Is SBR Still Impartial and Fair to Players Who Go Them For Dispute Help?

[raiders72002]

Art- You have NO case. No book would have paid you.

[isetcap]

While it is true that no book would have paid him; he most certainly has a case. If he has no case then Pinnacle or any other sportsbook for that matter need not post any rules. For anybody that bets MLB with regularity it is understood that the wager should be graded in the manner which it was, but that does not mean that an individual who is unfamiliar with MLB should simply accept precedence that goes against the language of a rule which the book wrote specifically for the case in question.

[LT Profits]

Art,

First of all, I am very familiar with the English language, so don't insult me! I am very aware of what ambiguous means.

I STILL don't see any ambiguity in the phrasing here though. The last completed inning is just that - THE LAST COMPLETED INNING AT THE TIME OF THE SUSPENSION, at which time the Orioles had the lead.
======================================== =====

Icetcap,

The Orioles took the lead in the bottom half of the PRIOR inning (or last completed inning if you will). The game was suspended with the VISITING team batting, meaning the home team had no chance to tie or take the lead in the CURRENT inning. Therefore the exception rule does not apply, so it reverts back to the last completed inning.

Frankly, I honestly don't see how the rule can be interpretted any other way, even with Pinny's wording. In fact, I think the rule there is BETTER written than at some other sites.

[Art]

They changed the rule!!! Hello - how can anyone say it couldn't have been written more clearly??

Now be fair. I now know the industry standard. But Pinnacle promised to honor the wager if it was gray. I'm a fair guy, and honest is honest.

Just so you know - I continued playing with Pinnacle because of that promise, while this dispute was supposedly being resolved. I lost most of my balance in the meantime. Not a single complaint. Now I ask them to honor their word, and they IGNORE IT.

This is not what your A rated books do - lying to players is not expected from Pinnacle.

Now I thank the posters who apparently know the Vegas rules - and I admire them for that - but nonetheless are being honest and say that given Pinnacle's word, this wager needs to be regraded for me. And that's why I came to SBR in the first place.

[Dark Horse]

Art, it wasn't even a loss. File it under 'sh*t happens'. Be realistic. A book is not going to cancel one side and pay the other.

People with far more reason to complain about this game were over bettors who got their wagers canceled even though the game had already gone over in the last completed inning. Yet people accepted it, as far as I know (which isn't too far).

[Art]

Sure it was a loss.
I don't get that attitude. I feel bad for other bettors on the total, but let's focus for one second. That's all I ask.

1. Pinnacle said if it's gray, we will honor it. But we think it is crystal clear.

2A. Many people, including SBR, said of course it's gray - at a minimum.
2B. Pinnacle CHANGES THE RULE.

3. Pinnacle decides not to honor #1.

Period.

[Justin7]

Art,

I have never seen the Pinnacle email about "grey". Want to share that?

[raiders72002]

There's no gray area. It's the same as saying if a book posts a line at +7 but it's accidentally posted +77, that the book should take the bet.

[Dark Horse]

...let's focus for one second. That's all I ask.

Can't speak for others, but I only responded because I was surprised that Pinny wouldn't have been clear. And I think I can speak for others that we have all focused for more than 'one second' on your problem. The fact that you can't let it go, even after players have tried to see things from your perspective, doesn't speak too well for your objectivity.

Your bet was canceled per industry standards. Not the end of the world.

Your claim that Pinny changed their rule could be true, but the title you picked for this topic suggests you're no stranger to manipulation. Pinny's reputation is very well established. You have given nothing, no proof at all, to back up your claim.

For the record, I remember someone making a similar claim against Canbet, willing to swear that Canbet had changed the rules. I think Santo was able to pull up the history of the website, and show that the rule hadn't changed at all.

[Art]

This is a quote from SBR's finding to Pinnacle:

"The problem with this rule is that with a “strict” reading, it is ambiguous enough that a player could expect it to be graded the way Arthur argues."
...
"When a rule is ambiguous as this one is..."
...
"Rules should be written so that normal people can easily figure out what they mean. To this end, I am recommending that Pinnacle (and all other sportsbooks) clarify this rule – this might require two rules – one for “callings”, and another longer one for suspensions."

All I am saying is Pinnacle has told me that if it was gray they would regrade. But that their rule is completely clear. Not true, so honor your word Pinnacle.

As for the email in which they told me that (about my needing to show that it was gray), sorry Justin I didn't realize that you don't have that in your inbox. I am forwarding it now.
That's what this has been about since day one when I contacted SBR. Pinnacle's promise to me, and now their blatant attempt to ignore the fact that they said their rule is perfect and doesn't need to be interpreted by industry standards, just by the words on their page.

Sorry for bogging people down on this issue - but to me it means a lot. And Pinnacle is trying to back of their promise. And that's why I need some help, and I appreciate posters' interest and suggestions. Thanks.

[JC]

Can you please post the original rule, in its entirety? Thanks

[LT Profits]

Art,

JC hit it on the head, we would need to see the wording Pinny's site had at the time of your wager. I could have sworn that the current wording has always been there, but my memory may be shot these days.

[LT Profits]

Your bet was canceled per industry standards.

Actually DH, his bet LOST per industry standards as he had the Yankees.

[Dark Horse]

Oh, that's right. Guess I didn't want to call the good man a loser.

I just don't get this type of argument. Everybody in the same boat lost, but Art wants to crawl through a loophole. Like a poor loser. Maybe I'm just running a little short on patience. Long night.

[jason]

Let's Get the Facts

If Pinnacle really wrote that email to Art, I think he has a real point.
If Pinnacle wants to hold itself out to be a book that would even take care of players when their rules are "gray" - then do it Pinny.
Most books wouldn't say that, and sounds like Pinnacle is saying to Art that they are better than most books. If they did say it, then act like it.

Justin - pls confirm that Pinny sent Art an email saying that they would have a different take on this if it were gray. If they did, what were they thinking? This is gray and they need to ante up.

[Justin7]

Pinnacle's rule is the same. I compared the current one to the one in my analysis. If you find my previous thread, I quote the old (and same) rule.

I still haven't received the email from Art.

[bigboydan]

Art,

JC hit it on the head, we would need to see the wording Pinny's site had at the time of your wager. I could have sworn that the current wording has always been there, but my memory may be shot these days.

I think your memory is just fine LT


Heres the scan of the rule changes that were highlighted way back when. Notice Pinnacle's rules did not change at all on the betting rules monitor, because it would have been noticed on this particular scan.

07.02.2007 02:04 PM

SBR’s Sports Betting Rules Monitor: MLB Baseball Betting Rules Clarified by sportsbooks


SBR’s Sports Betting Rules Monitor: Sportsbooks react to rainout in Yankees vs. Orioles game on June 28th, 2007. For wagering purposes Baltimore was graded as a 6-4 winner despite the game being suspended in the top of the 8th due to weather with the Yankees leading 8-6. Many New York bettors requested clarification from clerks, prompting the sportsbooks to update and/or clarify wagering rules.

Matchbook (SBR rating A-) updates baseball wagering rules
Matchbook adds text stating moneyline wagers on baseball games that are suspended will be graded based on the score of the last full inning, should play be halted in the top half of the inning with the home team trailing.

BetOnline (SBR rating B+) clarifies baseball moneyline grading
BetOnline removes irrelevant text about the game being official for grading purposes after 8.5 (if home team is winning) or 9 innings, leaving text stating moneyline baseball bets are official after 5 complete innings or 4.5 innings if the home team is winning.

BetPlatinum (SBR rating C-) removes contradicting wording to clarify that MLB games must go 4.5 (if home team is winning) or 5 innings to declare moneyline winner; removes text suggesting 9 innings of play is required for all grading.

SportsOffShore (SBR rating B), WorldWideWagering (SBR rating B), ClicknGamble (SBR rating D-) & JustforBettors (SBR rating D-) each add clarification and/or examples for grading of suspended baseball games. Latest rule changes

Topcat (SBR ratign C) rules as well as sister book, BetTrojan (SBR rating C) rules add notation that Las Vegas policies apply for situations not covered within own rules pages.

Expekt (SBR rating B) adds "debit cards" to list of transfer methods that may incur a deposit fee.

Please note the two books that revised there changes because of that particular game.

[Art]

Justin - I forwarded the email to assistance@sportsbookreview.com this morning right after my post. I will resend again.

Regarding the rule - here is the quote:

"If a game is called or suspended, the winner is determined by the score after the last full inning unless the home team scores to tie, or takes the lead in the bottom half of the inning, in which case the winner is determined by the score at the time the game is called."

Now the "unless" part of the rule doesn't apply - so we are left with a rule that says "if a game is called or suspended, the winner is detemrined by the score after the last full inning."

When a game is called, the last full inning of the could be the 6th inning or 7th inning or whenver it is called.
When a game is suspended, the last full inning of the game is the 9th - after which my team was winning - and the winner under Pinnacle's rule should have been determined by the final score after that inning.

[LT Profits]

No Art, when they say last completed inning, they mean last completed inning at time game is suspended or called. This is confirmed later in the same paragraph of the rules in the last sentence. Here is the COMPLETE paragraph:

The result of a game is official after 5 innings of play unless the home team is leading after 4.5 innings. If a game is called or suspended, the winner is determined by the score after the last full inning unless the home team scores to tie, or takes the lead in the bottom half of the inning, in which case the winner is determined by the score at the time the game is called. Monies will be refunded if the home team ties the game and it is then suspended. Events will not carry over to the following day unless otherwise specified.

Since there can be no future carryover, it becomes obvious that when they say last inning, they mean last inning at time of postponement or suspension. Thus there is no ambiguity when the paragraph is taken as a whole.

[JC]

Justin - I forwarded the email to assistance@sportsbookreview.com this morning right after my post. I will resend again.

Regarding the rule - here is the quote:

"If a game is called or suspended, the winner is determined by the score after the last full inning unless the home team scores to tie, or takes the lead in the bottom half of the inning, in which case the winner is determined by the score at the time the game is called."

Now the "unless" part of the rule doesn't apply - so we are left with a rule that says "if a game is called or suspended, the winner is detemrined by the score after the last full inning."

When a game is called, the last full inning of the could be the 6th inning or 7th inning or whenver it is called.
When a game is suspended, the last full inning of the game is the 9th - after which my team was winning - and the winner under Pinnacle's rule should have been determined by the final score after that inning.

I don't know where you see the last full inning could be the 6th or the 7th. The last full inning is the one that had 3 outs in each half. That's what the plain meaning of "full inning" is.

I really don't think you have any case here.

The game was suspended, the winner was determined by the last full inning.

As Judge Judy says, you should put a period on it and move on with your life.

[jason]

I don't get all the controversy here. JC - I don't think you're following Artie's point.

Of course this rule is unclear - Pinnacle's rule says the game will be graded based on the score at the end of the final inning - is it
(a) the final inning of the game period or
(b) the final inning before it was called.

Now I would interpret it as (a), especially because later in the rule it uses the language of "at the ftime the game is called" - so it uses it when it means it, but not for this suspended situation.

But bottom line - I agree - the fact is it doesn't say, so it is at least "gray."

If Pinnacle promises to work with players when the rules are gray, as they told me once - that is their choice. But they should honor it and put their money where their mouth is. Artie - do they actually use the term "gray" in their email? If so, you got my support. I hate books that pretend to be so honorable and say they'll honor gray rules or somthin like that, and then go back on it when they're called out on it.

[JC]

I asked Art to publish the rule. Based on what he posted above in post 53, he has no case.

[Dark Horse]

Of course he has no case. Thousands of players lost that very same bet, Pinny is the sharpest outfit out there, SBR monitors rule changes, and Art maintains Pinny changed the rules. Gimme a break. The guy just wants a free ride.

[Art]

Of course this rule is unclear - Pinnacle's rule says the game will be graded based on the score at the end of the final inning - is it
(a) the final inning of the game period or
(b) the final inning before it was called.

Now I would interpret it as (a), especially because later in the rule it uses the language of "at the time the game is called" - so it uses it when it means it, but not for this suspended situation.

But bottom line - I agree - the fact is it doesn't say, so it is at least "gray."

If Pinnacle promises to work with players when the rules are gray, as they told me once - that is their choice. But they should honor it and put their money where their mouth is. Artie - do they actually use the term "gray" in their email? If so, you got my support. I hate books that pretend to be so honorable and say they'll honor gray rules or somthin like that, and then go back on it when they're called out on it.

Thanks for the post. That is exactly what my point is. There was no language in the rule saying "last inning at the time the game was called," like someone else suggested. What you wrote, Jason, is exactly why this situation is so unfair.

And Dark Horse, it does not make any difference what other books or players do or did. This is about Pinnacle, Pinnacle's rule, and Pinnacle's promise to me. Other books don't say that they will work with a player if the rule is gray...Pinnacle said it explicitly. They wanted to take the high road and be cocky and say our rule is so clear that no one can read it any other way - and that's just flat out not true. SBR showed and half a dozen posters showed it. Now honor your word, SBR.

[LT Profits]

Art, give it up dude. There is now way in the world you will get paid. If Pinnacle pays you, they will have a thousand other guys asking for the same treatment.

That aside, it is incomprehensible to me that you do not get that they meant last inning at time of suspension, especially when combined with the no future carryover clause. You have to take the paragraph as a whole, not just the selective sentence you showed. It is OBVIOUS they meant last inning at time of suspension, and the reason Pinnacle challenged you to prove the wording wrong or "gray" is because they know you can't. Anyone with a grain of common sense would understand the rule exactly as Pinnacle has written it.

Anyhow, this silly thread has taken too much of my time, so this is my last post on this subject...until the next time a guy tries the same argument the next time this occurs.

[jason]

Anyone with a grain of common sense would understand the rule exactly as Pinnacle has written it.

Come on, man. Don't overstate your case. Are you calling the SBR posters (including me) who said they would read it the other way people without a GRAIN of common sense?

You've stated your reading of the rule, fine. Respect the fact that others don't agree.
And that I think is Art's point - Pinnacle said they would work with the player if this exact case happened...now they're backing off.

[MrX]

I have to agree with LT. This is a really weak claim you're making. You seem to understand that you made a bet that everyone in the sportsbetting universe understands was properly graded as a loss, but because you got an email from someone at Pinny promising to pay you if their rules were gray, you want your money back. And you're carrying on as if you've been horribly wronged. I mean, really, if some CS rep at Pinny didn't make a dumb comment about paying you if the rules were gray, this wouldn't be any issue at all.

And then you start a thread questioning the integrity of SBR. Seriously, the amount of attention this rather silly complaint has received is evidence of the seriousness with which SBR handles player complaints.

[SBR Lou]

Art,

I'm not going to repeat what others have said here, since there's more than enough for you to consider in regard to your situation. I'm just going to speak on behalf of what I've seen in my time as a member here, and from what I have read about many times before joining the forum. SBR is a classy group of people, I don't think they play favorites because of money or anything else, in fact I think they actually give players benefit of the doubt until all facts are presented. Not everyone will love them and that's fine, but I know as a bettor if there's ever a big dispute or messy situation I have a place to turn.

[Art]

You seem to understand that you made a bet that everyone in the sportsbetting universe understands was properly graded as a loss, but because you got an email from someone at Pinny promising to pay you if their rules were gray, you want your money back. I mean, really, if some CS rep at Pinny didn't make a dumb comment about paying you if the rules were gray, this wouldn't be any issue at all.

This was not some CS rep at Pinny. This email came directly from their SPORTSBOOK MANAGER, Bridgette.

Also - only now do I know what the rest of the industry does. I didn't know when I placed the bet. And Pinnacle itself AGREED that that should make no difference. They said their rules CAN AND SHOULD be read ON THEIR OWN. So Pinnacle, back up your word.

[diamond]

Art, I think one of the problem is that you have come to the church of Pinnacle, right here right now..this forum

If this was another sportsbook, I actually think you would have gotten more support from people.

[BigDaddy]

I have to agree with LT. This is a really weak claim you're making. You seem to understand that you made a bet that everyone in the sportsbetting universe understands was properly graded as a loss, but because you got an email from someone at Pinny promising to pay you if their rules were gray, you want your money back. And you're carrying on as if you've been horribly wronged. I mean, really, if some CS rep at Pinny didn't make a dumb comment about paying you if the rules were gray, this wouldn't be any issue at all.

And then you start a thread questioning the integrity of SBR. Seriously, the amount of attention this rather silly complaint has received is evidence of the seriousness with which SBR handles player complaints.

"You seem to understand that you made a bet that everyone in the sportsbetting universe understands was properly graded as a loss"


I know the rules and i agree it should be a loss but you are wrong about what people know its funny because after that game was called if you looked on the forums most didnt have a clue which way it would be graded if its such an obvious rule why did every forum have a thread

how does this get graded?

[MrX]

You're right. I overstated my case.

Well, the important part to my argument was that the OP understands that it was properly graded as a loss.

[bigloser]

Im with Art

a) definately if the email exists
b) probably if it doesnt

[Art]

Im with Art

a) definately if the email exists
b) probably if it doesnt

Thanks, BL.

BTW - I have forwarded SBR the email with original time stamp, etc. I don't think Pinnacle can deny saying that their can be interpreted in only 1 way, and if it were "gray" in any way, they would work with me. Now it's just a question of SBR stepping in to say you guys may have overpromised - but we have proof of what you said, and next time be more careful of what you tell players. This guy deserves to be treated as you promised.

By the way - Pinnacle has done the exact opposite of working with me! They have IGNORED almost 12 emails from me, saying their CS Manager would get back to me, and then leaving me hanging for DAYS. Good job, Pinnacle, caring about your loyal player you promised to work with. That's real fair.

[jason]

Im with Art

a) definately if the email exists
b) probably if it doesnt

Im with Art, but only if the email exists (option (a) above). If Pinnacle said they'll work with him if it's gray, then... Pinnacle - it's gray. No ifs ands or buts. I read rules all day long (lawyer) - it is as gray as can be.

Justin, did they really say in an email that they would work with him if it's gray? Please confirm for us.
If they said anything of that sort, I for one think SBR should go to bat for this guy. Wrong or right on what the rule should be, Pinnacle sounds like it shot its mouth off and is now backtracking.