My crystal ball on Cascade.

[SBR_John]

I have said before in the main thread that I'd cap the possibility of players getting paid at 50/50 by Lenny and Cascade.

I can add that word on the street is that Lenny intends to pay and make a full come back. With the word on the street would that change how I would cap this or change my 50/50 line? Yes. I'd probably lean a little more towards the players getting paid. But only a little because so many things could go wrong. 55/45

Time frame. I don't see anything happening for several months. I dont think Lenny will run either.

I would ask Cascade to pull their banners down wherever they are and to stop accepting postup deposits. The first step to getting out of a hole is to stop digging.

[katstale]

First hand reporting--thanks for that!!

[crackerjack]

Interesting...thanks for the news, although I think 55-45 is generous.

[them45ter]

Thanks for the update John. I hope you are right.

[WWTSblows]

But if they stop re-ups, they won't even be able to maintain their overhead costs and chances could go down to zero quickly.

I'm not saying its right by any means, however. At this point though, if you aren't going to pay your customers then there is no other right answer in my book.

[jjgold]

They need to continue to take deposits from sqaure type players, I would think they will pay eventually.

[The HG]

Perhaps I'm naïve as to what's really going on out there, but is the deposit issue really a matter at all right now? Are there really people trying to deposit money at Cascade? I find that hard to believe.

[RickySteve]

Perhaps I'm naïve as to what's really going on out there, but is the deposit issue really a matter at all right now? Are there really people trying to deposit money at Cascade? I find that hard to believe.

You're assuming every Cascade client is a forum watcher or winning bettor?

[magnavox]

You're assuming every Cascade client is a forum watcher or winning bettor?

There's nothing to assume here, it's a fact.

[RickySteve]

There's nothing to assume here, it's a fact.

Uh huh...

[Dead Money]

Did you guys see what TOW did???

Cascade's story is that "Clipjoint" burnt them for hundred's of thousands of dollars.
Their solution is to post a picture, and put his name on their website.

Very classy!!

This is the reason they are in such financial dissaray!!!!!!

Great show they are running when they let 1 lousy agent get a tab up to 300 large, and then nopay/slowpay every single one of the post up customers as a result.

Never had nor ever will deal with Cascade.
I would pay full juice before I gave one penny to Lenny.

[katstale]

Perhaps I'm naïve as to what's really going on out there, but is the deposit issue really a matter at all right now? Are there really people trying to deposit money at Cascade? I find that hard to believe.

That sweet bonus and reduced juice is hard to pass up!!

[SBR_John]

To accept new deposits while you cant pay is a scam pure and simple.

This is a business of honor.

If Cascade continues to accept deposits and refuses to take down their banners they will prove that there is no honor hence there is no come back.

Cascade needs to replace the players money with their own, not ponzi style from new and unsuspecting marks.

[slash]

The chances of Cascade ending up paying is as close to zero as can be. It's quite obvious that Lenny is desperate...

[Arilou]

SBR_John, if you think there's a 55% comeback chance, how much would you pay for an internal transfer of funds inside Cascade? Would you take 40 cents on the dollar?

I'm sure many people here would jump at that offer.

[katstale]

SBR_John, if you think there's a 55% comeback chance, how much would you pay for an internal transfer of funds inside Cascade? Would you take 40 cents on the dollar?

I'm sure many people here would jump at that offer.

John?? You listening? You can be debt free by August and free yourself from the taunts of JJ. You better put some math to that offer!!

[707782]

Why would someone with any iq wants to play there afteward if the only way to save them is by scamming more peopple's money?

think

[chano]

Explain!!!!

Explain this to all of us .......

How can a book be in slow/no pay mode for this length of time and still be a D-.

Also . How are they not on the homepage with flashing lights warning us of the "SCAM OPERATION" thet they are running. In the past , other books fell under this same type category and they were deemed "Scam/F" . You can not take deposits if you are not paying out. This is clearly robbery. To suggest that he has a 50/50 chance of survival suggests only one thing here. Clearly SBR is on the payroll. So in theory , there are 2 scam operations here Cascade & SBR.

[SBR_John]

Hmm we are on the payroll because we reward a book with a D-? Thats a new one. Why are you so bitter Chano? What book do you work for? Do you think we rate your book too low?

I probably would gamble on .40 on the dollar if there was not a huge conflict and the player was not a US citizen. Thats a pretty fair price. Knowing what I know I'd probably be a buyer at .40 and a seller at .60. Be risky either way.

[chano]

Not Bitter at all.

Just wondering why they still are D-. When they clearly should be a SCAM OPERATION and an " F".

What keeps them at D- ??

[slash]

Cascade is broke. Not much else to it.

[increasedodds]

Well they could sell the name and players accounts... They could give them to someone able to pay.

I would think the names/accounts must be worth $300k to a Cris, Olympic, or Bodog...

Sean

[DrSlamm]

sharps+ debt is hard to imagine being worth a positive #

[slash]

Well they could sell the name and players accounts... They could give them to someone able to pay.

I would think the names/accounts must be worth $300k to a Cris, Olympic, or Bodog...

Sean

Com'on now. You don't seriously think almost every single Cascade customer aren't already playing with those books?

No matter what happens, Cascade is history. No-one with half a brain will ever trust Cascade with a single dollar after this.

[Scorpion]

Im still waiting for my fukking payout!

[chano]

I dont like your chances. I hope I am wrong though.

[suzysuzy]

anything new with this? i havent bothered calling lenny in a while.

[slash]

anything new with this? i havent bothered calling lenny in a while.

They were broke 2 months ago, they were broke last week, they were broke yesterday and still are...

[Breaker]

Talked to Lenny yesterday, he has several things he's working on, and expects to have everybody paid by the all-star break (July 10).

For specifics, give him a call.

For all the people saying "we've heard that before", all I can say is I'm thrilled he is still trying, and I hope he makes it.
Not just to get my money, also because if he gets out of this and pays everybody it proves he is a stand up guy, and we can never have enough of those in this industry.

Encouraging signs for me are that he has several plans to get funds that don't involve waiting for new deposits, (the opposite, they're not taking any for the moment which is definetely the honorable thing to do), they still answer the phone and answer questions, even get on the boards to provide info.

Have dates not been met in the past?
Certainly, but I think they promised to pay by those dates with the best intentions, expecting certain things to come through.
That those things didn't come through each time so far still means they're trying to get back, which is key.

Let's put it this way, if they get out of this, they'll probably become a lot more responsible with their money management, and might once more become a great book to play at.

[Shack]

You would think that these guys would have millions in their coffins as long and sucessful as they have been. Should be a matter of shifting funds around. Anyone know if they still are owed by Neteller?

[Helmut]

Anyone know if they still are owed by Neteller?

Last time I called I asked Lenny that and he said "No".

[gotsteam]

Hmm we are on the payroll because we reward a book with a D-? Thats a new one. Why are you so bitter Chano? What book do you work for? Do you think we rate your book too low?

I probably would gamble on .40 on the dollar if there was not a huge conflict and the player was not a US citizen. Thats a pretty fair price. Knowing what I know I'd probably be a buyer at .40 and a seller at .60. Be risky either way.

I got to side with CHANO on this one

If this was any of a host of other books, they would have been labeled an F almost instantly.

Bodog is Xtreme slow pay mode, yet they remain an A, this book openly admits it cannot pay, yet remains a D-

Makes no sense logically speaking, until advertising dollars are factored in.

[TLD]

I don’t think it’s out of the question at all that Cascade customers will eventually be paid. I don’t know that I’d put the chances as high as 50-50, but I think there’s still a realistic chance. Cascade has been dancing along the edge seemingly for its entire existence—constant rumors of their impending demise, frequent last minute alliances with or back up funding from more stable books, etc.—but have always bounced back. It sounds like they’re a lot closer to going under for good this time, but I wouldn’t give up hope that they have at least one of their nine lives left.

I want to respond to something else stated in this thread however:

Talked to Lenny yesterday, he has several things he's working on, and expects to have everybody paid by the all-star break (July 10).

For specifics, give him a call.

For all the people saying "we've heard that before", all I can say is I'm thrilled he is still trying, and I hope he makes it. Not just to get my money, also because if he gets out of this and pays everybody it proves he is a stand up guy, and we can never have enough of those in this industry….

Let's put it this way, if they get out of this, they'll probably become a lot more responsible with their money management, and might once more become a great book to play at.

No, no, no, and no. And no.

This is a misunderstanding of the whole premise of post up bookmaking.

When customers post up their money in advance, they are allowing the bookie to hold the entire stake—both their portion and the bookie’s portion. Were there some realistic way for it to be arranged for a trustworthy third party to hold the stake that would be preferable, but as it is we’re stuck with the current system where 100% of the trust must go in one direction.

Whoever is holding the stake for a wager—whether it be a third party, or, in our case of offshore bookmaking, one of the actual parties to the wager—that money does not belong to the party holding it. Period. It is being held in trust so that it may then be turned over to the winner of the wager when the time comes. Any other use of the money is stealing.

The day a book does not have the funds to cover both its side of its wagers and the amount staked by their customers in advance and entrusted to them to hold, it is stealing.

Unfortunately violating this has become such common practice that it’s now somewhat accepted in the industry, with the general attitude being, “Well, what matters is if they can come up with the money when they’re called upon to pay. If they dipped into money they shouldn’t have, we’ll let that slide as long as they were able to replace it in time to pay out what they owe.”

But as much as this lowers the standards for being a “stand up guy,” we are sometimes implicitly asked to lower them even further, to where it also covers someone who gets caught not being able to return the post up money in time, but returns it at some later date. Indeed, in some cases of stiffs in the past, an argument has been made that even bookies who never pay are really only in the wrong if they intended all along to stiff everyone; otherwise they are failed (but honorable) businessmen.

This is just plain wrong.

Consider the analogous case where you are an employee of a business who has access to the safe. Here are five possibilities:

1. You don’t take the money in the safe, as it doesn’t belong to you.

2. You borrow money from the safe, but you always manage to put it back before anyone notices.

3. You borrow money from the safe, you are not able to put it back in time and so you get caught, but later you pay it back.

4. You borrow money from the safe, you are not able to put it back in time and so you get caught, you make an effort to come up with the money later but are not able to and so do not pay it back.

5. You take money from the safe with no intention of ever paying it back.

To me, if you do anything other than #1, you are not a “stand up guy.” Granted, each one as we go down the list gets progressively worse, but #2, #3, #4, and #5 are all in the wrong. We’re just talking about different degrees of scumbaggery.

Bottom line, the people who run Cascade are thieves and have been for a long time. (In terms of my analogy above, it is proven they are not #1 or #2, and I think it’s very unlikely they are #5. They are either #3 or #4; time will tell which.) If they eventually come up with the money to pay their customers, they are less despicable than if they don’t, and so that is very much what I hope happens. But “stand up guys”? Please.

[TLD]

I got to side with CHANO on this one

If this was any of a host of other books, they would have been labeled an F almost instantly.

Bodog is Xtreme slow pay mode, yet they remain an A, this book openly admits it cannot pay, yet remains a D-

Makes no sense logically speaking, until advertising dollars are factored in.

Not even remotely comparable.

Cascade is in no pay mode. They are broke. They are trying to come up with the money to pay, but until they do, they deserve a very low grade, just one notch above stiff books—Aces Gold, Camelot, etc.—that have already ceased to exist and whose customers have zero chance of being paid.

Bodog is paying as quickly or almost as quickly as ever by Western Union. They are in slow pay mode—definitely not no pay mode—for checks, but all evidence points to this being due to the difficulty that many, many books, especially larger books, are having finding and keeping check processors in the current U.S. legal climate. There is zero evidence it’s because they’re broke and don’t have the money that has been entrusted to them. To the contrary, they are spending a fortune eating additional fees to facilitate customers receiving their money Western Union, just the opposite of what one would expect from a book that is unwilling to pay or lacks the money to pay.

The longest I’ve waited on a payout since all this garbage started was from WSEX/Matchbook. Want to give them an F too?

A case can be made that books experiencing sustained processor problems like this should be dropped a half grade or so, or a parenthetical warning should be added to their grade noting that obstacles put up by U.S. law and U.S. banks are delaying some of their payouts, but to compare them with no pay books is absurd.

[gotsteam]

Not even remotely comparable.

Cascade is in no pay mode. They are broke. They are trying to come up with the money to pay, but until they do, they deserve a very low grade, just one notch above stiff books—Aces Gold, Camelot, etc.—that have already ceased to exist and whose customers have zero chance of being paid.

Bodog is paying as quickly or almost as quickly as ever by Western Union. They are in slow pay mode—definitely not no pay mode—for checks, but all evidence points to this being due to the difficulty that many, many books, especially larger books, are having finding and keeping check processors in the current U.S. legal climate. There is zero evidence it’s because they’re broke and don’t have the money that has been entrusted to them. To the contrary, they are spending a fortune eating additional fees to facilitate customers receiving their money Western Union, just the opposite of what one would expect from a book that is unwilling to pay or lacks the money to pay.

The longest I’ve waited on a payout since all this garbage started was from WSEX/Matchbook. Want to give them an F too?

A case can be made that books experiencing sustained processor problems like this should be dropped a half grade or so, or a parenthetical warning should be added to their grade noting that obstacles put up by U.S. law and U.S. banks are delaying some of their payouts, but to compare them with no pay books is absurd.

I agree with you wholeheartedly

Cascade should be an F and Bodog in the D range, until they sort out payment issues.