PMs on SBR aren't private

[fearless]

I sent a message to another poster asking if I could buy points (which I didn't know was against the rules as it's only posted in the point forum where I never go).

Then I get this message from Willie Bee:

Subject: re: selling/buying points

"Friendly reminder. Even asking for off-site contact info from this time on is going to cause the system to flag your PMs...WB"

Private messages on this site aren't private in any way, shape, or form.

I had never done anything on this site to warrant having my PMs read. I never chat via PM. If they're monitoring my so called "private messages" then this site has no privacy whatsoever.

[onthewhat]

Lol @ the system "flagging" certain pm's

They read all of them, this is a fact. Its also old news

[Mikail]

Thanks for the heads up. I wasn't aware of this, and I'm sure many aren't as well! I think that it's misleading then to call the Private messages. Maybe just change them to person to person messages would be more appropriate!

[Bread]

All I took from this is that you're conceding that you are gonna have to scramble to come up with a bunch of points to pay me off.

[fearless]

Thanks for the heads up. I wasn't aware of this, and I'm sure many aren't as well! I think that it's misleading then to call the Private messages. Maybe just change them to person to person messages would be more appropriate!

That's exactly what I'm saying. Stop using the term "private messages" because it's a total lie.

[RogueScholar]

This, sadly, is old news Fearless. SBR has long had a policy that anything we say on THEIR site is their property and they aren't going to feel bad about viewing it all, even at the expense of our privacy. This is a major factor in why I remain so critical of them, because I feel respect is given where respect is shown, and that doesn't seem to be part of their morality. Mods have an invisible mode in Chat so they can read what we say in realtime without our knowledge and all chat PMs are automatically displayed to every Mod present (visible or not). The PMs on the site are certainly read more closely than they let on, an algorithym isn't going to flag all the stuff they catch.

Just keep in mind that we are cattle to them, they feed us and give us treats to keep up happy so that our losses can keep lining our pockets and our private thoughts can entertain them at the office. It's a very mercenary approach they take to their posters/contributors and we would be well-served to keep that in mind at all times.

[Deuce]

It's a privately owned site, what do you expect? Protecting themselves is all.

[fearless]

This, sadly, is old news Fearless. SBR has long had a policy that anything we say on THEIR site is their property and they aren't going to feel bad about viewing it all, even at the expense of our privacy. This is a major factor in why I remain so critical of them, because I feel respect is given where respect is shown, and that doesn't seem to be part of their morality. Mods have an invisible mode in Chat so they can read what we say in realtime without our knowledge and all chat PMs are automatically displayed to every Mod present (visible or not). The PMs on the site are certainly read more closely than they let on, an algorithym isn't going to flag all the stuff they catch.

Just keep in mind that we are cattle to them, they feed us and give us treats to keep up happy so that our losses can keep lining our pockets and our private thoughts can entertain them at the office. It's a very mercenary approach they take to their posters/contributors and we would be well-served to keep that in mind at all times.

I've been here for years and I didn't know. I won't use PMs again except for communicating with mods for contests.

It's funny one of my other favorite forums is exactly the same, total tyranny, total fascism but people stay because there's no other place like it. I should just come here to discuss games and for contests, so little of what goes on here is productive anyway.

[jellobiafra]

...our private thoughts can entertain them at the office.

This would be the the summation of my disgust in a nutshell. I've had several candid conversations with a few posters via pm that I would have never conducted knowing that these slobs were eavesdropping on my every word.

Scholar I'd give you points for this post, but I know you are one of the few people who possibly give less of a shit about them than I.

[themajormt]

SBR is ultimately trying to prevent people soliciting other posters... Keep in mind you are on a GAMBLING forum, where touts and fly by night books are rampant.

[fearless]

It's a privately owned site, what do you expect? Protecting themselves is all.

There should be disclaimer! God only knows what private information is being shared. A mod even sent me a message with very personal information once.

The disclaimer should read, very simply:

Private messages on this site aren't private. Anything you say can and will be used against you.

How can people brush that off as unimportant? The right to privacy is paramount always. There must be a disclaimer if private messages aren't private.

[fearless]

This would be the the summation of my disgust in a nutshell. I've had several candid conversations with a few posters via pm that I would have never conducted knowing that these slobs were eavesdropping on my every word.

Scholar I'd give you points for this post, but I know you are one of the few people who possibly give less of a shit about them than I.

I think what they're doing without giving a disclaimer is morally reprehensible. It's totally unethical and it's totally against American values. It's in opposition to basic human rights.

But, they can undo all those faults with a simple disclaimer:

Private messages on this site aren't private. Anything you say can and will be used against you.

[Willie Bee]

I think what they're doing without giving a disclaimer is morally reprehensible. It's totally unethical and it's totally against American values. It's in opposition to basic human rights.

Quite a different attitude from the reply you gave me: "I wasn't aware that buying points was against the rules because I never go to the points forum. Thanks for letting me know."

By the way, we have the info posted twice on the site, you know, just so we don't trample on "basic human rights."

This is what you agreed to when you first registered:

http://forum.sbrforum.com/register.php
With respect to SBR Forum's Private Message feature, SBR's intentions have always been to maintain and respect the privacy of users’ private messages. However, reports of abuse or misuse will be investigated. When evidence of wrongdoing is found (abusive messages to other posters, soliciting other users for referral bonuses, attempts to sell picks or any other form of solicitation, etc.), appropriate action will be taken. This includes having PM privileges revoked and possible removal from SBR Forum. In order to retain the PM feature for responsible forum posters, SBR staff will review PMs on a regular basis to ensure users abide by our terms of service.

This is what is included in our FAQ:

http://forum.sbrforum.com/faq.php
Be advised that PMs are routinely monitored in order to protect SBR and the posters. Private messages may not be used for any commercial or illegal activity, nor can they be used to recruit SBR posters to other websites. If and when these violations in our terms of service occur, PM privileges will be revoked.

[jjgold]

We watch everything here, we need to protect the site. I might give Willy Bee a Silver Missile via management tonight.

Missiles are perks that employees get when then do something very productive for the company.

[onthewhat]

Amazing how Soprano ran an operation here under such high security

The guy knew what he was doing and I give him respect for it. SBR got played on that one.

[Mikail]

I can understand protecting the site. I also can understand watching out for soliciting by posters. Calling them Private messages is misleading though. You know that 99% of people don't read the FAQ when they sign up!

[fearless]

Quite a different attitude from the reply you gave me: "I wasn't aware that buying points was against the rules because I never go to the points forum. Thanks for letting me know."

It's not a different attitude. I was happy that you told me of this rule, I didn't know about. Meanwhile my blood was boiling and I was in shock.

[RogueScholar]

This would be the the summation of my disgust in a nutshell. I've had several candid conversations with a few posters via pm that I would have never conducted knowing that these slobs were eavesdropping on my every word.

Scholar I'd give you points for this post, but I know you are one of the few people who possibly give less of a shit about them than I.

How right you are, my friend.

[Willie Bee]

You know that 99% of people don't read the FAQ when they sign up!

So then if I don't look at the speed limit sign, I can drive any speed I want to? Every new signup also gets an e-mail from me directing them to check out the FAQ. Are we supposed to send a mod over to their home and read it to them like a bedtime story?

[fearless]

I can understand protecting the site. I also can understand watching out for soliciting by posters. Calling them Private messages is misleading though. You know that 99% of people don't read the FAQ when they sign up!

Right. They've covered themselves in the fine print. Something so important shouldn't just be in the fine print though.

PMs should not be called private messages here and there should be reminders in the PM area that messages aren't private. I'm in total agreement with you.

[lakerboy]

So then if I don't look at the speed limit sign, I can drive any speed I want to? Every new signup also gets an e-mail from me directing them to check out the FAQ. Are we supposed to send a mod over to their home and read it to them like a bedtime story?

[RogueScholar]

Amazing how Soprano ran an operation here under such high security

The guy knew what he was doing and I give him respect for it. SBR got played on that one.

They didn't get played, they made a conscious decision to turn a blind eye because Soprano was bringing in traffic and keeping numbers up. He was one of their most profilic posters even in slow times and their corporate myopia wouldn't allow them to see past next month's Alexa rankings in site traffic.

Dozer made a conscious decision that turning off Soprano's PMs and chat privileges would give him plausible deniability about TSop's operation, and it backfired. It turned several people into spokesmen, and others into shills, and fractured the site in a way we still haven't recovered from. But you can't give TSop credit for duping them, they knew at the outset what he was doing and because he averaged 20k posts a year, he got special treatment. TSop's not that smart, neither is SBR.

[Mikail]

So then if I don't look at the speed limit sign, I can drive any speed I want to? Every new signup also gets an e-mail from me directing them to check out the FAQ. Are we supposed to send a mod over to their home and read it to them like a bedtime story?

We forgot the "Golden rule"... You have to read the fine print!!!

[fearless]

They didn't get played, they made a conscious decision to turn a blind eye because Soprano was bringing in traffic and keeping numbers up. He was one of their most profilic posters even in slow times and their corporate myopia wouldn't allow them to see past next month's Alexa rankings in site traffic.

Dozer made a conscious decision that turning off Soprano's PMs and chat privileges would give him plausible deniability about TSop's operation, and it backfired. It turned several people into spokesmen, and others into shills, and fractured the site in a way we still haven't recovered from. But you can't give TSop credit for duping them, they knew at the outset what he was doing and because he averaged 20k posts a year, he got special treatment. TSop's not that smart, neither is SBR.

Now I can see why you got so many votes for poster of the year. Nice!

[onthewhat]

Willie, thats funny.

I can't remember how many times in dispute resolution that SBR states that a bogus condition buried in a books TOS shouldn't apply because most players do not read it, and thus if it is absurd and not industry standard, the policy shouldn't be used by the book.

I'd say that reading PM's is not "industry standard"...you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[jellobiafra]

Scholar it's a good thing you didn't make it to the Bash. You might have found yourself going for a ride out in the desert.

[SSLP]

Nazis

[SBR_John]

Thats a rather over thought theory RS, but an entertaining one.

We needed a way to monitor the PM system to keep out illegal activity, hustlers and spam. No one reads the 1000's of PMs. But different key words are searched for. We have been able to keep countless snake oil salesmen away from posters.

[RogueScholar]

Scholar it's a good thing you didn't make it to the Bash. You might have found yourself going for a ride out in the desert.

SBR has made it very clear that my comments and exposé reporting is nothing more than the buzzing of a gnat to them while they count their hundreds of thousands in sportsbook kickbacks every year. I'm sure had I made it to the Bash I would've been treated very kindly by everyone there, and that really had very little to do with my decision to attend.

I do think it's important to have someone like me around in an autocratically governed community such as this so people are able to hear both sides of the story. Obviously SBR has a vested interest in keeping the kiss-asses front and center, and I just try to temper that with my understanding of how SBR is arriving at these decisions that affect us all.

I like this site, and I especially like the posters who make it what it is, but the fact that they operate in a very shady niche of an even shadier industry sometimes colours their judgment. All I want to do is shine a little light.

[StraitShooter]

Lotsa quality post in this thread

[TexansFan]

Just send an e-mail instead of a pm. Wouldn't that work?

[RogueScholar]

Thats a rather over thought theory RS, but an entertaining one.

We needed a way to monitor the PM system to keep out illegal activity, hustlers and spam. No one reads the 1000's of PMs. But different key words are searched for. We have been able to keep countless snake oil salesmen away from posters.

So John are you unequivocally saying that TSop was smart enough to never use a single keyword in your PM monitor in conducting his operation with other posters? That just seems impossible considering Fearless was just intruded upon for a much more inocuous conversation regarding a feature of your site that you promote heavily.

We know Soprano was taking bets in February, and we know he lost his PM/chat privileges 6-8 weeks later. We also know that you said that SBR has a zero-tolerance policy for forum bookies a few months after that. Can we infer that you knew, at least when you turned off his PMs, that he was making book and yet chose not to banish him because of the rate at which he posted and the sheer size of his client list at that time? I think we can. The timeline just doesn't add up, nor does your insistence that the PMs are investigated equally for every poster.

[Mikail]

Just send an e-mail instead of a pm. Wouldn't that work?

Jackpot!!!

[fearless]

Just send an e-mail instead of a pm. Wouldn't that work?

First you've got to find a way to get your email address to other people. I have to chuckle when I think about Curious (who was banned from PMs) leaving his email address all over the place, it was usually deleted within a few minutes.

[TexansFan]

First you've got to find a way to get your email address to other people. I have to chuckle when I think about Curious (who was banned from PMs) leaving his email address all over the place, it was usually deleted within a few minutes.

I believe you can have any pm sent to you directly to your e-mail acct. I would guess though that since it was sent by pm it could still be read.