No Pennies For Elderly & Disabled But Tax Breaks For The Rich?

[GoldenYAK]

One of the great misconceptions held by liberals when it comes to ecomomics is that they see our country's wealth as a pie with only so much to go around.

It's the myth of infinite wealth that confuses people.

It is that erroneous vision which makes libs believe that the only way people get ahead is at the expense of others - that wealth is a zero sum game - that if someone else gets more it means they get less.

In 1976, 99% of us owned 80% of the wealth, today thanks to reganomics/trickle down/neocon fiscal policies, 99% of us only own 53% of all wealth.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that giving tax cuts to companies who outsourced jobs may have a detrimental effect on the economy. Yet Bush did it anyways.

For people who generally consider themselves so smart - it's pretty ironic that they hold such a simlpistic, misguided perception and exhibit such a complete lack of understanding of free market economics. The fact is that when a market is allowed to operate free of oppressive government interference/regulation/taxation the pie grows - and more pies are produced. Economic freedom offers a value proposition for all participants and America has been the greatest bakery in world history when it comes to producing pie. All we have to do is not let liberals f\*\*k it up.

We have 19% unemployment and sky high income inequality. Are you blind? Clearly your pie baking analogy, like trickle down economics, is complete and utter stupidity. Fox news is not news, it's entertainment.

[ericc]

Income Extra Taxes $50,000 : $0 $250,000 : $2,344 $500,000 : $11,866 $1,000,000 : $34,866 $20,000,000 : $908,866 oh no the guy making 250k wont be able to send his kids to college...that extra $2,000 will really sting omg the guy making 500k a year wont be able to feed his family....that $11k really going to hurt oh Jesus the millionaire will have to give up 34k and his family will be homeless...they might even be at the soup kitchen

What about the accountants and lawyers that will be employed to hide that income and evade those taxes. Them are high paying jobs not this crummy 'livable wages.'

[BeatingBaseball]

To Yak, Tsonga, golf. GrandB et al -

Only one question, fellas:

If you are right and we are wrong about free markets and limited government being the greatest engine of prosperity for all -

Why is it that all of human history so totally reinforces our position - and so totally repudiates yours?

[Hotdiggity11]

To Yak, Tsonga, golf. GrandB et al -

Only one question, fellas:

If you are right and we are wrong about free markets and limited government being the greatest engine of prosperity for all -

Why is it that all of human history so totally reinforces our position - and so totally repudiates yours?

Name one country that has a completely free unregulated market and a small government [Which is a pretty vague term] that is currently prosperous?

[guitarjosh]

Name one country that has a completely free unregulated market and a small government [Which is a pretty vague term] that is currently prosperous?

Completely free? Do you mean anarchy?

[Hotdiggity11]

No, I'm talking about a complete Laissez Faire market.

[guitarjosh]

Well there will be some regulation in a Laissez-faire market. A business can't dump their trash on my property.

[The Madcap]

Name one country that has a completely free unregulated market and a small government [Which is a pretty vague term] that is currently prosperous?

That's like me saying Chevys are the most dependable trucks on the road but only after going around and rounding up all the Ford's and hauling them to the dump.

The question shouldn't be name one country that is currently prosperous, but to name one country, anywhere throughout the history of time, that had limited government and a free market, and WASN'T prosperous.

Just because the cry-babies and their sympathizers eventually find a way to screw everything up, and I'm not just saying economies here, I'm talking fireworks, Little League Baseball, V8 engines, toy guns, you name it, just because the weenies are big enough whiners and politicians are corrupt whores doesn't mean limited government and free markets aren't the best way to go.

From the ancient Greeks, to the Romans, the Ming Dynasty and the United States, all throughout history, where you find the most prosperous civilizations, you find free markets. And these great civilizations only faltered after expanding the size and scope of government and abandoning the free market.

Meanwhile, on the other end of the spectrum, you've got the breadlines of the U.S.S.R., the starvation in North Korea, Cubans fleeing like free agents from the Astros, the growing instability in Venezuela, and the general economic stagnation of Latin America/Europe and any other region that embraces large government intervention in the economy.

And how about Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Angola, and all the rest that turned around their fortunes shortly after opening up their markets?

[BeatingBaseball]

The phrase "limited government" is not "vague" in any way whatsoever.

Quite to the contrary.

It is actually defined quite clearly in a document with which many of you would be well advised to familiarize yourself - it's called The U. S. Constitution.

I know that some of you think you have better ideas, but the guys who wrote it were actually pretty smart.

[Tsonga]

To Yak, Tsonga, golf. GrandB et al -

Only one question, fellas:

If you are right and we are wrong about free markets and limited government being the greatest engine of prosperity for all -

Why is it that all of human history so totally reinforces our position - and so totally repudiates yours?

you can't be serious. you are now saying that all of human history works for you and against people who disagree with you? I see a lost cause here.

[BeatingBaseball]

you can't be serious. you are now saying that all of human history works for you and against people who disagree with you? I see a lost cause here.

You obviously don't have a choke hold on your World History, do you, T?

[rkelly110]

My personal opinion on too much govt and what they're doing with our money, is they
invent things to tax. The things they tax us on never goes away. They have all this
money they don't know what to do with, so they invent ways to spend it, instead
of dropping the taxes we don't need to pay.

Are the taxes we're paying on our alcohol and tobacco ever going away? Nope.

If we got a 10% cut in pay, it would hurt but, we would make cuts in our budget to
compensate. Not the govt, it's not their money, they could care less.

This lame duck session isn't making things any better either. Aren't these guys suppose
to be adults? They act like little kids in a candy store. I hope these tea party people
can make a difference.

[DwightShrute]

To Yak, Tsonga, golf. GrandB et al -

Only one question, fellas:

If you are right and we are wrong about free markets and limited government being the greatest engine of prosperity for all -

Why is it that all of human history so totally reinforces our position - and so totally repudiates yours?

You won't get any examples because there aren't any

[GoldenYAK]

None of history supports any part of your position. In fact, it actually supports the opposite.

In Athens they had a flat tax and that tax became too much of a burden on some segments of society. They fell and afterwards the moral argument for progressive taxation was created.

You can not have great fortune without a society supporting it (if you lived in a jungle with anarchy you wouldn't be able to own a home). The larger the fortune you have the larger your duty (tax burden) is to make sure the supporting society is taken care of. Right now we are poorer then ever because of regressive taxation, but we are feeling it because of free market principles of like deregulation that caused the financial crisis in the first place. Financial regulation was put in place after the 1929 crash for a reason. Conservative thinkers repealed that regulation and, 9 years later we are dealing with record high income inequality, a massive stock market crash, 19% unemployment, many thrown out of their homes etc..

Look at income tax rates,cap gains rate,corporate tax rate,estate tax rate etc.. all these were low before the great depression (like now)and they increased significantly after the great depression, when the rational voices of the the people were finally heard.

Back then people would have rioted if the congress had blocked middle class tax cuts because the tax cuts were also not extended to the top 1%. People back then had balls and forced congress to raise the top tax rate to 90% because they had common sense enough to know it was the activities of those people on wall street that caused the disaster in the first place. Today Americans are apathetic and misinformed most don't actually know the true history of America they only know what Fox disinformation and the rest of the right wing media tells them.

[The Madcap]

None of history supports any part of your position. In fact, it actually supports the opposite.

In Athens they had a flat tax and that tax became too much of a burden on some segments of society. They fell and afterwards the moral argument for progressive taxation was created.

You can not have great fortune without a society supporting it (if you lived in a jungle with anarchy you wouldn't be able to own a home). The larger the fortune you have the larger your duty (tax burden) is to make sure the supporting society is taken care of. Right now we are poorer then ever because of regressive taxation, but we are feeling it because of free market principles of like deregulation that caused the financial crisis in the first place. Financial regulation was put in place after the 1929 crash for a reason. Conservative thinkers repealed that regulation and, 9 years later we are dealing with record high income inequality, a massive stock market crash, 19% unemployment, many thrown out of their homes etc..

Look at income tax rates,cap gains rate,corporate tax rate,estate tax rate etc.. all these were low before the great depression (like now)and they increased significantly after the great depression, when the rational voices of the the people were finally heard.

Back then people would have rioted if the congress had blocked middle class tax cuts because the tax cuts were also not extended to the top 1%. People back then had balls and forced congress to raise the top tax rate to 90% because they had common sense enough to know it was the activities of those people on wall street that caused the disaster in the first place. Today Americans are apathetic and misinformed most don't actually know the true history of America they only know what Fox disinformation and the rest of the right wing media tells them.

You're going to blame a 'flat tax' for the fall of Greece and not even mention the Peloponnesian wars or Phillip II?

And last time I checked the eisphora was far from a flat tax. Nor was the leitourgia. Please, would you care to cite some evidence of an Athenian flax tax leading up to the fall of its Democracy?

You should brush up on your classical history. Athens went from a flat tax in 6th/7th century BC to a progressive tax in 4/5th century BC not the other way around. And this is what leads people to support a progressive tax and not a flat tax. But, of course, what they don't tell you is that the progressive tax gave the people greater tendency to engage in wasteful spending, which is of course what led to their society falling apart.

[Hotdiggity11]

The phrase "limited government" is not "vague" in any way whatsoever.

Quite to the contrary.

It is actually defined quite clearly in a document with which many of you would be well advised to familiarize yourself - it's called The U. S. Constitution.

I know that some of you think you have better ideas, but the guys who wrote it were actually pretty smart.

The people who wrote them also realized government goes beyond the Constitution. You know, like James Madison who opened up the Second BkofAma.


Tell me, should the federal government fund a national highway when the Constitution doesn't explicitly state such road outside of postal roads need to be maintained?

[jarrod]

well the elderly should be taken care of by their kids, but for elders without assistance need help. for the rich who create jobs cut their taxes.

[BeatingBaseball]

Yak -

It appears you have a fan - golfrulz seems to really dig your bullshit.

[The Madcap]

Yak -

It appears you have a fan - golfrulz seems to really dig your bullshit.

He's just doing that to try and piss me (and I guess you) off. Could be Yak, could be anybody, as long as I'm the target he's your fan. It'd be kind of flattering really if it wasn't so pathetic.

[BeatingBaseball]

It's a talent we share with Sarah Palin, Mad.

Pissing off liberals - it's what we do.

[guitarjosh]

You can not have great fortune without a society supporting it (if you lived in a jungle with anarchy you wouldn't be able to own a home).

That isn't really true. In a free society where a great fortune is made by legal means, great fortunes are amassed through mutual cooperation. Customers want to business with you because they like your product and price. So you are taking care of your ca part of society if you get a lot of wealth.

The larger the fortune you have the larger your duty (tax burden) is to make sure the supporting society is taken care of.

That is your opinion, but it is quite far from the truth. As I showed, the only legal way to create a great fortune is to take care of part of society.

Right now we are poorer then ever because of regressive taxation, but we are feeling it because of free market principles of like deregulation that caused the financial crisis in the first place.

We're poorer because of the Fed.

Financial regulation was put in place after the 1929 crash for a reason. Conservative thinkers repealed that regulation and, 9 years later we are dealing with record high income inequality, a massive stock market crash, 19% unemployment, many thrown out of their homes etc..

They should have regulated the Federal Reserve, that caused the depression

Look at income tax rates,cap gains rate,corporate tax rate,estate tax rate etc.. all these were low before the great depression (like now)and they increased significantly after the great depression, when the rational voices of the the people were finally heard.

They were all much lower then compared to now. In fact they were even lower 95 years ago and we didn't enter into a depression until the tax rates were raised for WW1. The top rate was 15% in 1916, and it went over 70% the next year. It stayed there through 1919, and in January 1920, we entered into a depression that started worse then the great depression.

People back then had balls and forced congress to raise the top tax rate to 90% because they had common sense enough to know it was the activities of those people on wall street that caused the disaster in the first place.

It was raised to over 90% because of wars. The code back then was much different. This seems to be a common problem with you, you always confuse the tax rate with the tax code. To cut taxes, the code was changed and loopholes and deductions were done away with. In 1985 the top rate was 50%, but they could write off credit card debt. Reagan lowered it to 28%, but did away with that deduction and many others. And, when the rate was over 90%, you had to make over 3 million in today's money. That would be a small fraction of the top 1%.

[sweethook]

You do realize everyone got a tax cut, right? And that the rich still pay the great majority of the taxes, and provide 90% of the jobs?

Idk about you guys, but I have NEVER gotten a job from a poor person

no the rich pay very little taxes to the fed. there to tight. its the 40 hour joe that spends the wheel and taxing the $ when it changes hands for the local areas as well.

[The Madcap]

It's a talent we share with Sarah Palin, Mad.

Pissing off liberals - it's what we do.

You know, I don't think Sarah Palin is the least bit qualified to be President, but if all my liberal friends and their colleagues are serious about moving out of the country if she gets elected, it's going to be real hard not to vote for her.

[rkelly110]

Last day for the Charity collection. Give what you can, even if it's one point.
Thank you.

[Tsonga]

Yak -

It appears you have a fan - golfrulz seems to really dig your bullshit.

And you have a fan in madcap.

[golfrulz]

And you have a fan in madcap.

lmaoooo

[golfrulz]

He's just doing that to try and piss me (and I guess you) off. Could be Yak, could be anybody, as long as I'm the target he's your fan. It'd be kind of flattering really if it wasn't so pathetic.

i can tolerate most of the reps on here however mr mad guy you are the worst. ya got no class. no heart. no smarts...and worst of all ya got to be the most boring poster in the history of this forum. you go on and on and on like some ex wife of mine....geez get a life or a wife or something else to occupy ur time.

[Data]

the current collapse engineered by Barney Frank and Chris Dodd with their Fannie/Freddie piggy bank

I disagree. I find Barney very reasonable on many issues and by no means he should be held responsible for the collaps which was engineered by by Big Al and later on carried over and extended by big Ben, both appointed by Bush the Idiot.

[BeatingBaseball]

I disagree. I find Barney very reasonable on many issues and by no means he should be held responsible for the collaps which was engineered by by Big Al and later on carried over and extended by big Ben, both appointed by Bush the Idiot.

I have great respect for your intelligence based on correspondence in the "tank," Data - but I guess we're 180 apart in this area.

I'm not a big fan of Greenspan either, but he was actually appointed (originally - to follow Paul Volcker) by the great Ronald Wilson Reagan.

As to Barney Frank - I sure hope you weren't in any way involved in that little operation he and his his "special friend" were running out of Barney's D.C. apartment.

[andywend]

GoldenYAK spouts on and on about how the rich aren't taxed enough and blames that for every single problem our country faces.

He acts like this because he has FAILED MISERABLY in every single thing he has ever set out to do.

He is insanely jealous of the rich and is pissed off beyond belief that they have so much while he has so very little.

The only way he is able to cope with his miserable lot in life is to criticize the rich and fill his tiny little mind with delusions that raising taxes on the rich would solve all of our countrys problems.

You can substitute GoldenYak with just about all left-wing whacko democrats and everything applies the same.

While GoldenYak's posts are extremely irritating to read, the great thing is that even when our country elects an extremely liberal democratic president in Barack Obama, the rich in this country still figure a way NOT to get fleeced.

GoldenYAK, you are an absolute LOSER from head to toe and the rich will continue to enjoy life to its fullest while you will continue to wallow in your misery and that is EXACTLY THE WAY IT SHOULD BE.

[Albert Pujols]

None of history supports any part of your position. In fact, it actually supports the opposite.

In Athens they had a flat tax and that tax became too much of a burden on some segments of society. They fell and afterwards the moral argument for progressive taxation was created.

You can not have great fortune without a society supporting it (if you lived in a jungle with anarchy you wouldn't be able to own a home). The larger the fortune you have the larger your duty (tax burden) is to make sure the supporting society is taken care of. Right now we are poorer then ever because of regressive taxation, but we are feeling it because of free market principles of like deregulation that caused the financial crisis in the first place. Financial regulation was put in place after the 1929 crash for a reason. Conservative thinkers repealed that regulation and, 9 years later we are dealing with record high income inequality, a massive stock market crash, 19% unemployment, many thrown out of their homes etc..

Look at income tax rates,cap gains rate,corporate tax rate,estate tax rate etc.. all these were low before the great depression (like now)and they increased significantly after the great depression, when the rational voices of the the people were finally heard.

Back then people would have rioted if the congress had blocked middle class tax cuts because the tax cuts were also not extended to the top 1%. People back then had balls and forced congress to raise the top tax rate to 90% because they had common sense enough to know it was the activities of those people on wall street that caused the disaster in the first place. Today Americans are apathetic and misinformed most don't actually know the true history of America they only know what Fox disinformation and the rest of the right wing media tells them.

Did you really just say that you agreed with a 90% tax bracket? Wow.

[andywend]

Did you really just say that you agreed with a 90% tax bracket? Wow

Albert, you shouldn't be surprised that GoldenYak favors a 90% tax bracket. He would strongly support a 99% tax bracket as long as it applied to every single person on the planet EXCEPT HIM.

Unfortunately, the vast, vast majority of liberal democrats think exactly the way he does. The only difference is GoldenYak is so jealous and bitter about the success of the wealthy, that he is more than willing to say it publicly.

[Tsonga]

He is insanely jealous of the rich and is pissed off beyond belief that they have so much while he has so very little.

While GoldenYak's posts are extremely irritating to read, the great thing is that even when our country elects an extremely liberal democratic president in Barack Obama, the rich in this country still figure a way NOT to get fleeced.

So you doubted the rich would get what they want? That was silly of you...a 'smart' 'rich' republican like yourself should know better. It matters not who is in power as long as you fund both sides.

Don't worry - the rich won't get 'fleeced'. Relieved now?

If that is your biggest worry than you need to find something else to worry about.


You do realize you need to create a straw man in goldenyak to attack? You really think because you say he is 'insanely jealous of the rich' and 'is pissed off beyond belief because he has so little' really means anything? Do you think you are really convincing 1 poster here in sbr of that?

[rkelly110]

That isn't really true. In a free society where a great fortune is made by legal means, great fortunes are amassed through mutual cooperation. Customers want to business with you because they like your product and price. So you are taking care of your ca part of society if you get a lot of wealth. That is your opinion, but it is quite far from the truth. As I showed, the only legal way to create a great fortune is to take care of part of society. We're poorer because of the Fed. They should have regulated the Federal Reserve, that caused the depression They were all much lower then compared to now. In fact they were even lower 95 years ago and we didn't enter into a depression until the tax rates were raised for WW1. The top rate was 15% in 1916, and it went over 70% the next year. It stayed there through 1919, and in January 1920, we entered into a depression that started worse then the great depression. It was raised to over 90% because of wars. The code back then was much different. This seems to be a common problem with you, you always confuse the tax rate with the tax code. To cut taxes, the code was changed and loopholes and deductions were done away with. In 1985 the top rate was 50%, but they could write off credit card debt. Reagan lowered it to 28%, but did away with that deduction and many others. And, when the rate was over 90%, you had to make over 3 million in today's money. That would be a small fraction of the top 1%.

I remember those days of figuring credit card interest, sales tax, child care,
state, local, property taxes and the like, pain in the ass.

I don't know if deductions were done away with for the high earners and
had their tax rate dropped also?

I'm in favor of keeping the taxes as they are, the govt needs to change
how they spend our money. They are like the banks, find more ways to
tax us or raise everyday taxes. Sure our Fed. taxes might stay the same
but, what about everyday items. Gas, phones, cigs, beer and the like?

Trouble is, those everyday items that are being taxed won't go down.
That's what pisses me off.

[andywend]

So you doubted the rich would get what they want? That was silly of you...a 'smart' 'rich' republican like yourself should know better. It matters not who is in power as long as you fund both sides.

Don't worry - the rich won't get 'fleeced'. Relieved now?

If that is your biggest worry than you need to find something else to worry about.

You do realize you need to create a straw man in goldenyak to attack? You really think because you say he is 'insanely jealous of the rich' and 'is pissed off beyond belief because he has so little' really means anything? Do you think you are really convincing 1 poster here in sbr of that?

Tsonga, it couldn't be more obvious that GoldenYak is jealous of the wealthy. If you haven't figured that out after reading his postings, then you're even more pathetic than I originally thought.

Since you are NOT a citizen of the United States, it serves no purpose to have a conversation with you about what is best for MY COUNTRY as its clear that you do NOT have the best interest of the United States at heart.

I am NOT at all interested in anything you have to say or any advice you have to give concerning what my country should do for the reason stated above.

I found it interesting that you said the following:

If that is your biggest worry than you need to find something else to worry about.

Perhaps you need to find something else to worry about as you are constantly chiming in about what the U.S. does even though you are not a U.S. citizen or even reside in the U.S.

FWIW, these are the facts concerning my country:
We have a $14 TRILLION DEFICIT on paper but our true deficit is closer to $50 or $60 TRILLION when taking into account all the unfunded liabilities of government programs like social security, medicare and my country's ridiculous bloated government worker pensions negotiated by blood sucking labor unions.

Even with this $14 TRILLION deficit stirring the politicans right in the face, they pass a new $1.1 TRILLION dollar atrocity which cuts taxes for everyone and sharply raises government spending. EVERY SINGLE POLITICIAN who voted in favor of this bill needs to be thrown out of office.

Taxes need to be RAISED for all Americans and government spending needs to be cut drastically and my country is doing the exact opposite. The only entity that seems to realize this is the Tea Party which has become my new political party of preference.