What Happened To Basketball Skills And Talent?

C-Gold · 03-13-11, 06:43 PM

Look at a team like UNC or Kentucky. They play street ball. These guys just want to run up and down the court and have cool dunks to make sports center and then roll on to the NBA.

Duke plays more fundamental basketball. A thunderous or alley oop dunk is worth 2 points just like a Brian Kelly 12 foot jump shot. Guess who makes more mistakes trying to bring the house down with a dunk?

If I'm an athletic director I'm hiring a coach that won't put up with the AND 1 street ball bullshit and let the inmates run the asylum. Coach needs to lay down the law and teach the kids the game.

Pauulzcappin · 03-13-11, 09:02 PM

Watch Stephen curry play.

bradthebloke · 03-13-11, 09:35 PM

they dont care about fundamentals. just a bunch of show boats and attention whores

UntilTheNDofTimE · 03-13-11, 09:42 PM

This is actually one of the best young generations in the last 25 years.

MB · 03-13-11, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by UntilTheNDofTimE

This is actually one of the best young generations in the last 25 years.

Don't get me wrong, there's talented players. Will they play the team game and reach their full potential?

UntilTheNDofTimE · 03-13-11, 09:46 PM

Only 96-98 has been a better showing since the 03-06 gen. Not many players will flourish in first 3 years even if they play 4 years of college. Imo u dont even judge for 5 years.

teaserpleaser · 03-13-11, 09:47 PM

talent and skills are great but i'd be happy if these kids could just make their free throws. nothing more frustrating than missing an over by 4 or 6 points and there are 20 missed free throws.

ttwarrior1 · 03-13-11, 09:50 PM

i agree then you can argue why isn't adam morrison playing in the nba or jj reddick a superstar.reddick had to change his game just to play.

If american players were taught like the foreign ones it would help. They don't practice freethrow shooting and can't shoot unless they jump.

Thats why you can have a few veteran players like steve nash , andre miller, etc hang around and play till there 40 if they want. Alot of these guys in the developmental league all wish they stayed in college now

dollarbill · 03-13-11, 11:59 PM

Unless the NBA/NFL go from 30 to 20 Teams in their leagues the talent will be s it is today and the game will get worse. Everything changes and ends.

Watch for the team coached by Fischer in the NCAA tourney

The Madcap · 03-14-11, 12:17 AM

It has to do with AAU ball.

There are a lot of coaches in AAU ball that hope they can make it rich by becoming the "father I never had" coach of these young kids, and then steering them to a school for a "price," or hoping these kids make it rich in the NBA and take care of them. And so from a young age these kids are pampered and fawned all over bu AAU coaches, who realize that at such a young age pure size/athleticism tops all but the very best coaches teams, and thus emphasis is placed on assembling talent instead of developing it. And so the most gifted players who are used to having their asses kissed all day long since they are in middle school, are less and less receptive to "boring" practices like learning fundamentals. And in order to placate these pouting spoiled brats, the coaches spend more time trying to figure out how to work in ally-opp dunks in their offensive sets.

This more than anything else is why guys like Coach K, whose philosophy is centered around team defense and fundamentals, recruit kids like the Plumlee brothers, Ryan Kelly, Lance Thomas, Brian Zoubek, etc, who rarely ever get recruited by teams like Kansas, Kentucky, UCONN, Syracuse, or Texas. And when Coach K does recruit good athletes, they are generally kids like Grant Hill, Jason Williams, Nolan Smith, or Gerald Henderson who come from strong families where discipline and strong paternalistic support isn't a foreign concept.

The drawback is that even the best coaching can't always over come raw talent. And this is why so many Duke players flame out in the NBA, and why Duke frequently loses to very athletic teams but hardly ever loses to other "well-coached" teams.

makaveli66 · 03-14-11, 12:21 AM

It's definitely changed alot. I'm old school and I got game and always will. I wish I could go back to the time of Larry Bird running things always.

YOUNGBUCK · 03-14-11, 12:29 AM

Kids are crazy talented today these showboats is just how they grew up everyone loved jordan I hated that clown every kid thats a mcdonalds all american jumps like he did its a different game kids are freaks now who woulda stopped durant in old school ball its harder to play d now w. How fast and strong these kids are

beerman2619 · 03-14-11, 01:26 AM

Watch Duke play

ha wtf. Who wants to watch a bunch of white guys that don't amount to crap in the NBA. Yeah Duke is fun to watch coach K crying on the sidelines for calls and having his players flop for charges. Good god i get sick of the Duke talk ha BUCK DUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Madcap · 03-14-11, 01:46 AM

Originally posted by beerman2619

Who wants to watch a bunch of white guys that don't amount to crap in the NBA.

Champions I guess.

People who would rather see their team win than lose running up and down the floor like a bunch of clueless jackasses.

Is it possible, really, is it possible for you sour puss sore loser babies to see anything the least bit positive directed towards Duke without whining about it?

Recruiting white kids who don't amount to crap in the NBA is often how you win in college.

You know, guys like,

Jeff Lebo
Pete Chillcutt
Joe Wolf
Pat Sullivan
Kevin Salvadori
Dave Popson
Pete Budko
Buzz Peterson
Matt Doherty
Eric Montross

Do you recognize those names? No probably not. Because you're an idiot Tar Hole more concerned about trashing Duke than knowing your own damn team's traditions.

McBa1n · 03-14-11, 02:22 AM

Basketball suffered with the "Jordan" rules. There's dickloads of rules that make the game more about slashing type players and travelers. Crap, if they called traveling correctly, hoops would be better straight away.
I enjoyed watching the Celtics/6rs/Lakers Battles of the early 80s - to me, that is basketball. All this Lebron and Kobe garbage and overhype and marketing is all part of the Jordan's demolition of hoops via influence and a moronic commissioner.

College ball is way way better as the players spend more time in school and learn how to play in an offense (and learn how to play defense). Personally, I cannot watch the NBA. If I wanted to see dunks and layups primarily, I'd just go and watch warm ups. It just seems all the rules are designed to make the game all about that crap.
College, on the other hand, is way more entertaining. A well coached team will almost always beat a team that has 'one nba' guy. In fact, I love watching the 'one and done' college players get to the tournament and get their crap handed to them by some school like Manhattan or Long Beach State or Bucknell or something. The game is just more interesting, although, they do not call traveling enough. Traveling makes games stupid.

Goat Milk · 03-14-11, 03:05 AM

I have never been a fan of college basketball. I enjoy watching sports for the entertainment, guys doing things that I am not capable of doing. I want to watch the best players in the world going at it. I want to watch a guy like Bryant that puts his soul into basketball. A guy that is the best player in the world and still works his ass off everyday, improving his game.

Why eat food from a just good restaurant if you have the chance (hypothetically) of eating the food prepared by an Iron Chef?

College ball is passing the ball around for 35 seconds until you can find an open jumpshot or guy under the basket. There is no creativity, no explosiveness. The guys that people hail as the best scorers in the country--a guy like JJ redick, is just an average player in the nba, still coming off the bench now x years into his career.

I can see why people enjoy the tournament, the competitiveness. The idea that they are playing for their schools and not money. But then you take a guy like Carmello that dominated the NCAA in his freshman year. Had he stayed all 4 years, I firmly believe that his team would win 3 national titles. On the other hand, I believe Carmello has a very slim chance to even win 1 title in the NBA.

In college you can have one superstar on your team and he can get you very far. Hakeem Warrick was the next best player on the Syracuse team and he is just an average player in the NBA.

There is also a mental aspect of the nba that goes way deeper. These guys like Evan Turner might be big shots in college but in a playoff game where everything is magnified in the NBA he may not be ready to handle the pressure.

Think about game 7 of last years NBA finals--a fukkin classic--a straight up sluggfest between two heavyweights. You don't see that kind of physicality in college and never will. Think about the mental aspect. Lakers being down 5 or whatever with about 3 minutes to go. If Fisher misses that 3 with a few minutes left, or artest misses his 3 with under a minute left, Boston would be the NBA champs right now. That is what I enjoy. The will and tenacity of the NBA.

While there is a want to win in the NCAA with these young guys, there is a NEED to win in the NBA for guys like Kobe Bryant. That is true passion. Playing with emotion is not what passion is about. Its about not settling for anything.

Goat Milk · 03-14-11, 03:05 AM

i realize I wrote quite a bit and not many will read it lol

cockblocker · 03-14-11, 03:21 AM

Originally posted by Goat Milk

i realize I wrote quite a bit and not many will read it lol

I read it, pretty good post.

dynamite140 · 03-14-11, 03:24 AM

not much skills for sure

shari91 · 03-14-11, 03:52 AM

Originally posted by Goat Milk

i realize I wrote quite a bit and not many will read it lol

That was an excellent post.

The Madcap · 03-14-11, 04:34 AM

Originally posted by Goat Milk

I have never been a fan of college basketball. I enjoy watching sports for the entertainment, guys doing things that I am not capable of doing. I want to watch the best players in the world going at it. I want to watch a guy like Bryant that puts his soul into basketball. A guy that is the best player in the world and still works his ass off everyday, improving his game.

Why eat food from a just good restaurant if you have the chance (hypothetically) of eating the food prepared by an Iron Chef?

College ball is passing the ball around for 35 seconds until you can find an open jumpshot or guy under the basket. There is no creativity, no explosiveness. The guys that people hail as the best scorers in the country--a guy like JJ redick, is just an average player in the nba, still coming off the bench now x years into his career.

I can see why people enjoy the tournament, the competitiveness. The idea that they are playing for their schools and not money. But then you take a guy like Carmello that dominated the NCAA in his freshman year. Had he stayed all 4 years, I firmly believe that his team would win 3 national titles. On the other hand, I believe Carmello has a very slim chance to even win 1 title in the NBA.

In college you can have one superstar on your team and he can get you very far. Hakeem Warrick was the next best player on the Syracuse team and he is just an average player in the NBA.

There is also a mental aspect of the nba that goes way deeper. These guys like Evan Turner might be big shots in college but in a playoff game where everything is magnified in the NBA he may not be ready to handle the pressure.

Think about game 7 of last years NBA finals--a fukkin classic--a straight up sluggfest between two heavyweights. You don't see that kind of physicality in college and never will. Think about the mental aspect. Lakers being down 5 or whatever with about 3 minutes to go. If Fisher misses that 3 with a few minutes left, or artest misses his 3 with under a minute left, Boston would be the NBA champs right now. That is what I enjoy. The will and tenacity of the NBA.

While there is a want to win in the NCAA with these young guys, there is a NEED to win in the NBA for guys like Kobe Bryant. That is true passion. Playing with emotion is not what passion is about. Its about not settling for anything.

I see what you're saying, but try looking at it this way:

There are 30 teams in the NBA. There are 300 Division I college basketball teams. This means the talent is spread out and dispersed. And that's why the collection of talent in the NBA seems so superior.

JJ Redick: He's an average player in the NBA because he's not the focal point of his team. If NBA teams actually used more "team" concepts to set up shots like they do for one another in college, Redick could easily average 20 pts a game. (Just like Reggie Miller used to.)

Take a look at Richard Hamilton's stats. There's a distinct reason his shooting percentages have dropped in recent seasons, and it's due to the team no longer being committed to running sets and screens to specifically work him open. When shooters have to take it upon themselves to create their own shot, they are never as effective. And that's why Redick is average in the NBA and Hamilton is fast declining.

I agree that in many college games you don't see the physicality like you see in the NBA Finals. But this has more to do with scheduling than anything else. Physicality builds up over the course of a 7 game series. You can get more comfortable with the speed and pace of your opponent, and players can lock down on one another in a more physical way with the refs just letting it go. By the third game everyone knows what to expect from an officiating standpoint, and so they can play with more instinctive aggression. Whereas in college, you spend the first ten minutes of each half trying to conform your play to the standards of the refs. So there's more hesitancy and holding back.

But even despite the difference, you can't tell me that Duke-UNC games lack physicality and true passion. Same with Missouri-Kansas or Kentucky-Louisville. In college basketball those big rivalry games are the closest thing they can get to the emotion that builds up over the course of a playoff series. And don't get me wrong, that's why the NBA playoffs rock. (Same with an NHL series. Never seen anything more dramatic in my life than a Game 7 in the NHL playoffs.)

But the problem is that while the NBA can rock during the Finals, the regular season is crap because so often the players are saving themselves for the playoffs or just going through the motions. In college the games mean more on a nightly basis, and so there are more meaningful and spirited contests throughout the season.

Not saying the NBA doesn't have it's moments, but save for a few key games throughout the season, most of those moments are only found in the playoffs. I can find a great college game just about any night I turn on the TV.

The Madcap · 03-14-11, 04:46 AM

Originally posted by McBa1n

Basketball suffered with the "Jordan" rules. There's dickloads of rules that make the game more about slashing type players and travelers. Crap, if they called traveling correctly, hoops would be better straight away.
I enjoyed watching the Celtics/6rs/Lakers Battles of the early 80s - to me, that is basketball. All this Lebron and Kobe garbage and overhype and marketing is all part of the Jordan's demolition of hoops via influence and a moronic commissioner.

College ball is way way better as the players spend more time in school and learn how to play in an offense (and learn how to play defense). Personally, I cannot watch the NBA. If I wanted to see dunks and layups primarily, I'd just go and watch warm ups. It just seems all the rules are designed to make the game all about that crap.
College, on the other hand, is way more entertaining. A well coached team will almost always beat a team that has 'one nba' guy. In fact, I love watching the 'one and done' college players get to the tournament and get their crap handed to them by some school like Manhattan or Long Beach State or Bucknell or something. The game is just more interesting, although, they do not call traveling enough. Traveling makes games stupid.

Yeah, I get that feeling too.

There's another part of it that no one else ever seems to notice and I wonder if you've picked up on it.....

In most of the smaller college stadiums the camera angles provide more of an overhead view, whereas in these giant pro arenas the camera is stationed lower to the ground, making the angle flatter. This makes the view of a pro game squished together, whereas in college you can see more of the spacing, and arc/ebb/flow of movement. I think this makes a huge difference as to why so many people claim they see more beauty in the college game than the pro game, you can actually see what's going on better.

I even feel like old NBA games are better to watch than new ones because of this. Or maybe that's just me.

jjgold · 03-14-11, 05:22 AM

I agree with Goat Milk, I am not a huge fan of college sports because its just not as intense as pro sports

College Hoops would boom again if you had to stay in school 3 years before leaving

College Hoops coaches are now afraid of the players and they cater to them

Lack of discipline and a lower class America also is why you see pitiful skills

cleaveland · 03-14-11, 05:34 AM

I think John Wall and Blake Griffin are totally old-school, I think they would have fit in any era: 50s, 60s, etc. and there are other great young players who play the right way. In fact, I like watching Wall and Griffin play just because they are so fundamentally sound and old-school. The situation isn't as bad as what you're saying.

C-Gold · 03-14-11, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by The Madcap

Champions I guess.

People who would rather see their team win than lose running up and down the floor like a bunch of clueless jackasses.

Is it possible, really, is it possible for you sour puss sore loser babies to see anything the least bit positive directed towards Duke without whining about it?

Recruiting white kids who don't amount to crap in the NBA is often how you win in college.

You know, guys like,

Jeff Lebo
Pete Chillcutt
Joe Wolf
Pat Sullivan
Kevin Salvadori
Dave Popson
Pete Budko
Buzz Peterson
Matt Doherty
Eric Montross

Do you recognize those names? No probably not. Because you're an idiot Tar Hole more concerned about trashing Duke than knowing your own damn team's traditions.

An Alley oop dunk is worth the same as a 15 foot jumper. Duke is very well coached and the team will make less mistakes.

Watch a shot go up and WATCH the 5 duke defenders seek out a guy to box out to make sure they get the defensive rebound. Watch their help defense. The team is built right. Coach K gets guys, keeps them for years, and builds a TEAM. Smart players.

Then watch Kentucky or UNC play street ball. Cool highlight dunk followed by a behind the back pass that goes right out of bounds. Who cares. The behind the back pass won't make sports center but the highlight dunk will.

soli · 03-14-11, 08:34 PM

The talent is still there but the rules have changed the game.

k13 · 03-14-11, 08:56 PM

That's why college basketball is better to watch/follow, nba is good for a couple series in the playoffs, that's about it.

Once you get paid, very few give a shit, just get by on their natural talent.