Being investigated on WSEX for exploiting what was clearly a bot ...

[LVHerbie]

I haven't played on WSEX in several years and had about $25 in there from the last time I played there... I recently rediscovered that I had left some money there so (after running it up to a little over $100 betting some football games) I decided to play some poker... While I was playing some low stakes no limit some people were talking about how they thought Chucky79 (who was sitting alone at a 1/2 Limit game) was a bot... I had read alot ofl the discussion on 2+2 about how they had in the past alleged bots over there and was surprised that they would still allow it to occur... I then sat with Chucky79 at 1/2 Limit and proceeded to play for two hours against him just posting the SB on the button, playing the hand, then sitting out and waiting to receive the SB and button again... This pattern continued while I played him from 1:02 AM to 1:06 AM on the 24th (I quit and tried one or two of the players at a high stakes table, who responded and quit me before we had even played a hand or after one hand and to reread some of the commentary about the situation from before) and restarted playing against Chucky79 at 1:54 AM till 3:45 AM... During this whole time he never once quit playing me or said a word in chat... At that time he called me the cheater, sat out in the middle of a hand (he actually exploited the all-in protection with second pair or something ) and told me he was going to report me the fraud department...

I obviously didn't take this threat seriously and continued to occasionally play tourneys and NL cash at WSEX until this morning when I discovered I was locked out of WSEX's pokerroom... Here is my live chat session from with WSEX this morning...

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): blocked from pokerroom (error 11)


You are now speaking with Anika of Poker/Casino/FSE.

Anika: hello

Anika: how may i assist you?

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): Hi, I'm getting an error 11 (blocked) when I try and log into the pokerroom...

Anika: can i please get your user name for your account

Anika: thank you

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): no problem... HerbieWE

Anika: one moment please

Anika: i'm transferring you to my supervisor

Anika: please hold

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): thanks...

Please hold while being transferred to Christopher of Poker/Casino/FSE.

You are now speaking with Christopher of Poker/Casino/FSE.

Christopher: Hello Aaron , My name is Christopher. Welcome to WSEX Poker LiveChat Service. How may I assist you at this time?

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): When I log into the poker software I get an message saying I'm blocked (error 11)

Christopher: We've been reviewing your play history with us and we've noticed that while playing heads up your missing big blinds for every hand. Can you let us know why your doing this?

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): yea, the guy I was playing was a bot and I was taking advantage of that...

Christopher: Why would you think that your opponent was a bot? Also, if you think customers you're playing against are bots why aren't you reporting them?

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): Because I played him for several hours and never played a BB and he continued to play... Nobody would do that if they were there... I'm not going to BS you I read all the forums for years about the limit bots on WSEX... I decide to play here and was really surprised that they were still allowed on your site..

Christopher: Aaron that customer you played against was NOT a bot.

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): lol... why did he continue to let me play the way I did for over two hours and never said a word in chat until he stopped it at that time?

Christopher: He's been with us for a while now and I'm familiar with his history. We do NOT allow bots at our tables here at WSEX Poker.

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): Can you explain why he would let me play the SB for over two hours then?

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): and never said a word till he quit me?

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): two hours later?

Christopher: Ok you guys played for about 2 hours but that doesn't excuse the fact that you miss the big blind everytime it was your turn.

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): A human would not do this... Obviously it is a huge advantage and a human would have quit within a hand or two...

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): Can you please explain why it took him two hours to quit me with it was clear that I was exploiting him?

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): I wanted to prove he was a bot and did... Obviously I was exploiting that fact... There is one justifiable reason why he would continue to play when it was clear that I was exploiting him...

Christopher: Will we've contacted both of you for the actions that took place at the table and we're investigating the entire matter. We just wanted to get your side of the story

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): I don't think you can explain to me why he did what he did... If you going to ban me thats fine... I'm going to post all of this in several forums regardless if you ban me or not...

Christopher: We are NOT banning you from our site Aaron

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): There is nothing to instigate on my side I thought he was a bot and exploited it and if you want to ban me you can...

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): investigate..

Christopher: This matter is being investigated so both accounts were closed

Christopher: I sent all the information to our Technical Support Team to evaluate what happened

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): What is being investigated then? You already told me WSEX knows he isn't a bot and I explained my actions and admitted that I was exploited him...

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): Am I banned from the poker room or not?

Christopher: Aaron you are NOT banned

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): so I can play in the pokerroom still?

Christopher: Please give us some time for our Technical Support Team to properly investigate what happened and get back to us

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): I'm also still going to post this in the forums regardless if I'm allowed to play or not btw...

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): When can I find out the status of the ruling?

Christopher: Aaron, as I said both accounts were closed first thing when we looked at the hands

Christopher: The information was sent to our Technical Support Team for further evaluation

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): There isn't much to look at... I only posted the small blind for over two hours and he never stopped playing me or complained...

Christopher: As far as we know chucky79 is NOT a bot but that is still left to be determined from this most recent event

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): Okay... well again I'm not going to BS you I'm posting this whole incident to twoplustwo and sbr... Can I get an email when the investigation is concluded?

Christopher: Yes you will receive an e-mail once the investigation is complete.

Aaron XXXXX (HerbieWE): Thanks, alot Chistopher... I appreciate the assistance... >>

[themajormt]

Is it possible the guy was playing a lot of hands at different tables and didnt care too much until it sank in? Really odd...

[LVHerbie]

If this was the case it wasn't at wsex as there are no games going (especially at this time)... Regardless it would also be hard not to notice for several hours because it often took 10 seconds to reset the button and I didn't always get it after the reset... His play and timing was a very mechanical and I had taken notes on very consistent tendencies that I was consistently exploiting on top of the advantage I was gaining by having the sb every hand... There are lengthy accusations of this over at 2+2 and video which I posted here a long time ago... (I'm planning on reposting what I posted here over at 2+2 as well but there they are doing maintenance right now) His timing and play were very, very similar to the video (in addition to allowing the SB exploit) which makes me think this player used the same type of programming...

[LVHerbie]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...4375688672713# His playing and timing style was almost identical to this video...

[themajormt]

What allows the SB to exploit? Just raising because there are set hands that he will play?

How much did you win from him?

[Immortality]

Good job Herbie. Was clearly a bot. Glad you took some money off the idiot running it.

[LVHerbie]

What allows the SB to exploit? Just raising because there are set hands that he will play?

How much did you win from him?

You get position every hand and he is posting a bb while you post only half 1/2 a bb... I actually was down to him at first because I think I was being way to too aggressive given my advantage and, I'm assuming, the swings involved in limit poker (I've think I've played limit maybe 6 times since I started playing poker in 2003)... According to pokertracker I only won $23.5 (plus a few dollars in rakeback) from him before he quit...

This was all obviously about just trying to exploit the bot although I would have taken another shot at him (or other bots higher up) if I have been given a chance or had more money on WSEX...

[LVHerbie]

my thread at 2+2

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/being-investigated-wsex-exploiting-what-clearly-bot-595059/#post13434360

[themajormt]

So basically the guy who was running the bot checked in a couple hours later and saw what you were doing and then reported you. They wont give hand history on him will they? You should get someone to track him...

[LVHerbie]

I have the hand histories I played against him... I would post them but they put each hand in a separate file (according to pokertracker there were 120) and would be alot of work to cut and paste them all together... There isn't really much to see except me only playing the sb and button repetitively against him (and how badly I play at limit hold 'em)... The video above is basically how the play went and if anyone really wants see them I can post them as a zip file somewhere so I don't have to cut and paste all of them together... Obviously, if I don't get my money back (I only have a little over $200 in there now .. Plus am also owed a little over $30 in rakeback and I qualified for the weekly VIP tourney that is worth like $20-25) I will be submitting a complaint to SBR but right now it looks WSEX has just locked me out of their poker software as I can still see my balance in the sportsbook and I was able to place a small test bet on the football game tonight...

Right now I'm more interested in how WSEX is going to respond to having bots playing on their site despite claiming they dealt with this years ago... From what little I played there this week it looks like the NL games are now kindof soft but with their cashout problems it won't be a big lose to me if they don't want my action...

[geebert74]

Unfortunately you can go and work these people without the book launching an investigation. It was a sure way to get your $$$ taken from you. They prolly wont let you play anymore with them. It is a shame when you are trying to set an example your the one that gets busted...

[JoshW]

If nothing else it makes for an interesting thread.

Honestly, if a bot wasn't playing at WSEX poker, would they have any players left?

[LVHerbie]

Unfortunately you can go and work these people without the book launching an investigation. It was a sure way to get your $$$ taken from you. They prolly wont let you play anymore with them. It is a shame when you are trying to set an example your the one that gets busted...

Don't give me anymore credit then I'm due... I was clearly taking a shot and was planning on continue playing him in the exact same way until I busted him or until I had enough money to move up and play what I also suspected of being bots at higher stakes (obviously, with wsex's current status for cashouts, I was unwilling to put more money on their site to do this) ... After laughing to myself when he said he was reporting me to the fraud department I decided it was unlikely I was going to get more action from any possible bots higher up as I figured I was known to them at this point...

If they will allow me to continue play poker there (probably unlikely at this point) I will likely continue to occasionally play the more "traditional" ways and forms of poker there (if I feel I have advantage) while probably continuing to make an occasional sports bet that can be expected to lose more often then win...

[LVHerbie]

Completely unrelated to any of this but I actually believe (I haven't played there in sometime) that I'm down in the low four figures range to them in their sportsbook... This was of course when I actually felt comfortable keeping a significant balance there...

[LVHerbie]

My account was unlocked but didn't get my email about the investigation... I will post when I get that information...

<< Aaron xxxxx (HerbieWE): Status of my account


You are now speaking with Narissa of Poker/Casino/FSE.

Narissa: Thanks for contacting World Sports Exchange

Narissa: Please give us your user name

Aaron xxxxx (HerbieWE): Hi, Narissa... HerbieWE...

Narissa: How can i assist you?

Aaron xxxxx (HerbieWE): My account was blocked and I was told earlier today that I was being investigated... I now seem able to log into the poker client and was wondering if I was able to play again....

Aaron xxxxx (HerbieWE): Is Christopher around by any chance?

Aaron xxxxx (HerbieWE): or another supervisor?

Narissa: Your account is unblocked

Narissa: no he left for the day. He will be on shift at 8:00 am eastern time

Aaron xxxxx (HerbieWE): I was told I would receive an email with the results of the investigation that I didn't receive... Do I need to talk to him about this?

Narissa: You may need to contact him in the morning for him to give you more details on the investigation as he is not on the evening shift and we have no word for you

Narissa: sorry for the inconveinance

Aaron xxxxx (HerbieWE): okay. no problem.. I will try to get ahold of him first thing tomorrow morning... But I'm free to play poker on WSEX still?

Narissa: yes you are

Aaron xxxxx (HerbieWE): okay... that will work for now and I will try and talk to Christopher tomorrow... thanks alot then Narissa...

Narissa: You're welcom >>

[LVHerbie]

Response from WSEX about their investigation... I emailed them back asking about the other player...

<< Hello Aaron,

Thank you for contacting World Sports Exchange Poker Support.

Today I had our Technical Team review the hands played between 'chucky79' and yourself on Sept. 24th 2009. In the interim your account was temporally disabled as a precautionary measure because of the alarming activity found within the hand history. We would advise to refrain from skipping big blinds while playing heads up as this is not allowed here at WSEX Poker. You potentially risk your account being disable by a WSEX representative monitoring our poker tables for cheaters. We try to exercise the the utmost caution when dealing with poker accounts which is why its best disabled when an investigation is being performed. We deeply apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused and hope you understand that it was done in your best interest. Thank you very much for your time and patients during this time.

Best regards,

Robert
WSEX Poker >>

[purecarnagge]

Is it in there rules on there website? otherwise it don't matter

[Al Masters]

Good work Herbie!, i play a ton online, and played at WSEX when they 1st came out with their rake back prgram, i didnt stay long, now just a PS regular,once again good work on ****ing with the bot.

[LVHerbie]

hmmm... I sent an email yesterday asking for clarification about the other player and haven't received a response and tried a couple of times to get live support help today with the results below... At this point I think it isn't going to be beneficial for me to continue pushing this... Hopefully I've publicly documented everything well enough that I won't have future issues surrounding this situation...

<<
Aaron xxxxx (HerbieWE): info on investigation


You are now speaking with Anika of Poker/Casino/FSE.
Your party has left this session.

Aaron xxxxx (HerbieWE): info on investigation...


You are now speaking with Anika of Poker/Casino/FSE.
Aaron xxxxx (HerbieWE): Hi, Anika is Christopher available?
Your party has left this session. >>

[durito]

They won't pay you for 5 months if you win anyway so might as well give up.