Should this player get paid?

[DamianDunlap]

I have an account there since March 2005

I deposited there 17 times and cashout 3 times , two of the cashouts were big. I have been playing there for about 3 month from opening the account.

One of them was more than a 1000 and processed with no problem then I made a much bigger one 13,137 GBP and they paid only my deposits back(around 3000) . They claim I am 19 years old, and although their casino accept player of 18 or above they have an additional term that if the country you are coming from allow 21 or more then the country law is the valid one.


I explained them that they could ban me long ago if they wish and also microgaming casinos has an automatic setting that once you are not in legal age it won't let you register but they do not pay.

I was surprise that this excuse convinced Bryan Bailey and also ecogra


All my explanations to ecogra and Bryan did not help here are some emails to show the case


Hi A,

Sorry, I thought I had responded to you. You're probably way out of luck here. It's the jurisdiction where you are residing in, not where the servers are. It's always been this way for any casino. This is why they have the statement "The casino is limited to individuals of legal age of majority in their jurisdiction (the "Player")" You can find this statement at most any casino and I've never heard of a complaint that referred to where the gaming servers are. If it were applicable to where the servers are, then there wouldn't be a need for statements like this. They would also be breaching local laws as well. Let's say that where the server is, 18 is the age of majority for gambling. But if you are a nineteen-year-old gambling in a state or country that requires you to be 21 - you're breaking the law regardless where the servers are. It's the act of gambling, not the transfer of electrons and images.

Hope this makes sense, but I think you're out of luck.

You said you contacted the casino earlier and told them you were only 20? Please send me a copy of this email. Thanks!@

Sincerely,

Bryan


Dear A



I have investigated your query with the casino and have found that the reason you have not been paid your full cash-in amounts is that the casino has determined that you have not reached the legal age to gamble in your jurisdiction, Las Vegas. As such the casino has followed their Terms and Conditions and voided all play on your account and refunded your deposits.



Both eCOGRA and the Casino are committed to Responsible Gaming and take the issue of under-age gambling very seriously. eCOGRA requires players to be of legal gambling age in their home jurisdictions . The casino’s Terms and Conditions reflect this and I have copied the relevant sections of this for you;



2. Limitations


The casino is limited to individuals of legal age of majority in their jurisdiction (the "Player"). You cannot play under any circumstances if you are not at least eighteen years of age, however, should the legal age of majority in your jurisdiction be older than eighteen - you shall abide by those restrictions. Participation in the activities and games (the "Game") of this casino are open only to residents of those jurisdictions where such participation is legal.



The Player understands that the Game is for entertainment value only. The Player understands and acknowledges that no purchase is necessary or required to play the Game. If a Player wishes to play without betting money, he/she may do so.



Employees of Belle Vegas Casino, its licensees, distributors, wholesalers, affiliates, subsidiaries, advertising, promotion or other agencies, media partners, retailers and members of the immediate families of each are not eligible to participate in the Game.



Any and all play by any ineligible person shall be voided, including any winnings accruing to any ineligible person.



3. Participation


Participation at this online casino is at the sole option, discretion and risk of the Player. In particular, determination of the legality of real money casino play is the Player's sole responsibility. By placing real wagers, the Player warrants that he/she is legally able to do so within his/her jurisdiction and that he/she accepts that Belle Vegas Casino is unable to provide any warranties as to the legality or validity of their participation in real money play.



Please be aware that it would be irresponsible for either the casino or eCOGRA to condone under-age gambling in any form once the players legal age has been determined.



If you have any questions regarding the contents of this email, please feel to contact me.



Kind Regards,

Tex Ree

Please read and give me your comments

http://mb.winneronline.com/showthread.html?t=23026

my user name is betthug in the thread

[juuso]

Utter crap from the casino. I thought the ecogra ones were really the best casinos but guess they can also resort to this kind of tactics when player wins a hefty sum. Not good at all

[Bill Dozer]

We receive complaints from players in similar situations. I could compare this to players who sign up with incorrect account details. For example, let's say a player is from Denmark and the book does not accept Danish players and doesn't have Denmark listed in their drop-down when filling out the sign-up form. The player might fill out all address details correctly but use a different country in the drop-down effectively becoming an active customer. The software doesn't check to make sure the city or zip matches the country.

The player might think well hey, if my money is at risk, its a bet, but what he has done is given the book a free shot at his money.

If the player blows out, he isn't getting a refund but if he ends up requesting a payout, accounting will verify account details manually and tell him he is not entitled to any winnings.

It looks like this is what happened here. He was able to play because the system let him but rules say he he can never cashout. A good book may pay the player whenever funds are legitimately risked and end the relationship there but most will say rules are rules.

If he lied or misinformed the book about his age there isn't even room for debate.

[marc]

I think the casino got lucky and found a way out of paying. I don't think there is any way you can fight them, because the rule is clearly marked in the T&c's. And if they claiming it would violate state law to pay, there is little that can be done. But had the player lost and come back to the casino requesting his money back, i also doubt that the player would be paid.

Iwas not aware that any jurisdiction had a minimumage for online gambling. Land casinos usually require players be 21. But just becaus eyou have to be 21 to go to a land casino doens't mean you have to be 21 to play online. Just as an example, I think you only have to be 18 to buy a lottery ticket

[DamianDunlap]

The casino is limited to individuals of legal age of majority in their jurisdiction (the "Player"). You cannot play under any circumstances if you are not at least eighteen years of age, however, should the legal age of majority in your jurisdiction be older than eighteen – you shall abide by those restrictions. Participation in the activities and games (the "Game") of this casino are open only to residents of those jurisdictions where such participation is legal.

He been playing there for months, over 16 depoists I believe, 3 cash outs, they stop the last one cause of the size and gave this reason not to pay him "its not legal in your jurisdiction" But the players is 18.

[raiders72001]

Does that give the right for a book not to pay US players because it's illegal in the US?

[isetcap]

This is not legit. The casino can't have it both ways. Their primary reasoning behind taking wagers from US playership (where gambling is illegal), is the claim that the wagers are transacting wherever their servers happen to be located. They have to pick one side or the other. The overlap resides in their T&C and this player will have a strong case if eCogra continues to maintain this stance.

It doesn't help that this player appears to have been somewhat less than forthcoming in revealing his details to management but ultimately that is not the issue in this case. Serious pressure should be applied on this casino to process this cashout. If they want to avoid a potentially serious situation, they should pay.

What is the name of this Microgaming establishment?

[DamianDunlap]

Participation at this online casino is at the sole option, discretion and risk of the Player. In particular, determination of the legality of real money casino play is the Player's sole responsibility. By placing real wagers, the Player warrants that he/she is legally able to do so within his/her jurisdiction and that he/she accepts that Bella Vegas Online is unable to provide any warranties as to the legality or validity of their participation in real money play.

So if you playing from USA, You might want get paid

[isetcap]

Does that give the right for a book not to pay US players because it's illegal in the US?

You've touched upon the major flaw in their reasoning.

[isetcap]

Ah, the lovely folks at Bella Vegas.

[SBR_John]

He been playing there for months, over 16 depoists I believe, 3 cash outs, they stop the last one cause of the size and gave this reason not to pay him "its not legal in your jurisdiction" But the players is 18.

You would think if they had any honor or even a molecule of business sense they couldnt pay him fast enough.

[isetcap]

As is the case with all T&C at online casinos, this essentially means the casino is well within its rights to not pay any US player who wins as the US does not allow online gambling. So you might ask, "Well why do they pay people in the US who win?" They pay them because the US is their most significant market by far and they make the majority of their money from US players. The last thing they want to do is alienate that market. They are HOPING this individual will just accept the crap they are feeding him and fade away.

[Dave]

I would like to know how many other players under 21 years of age that have played and lost that this casino did not refund. Do they pick and choose what under age players to pay or not pay? Lets say there are two 18 year olds, one deposits and looses his deposit, and another deposits but wins and requests a payout. Do they refund both players their original deposit? Or do they keep the losses of the one and not pay out the winnings to the other?

[isetcap]

You would think if they had any honor or even a molecule of business sense they couldnt pay him fast enough.

Correct!

Keep in mind Bella Vegas is somewhat of a loose cannon in the Microgaming world. They don't belong to part of a major established group yet they are aggressively pursuing growth. This is not a way to solidify their position.

[spanky]

scumbags found another loophole to try and steal customers money after they won.i wonder if they would have refunded his money had he lost.

[isetcap]

I would like to know how many other players under 21 years of age that have played and lost that this casino did not refund. Do they pick and choose what under age players to pay or not pay? Lets say there are two 18 year olds, one deposits and looses his deposit, and another deposits but wins and requests a payout. Do they refund both players their original deposit? Or do they keep the losses of the one and not pay out the winnings to the other?

This is the slippery slope of danger down which they slide if they continue to avoid payment of this player. At some point in time a legal case will be brought against them and then anyone who can prove they were underage at the time they deposited with them will be able to get their losses refunded based on this interpretation. It can't be one way for one individual but different for another. They are playing with fire.

[Aces]

Pay the guy. Raiders has a good point about sports wagers from the US being illegal which by this reasoning allows the book to welch on any account that was funded from the US.

[slacker00]

These prima/microgaming sites should be put under a microscope right now. Over on the poker forums, suddenly there are all kinds of similar slowplay/underpay/nopay situations cropping up in the last 30 days. Stay away from these sites, IMO.

[Dead Money]

Unreal..

They are saying we will take your money(17 deposits), but do not win to much.

If you win to much we will have to find a way to **** you up the ass.

I'm gald I leave near a casino cause when I have the urge, at least I can see what, or who I am getting scammed by.

[Chuck Sims]

Its crooked. Since they paid him on three occasions, they should pay him the rest and then throw him out.

[natrass]

This reminds me of when i opened a ladbrokes account. made a deposit. went to place a bet and it said that I had contact CS.

They said they need proof I am over 18 ... I said effectively, screw this, Ill just take my money back then. But, no, they couldnt pay me unless I provided ID.

Back and forth, etc. In the end, I wrote and said "OK, lets pretend I am 6 years old. Now what are you going to do with the deposit money? Keep it, donate it ... what can you possibly do but return an ungambled deposit??" Fuckwits, I said that when I visited one of their shops (you might remember my write-up).

However, in hindsight maybe I was a bit harsh because these guys did their checks BEFORE I gambled ... isnt that good? I mean they could have let me gamble and wait and see if I win then try and void it, etc.

This casino must pay up and pay up with a smile ... they lost the bets and have found a technicality (i.e. the law ... sounds funny, doesnt it?).

Death to BellaVegas.

[pags11]

good thread heree...I say pay the guy as well...

[fixxer]

IMHO the casino have the rights to not to pay the player....simply, because the jurisdiction. I think all authorities will agree with them, because law is law, and rule is rule. And in most (european!) countries, you must follow the laws of your country even if you make contract with a foreign partner (such as in this case), even if the place of the contract is outside his country. One must follow the rules at all time of his country, no matter what...

BUT!!! In this case, it's clear, that the casino found a reason why not to pay the player...which means they are trying to find reasons, why to not to pay big winnings, which means this is a place where it's not advised to play.....IMHO the player cannot do anything in this case...

According to my country's law for example (which is similar to most of the european country's laws, but different from the US law) If I remember right (I have to check to be sure, but...) what the casino did, was just, and not against the law /IF they realised that fact that the player's age is a problem, after he made his winnings..../

[isetcap]

I would like to know what the ultimate resolution is in this case.

[DamianDunlap]

Now there sister casinos seem to be locking people accounts that post negative info about them

If your not happy with the casinos and you post here about the problems or any complaint at all, the casino is going through the post and matching up user names and tagging your accounts!

This is confirmed here in an email sent to a member who is going to remain unnamed for now...

Dear xxxxxxxx

Thank you for the email.

I can confirm that I have now unlocked all your accounts. I am
Rather surprised that you wish your accounts open after your
Recent posts on the Winning Streak forum in regard to our casinos.

Kind Regards
James Winter
Grand Privé VIP Lounge


Now I myself and Carey have both stopped receiving any kind of promo emails, neither one of us has asked to be taken off the email list nor have we asked for our accounts to be closed but we are prohibited from entering any promos just out of the blue? lmaooooooooo please do you think we are stupid?

This is just a warning to those who would like to continue to play in these casinos and get the freebies that come out, do not post here at the Streak I suppose or else your tagged.

http://p218.ezboard.com/fthewinningstreakforumfrm15.showMessage?topicID=485.topic

[DamianDunlap]

http://mb.winneronline.com/showthread.html?p=117740#post117740

seems like the player want be getting paid no time soon

[DamianDunlap]

http://www.casinomeister.com/rogue/grandprive.html

The has been a major issue brewing since August 2005 involving a under age gambler and Grand Prive casinos. This is a Microgaming group - nine casinos total - and they are eCOGRA certified. Here is the problem in a nutshell:

The player, who resides in Las Vegas, joined each one of these casinos made deposits and occasionally won here and there. She was never asked for her ID, and the fact that she was only 19 was never an issue. But when she made a larger withdrawal, the casino requested her ID. These are required by the agreement that the casino has with eCOGRA. They must ensure that the player is a legitimate person who is lawfully allowed to play. Well, she lives in Nevada, and the gambling age for jurisdiction is 21. So the casino voided her cash-in and returned her deposits. Sounds fair? Well fairness is not the issue here. The issue is a casino's accountability, responsibility, and their relationship with the online casino industry.

The casino failed to do it's due diligence. They have all of the power within their means to prevent under age gambling. They relied solely on their terms and conditions, and in these times when underage gambling is such a hot topic - this is unacceptable. Underage gambling is beyond nickels and dimes, it is a behavior that is prompting the Bible thumpers in the US to hop up on their soapboxes and preach about the evils of online gambling. Reliance on the gambler to police his or her activities is a careless and irresponsible attitude to take. There is no excuse to have let this happen.

The casino considered this case closed last August since they turned this over to eCOGRA which understandably ruled against paying this player. There is absolutely no way eCOGRA or any other entity could consider asking the casino to honor a dime of her winnings.

But to the average Joe player, this casino appeared to be selective in who they were paying. It seemed to them that once the player had a big win, the casino found a loophole and decided not to pay. "She's a teenager - don't pay her" And this is the furor of the public. In the eyes of most players, casinos are crooks - you have to earn the players' trust, and this whole scenario fanned these flames of suspicion.

The casino failed us - those who work in this industry - by not making a bold statement to this episode. I was trying to convince them that the only way to face this would be to take this player's winnings and donate them to either a charity of her choice, or to some other organization - perhaps Gambling Anonymous. This would have nullified the notion that this casino was being selective. It would have cost them 20k (or whatever amount the winnings were). Hopefully it would have made the player feel that her negative experience was transposed into something positive - feeding hungry kids, providing counseling to problem gamblers, giving the homeless a home.

It would have saved a lot of anguish for the casino. And most importantly, it would have demonstrated to everyone that casinos will not profit from catering to under age gamblers. In short, this would have made many positive messages and provided something for the needy.

But in the casino's short-sightedness, they have chosen not to do this.

I've discussed this situation with a number of people, and I am deeply frustrated. I feel that this casino group has let everyone in this industry down by just letting this be and not engaging themselves in this problem. And I question how many more players like this one are out there.

I hope this serves as a wake up call to operators who are not doing their due diligence on protecting their players, their casino, and the online casino industry. Grand Prive Casino group, welcome to the rogues.

List of casinos in the Group
GrandPrive.com
Belle Vegas Online
Casino Grand Bay
Grand Bay Poker
Kasino Grand Bay
Lake Palace Casino
Jupiter Club Casino
Road House REELS Casino
Fortune Junction Casino
Jackpot Wheel Casino

[natrass]

The fact is the casino lost the money anyway. It was no longer theirs. That they found a loophole just means they are avoiding a payment of any sort now.

I find the casino to have behaved appalingly and natrass will not being darkening their towels in the future.