Lebron should really be 1-4 in the Finals. Quit comparing him to the all-time greats

[BigDofBA]

Dude needed the Spurs to miss two free throws, blow a 5 point lead with 23 seconds, and Ray Allen to hit a desperation three to even get two titles.

All the while Lebron had to cherry pick two all-stars and a future hall of famer to even get his rings.

Jordan would have never done that.

Lebron is a great player and great athelete but he is nowhere near top 5 all-time and couldn't hold Jordan's jock. All of you 18-25 year olds that never saw MJ play need get off this Lebron kick.

How man Finals is Lebron going to lose? Not 1! Not 2! Not 3......

[KRIT]

Agree. He was lucky to win last year.

Real question is what does LeBron do next? Does he leave Miami? Or does he stay with Miami and have Miami re-tool. Miami will never cut/trade Wade, but Wade isn't taking him anywhere anytime soon.

[BigDofBA]

I think Lebron realizes he can't do it alone so he tries to court Duncan, Parker, Ginobli, and Popovich to coach the team in the off-season.

He couldn't win so he had to get Wade, Bosh, and Allen. Now he needs more.



The Heat beat a bunch of Rookies in OKC 4-1 but three of those games were one possession games in the final minute and OKC was too young to get it done in clutch time. Other than that, Lebron has struggled in the Finals to find ways to win. Who cares if you score 28. You have to will your team to a championship.

[t-wizzle]

They still won. I don't care about "should have lost." They didn't.

That said, he came up small tonight (ignore the stats) and has come up small before.

I've never been a Lebron guy. Phenomenal athlete. Incredible basketball player. But we all know there's that it factor missing with him.

[KRIT]

I think he'll stay in Miami....Don't think he wants to be remembered as a guy who keeps moving from team to team. But Miami needs to completely change the roster. They need to finally adress the PG and C position, and get legit bench players who can help out. No more relying on over the hill players like Battier, Lewis and Haslem.

[BigDofBA]

Phenomenal athlete. Incredible basketball player. But we all know there's that it factor missing with him.

This!

The dude is about as physically gifted as you could be and a great player.

With that said, he doesn't have what Jordan or even Kobe had. He doesn't have that killer instinct, our team is going to win because I'm going to will them to win.

[jtoler]

Bron reverted to the way he played last year against the Spurs in the first few games, looked like a deer in headlights.

[KRIT]

He doesn't have this:



Man i miss that guy. Kobe in his prime in the playoffs was must watch basketball.

[Fred The Hammer]

Great thread....so true and I'm not a LeBron hater at all. Not really related but just thought about this tonite....Mario Chalmers won the NCAA tourn and a NBA title because in both cases the dumbass opposing coach wouldn't foul with seconds left and a 3 pt lead. I don't care if Pop goes 7-1 in the finals...he was shit last year

[BigDofBA]

He doesn't have this:

I can't stand Kobe but even I've been saying this. You have to respect his game.

Kobe is higher on the all-time ladder than Lebron.

I loved watching Kobe own Lebron in all-star games. Lebron wouldn't even take the final shot over Kobe when Kobe was guarding him.

[survive]

Can't see Lebron leaving the east obviously. Cake walk to the finals every year

[BettingWizard]

guy is so obsessed with his FG%........proof is career low in assists, and his scoring is actually slightly down, despite shooting 7% better than any other year in his career. Basically, he makes other guys shoot the ball when the shot clock is running down, and/or passes early in the shot clock in hopes of cherry picking an easy basket.

[nomercysir]

This!

The dude is about as physically gifted as you could be and a great player.

With that said, he doesn't have what Jordan or even Kobe had. He doesn't have that killer instinct, our team is going to win because I'm going to will them to win.

What happened in game 2? How about game 6 when he was still ringless and was about to go down to the rival Celtics again? What about last year in game 6 when the Heat went into the 4th down big and he basically got them back (even took the lead before the Spurs hit some shots to setup the finish)? What about game 7?

I mean, I'm not a big LeBron fan was disappointed he came out so slow today, but the guy has had some huge games in pressure situations. Why should he be penalized for making the Finals and losing? Is it worse to not make the Finals?

Even the three-peat Lakers had some BS bailouts (eg, game #4 of Lakers/Kings in 2002 when their azz was saved by Horry).. what difference does it make if it's before the Finals?

People live way too much in the moment.

[Fred The Hammer]

What happened in game 2? How about game 6 when he was still ringless and was about to go down to the rival Celtics again? What about last year in game 6 when the Heat went into the 4th down big and he basically got them back (even took the lead before the Spurs hit some shots to setup the finish)? What about game 7?

I mean, I'm not a big LeBron fan was disappointed he came out so slow today, but the guy has had some huge games in pressure situations. Why should he be penalized for making the Finals and losing? Is it worse to not make the Finals?

Even the three-peat Lakers had some BS bailouts (eg, game #4 of Lakers/Kings in 2002 when their azz was saved by Horry).. what difference does it make if it's before the Finals?

People live way too much in the moment.

No man....go watch gm 6 last year and LeBron choked at the end...turned the ball over twice in the last 2 minutes and Popovich/Ray Allen saved him. Its happened time after time....guy turns 260 pound point guard way too often

[BigDofBA]

What happened in game 2? How about game 6 when he was still ringless and was about to go down to the rival Celtics again? What about last year in game 6 when the Heat went into the 4th down big and he basically got them back (even took the lead before the Spurs hit some shots to setup the finish)? What about game 7?

I mean, I'm not a big LeBron fan was disappointed he came out so slow today, but the guy has had some huge games in pressure situations. Why should he be penalized for making the Finals and losing? Is it worse to not make the Finals?

Even the three-peat Lakers had some BS bailouts (eg, game #4 of Lakers/Kings in 2002 when their azz was saved by Horry).. what difference does it make if it's before the Finals?

People live way too much in the moment.

I'm not overlooking that and give him credit. I said he was a great player.

It's ironic you talk about "living in the moment" because that's almost the whole point of this thread. The last two years people have been comparing Lebron to Jordan and talking about him like he might be the best player ever. That is living in the moment.

2-3 in the Finals with a bunch of all-stars and future hall of famers. I mean, that's not all-time great material. I guess I should be fair and say 2-2 since one loss was with the Cavs.

We should really be talking about Duncan. Rings in three decades.

[nomercysir]

Does only the last minute count? What about when the Spurs were up big and LeBron went on a huge scoring run by himself? If it sounds familiar, it's because it happened again this year in game 2. People just love to hate on this guy, but he's had huge pressure performances his whole career. He was on a shit team for most of it, and in the last four years he'll have four Finals appearances and two titles. I mean, yeah, maybe MJ would have gone 4/4 but it's not that bad!

[Scorpion]

Dude needed the Spurs to miss two free throws, blow a 5 point lead with 23 seconds, and Ray Allen to hit a desperation three to even get two titles.

All the while Lebron had to cherry pick two all-stars and a future hall of famer to even get his rings.

Jordan would have never done that.

Lebron is a great player and great athelete but he is nowhere near top 5 all-time and couldn't hold Jordan's jock. All of you 18-25 year olds that never saw MJ play need get off this Lebron kick.

How man Finals is Lebron going to lose? Not 1! Not 2! Not 3......

agree

[nomercysir]

I'm not overlooking that and give him credit. I said he was a great player.

It's ironic you talk about "living in the moment" because that's almost the whole point of this thread. The last two years people have been comparing Lebron to Jordan and talking about him like he might be the best player ever. That is living in the moment.

2-3 in the Finals with a bunch of all-stars and future hall of famers. I mean, that's not all-time great material. I guess I should be fair and say 2-2 since one loss was with the Cavs.

We should really be talking about Duncan. Rings in three decades.

OMG of course it's all-time great material. Yeah, the Heat are stacked but what championship team doesn't have talent? You don't think any of Kobe's title teams wasn't stacked? You don't think the Heat would suck without LeBron?

Keep in mind that Jordan lost repeatedly until he got help too. His resume at LeBron's age was comparable. Yes, he didn't lose in the Finals but he lost before.. is that better or worse?

LeBron isn't at MJ's level yet, but the idea that because he lost to good teams in the Finals is some kind of blemish on his career is absurd. It's just hating by people who don't like the guy for whatever reason.

[BigDofBA]

OMG of course it's all-time great material. Yeah, the Heat are stacked but what championship team doesn't have talent? You don't think any of Kobe's title teams wasn't stacked? You don't think the Heat would suck without LeBron?

Keep in mind that Jordan lost repeatedly until he got help too. His resume at LeBron's age was comparable. Yes, he didn't lose in the Finals but he lost before.. is that better or worse?

LeBron isn't at MJ's level yet, but the idea that because he lost to good teams in the Finals is some kind of blemish on his career is absurd. It's just hating by people who don't like the guy for whatever reason.

You can have your opinion.

I don't hate Lebron. I actually think he is a lot better than most athletes. He doesn't have 15 baby mommas, arrests, or felonies.

He is a great player. Just not all-time great as in top 10 or close to MJ.

[nomercysir]

When all is said and done, there is no way LeBron will be lower than 10 all-time. His resume already puts him in that tier. Basketball players are hard to rank because it is a team sport. You have guys like Dominique Wilkins who have indistinguishable stats than guys like Kobe, and yet one is ranked top-tier and one considered not even top-50 because of their teams. The fact is that LeBron spent most of his career on an awful team and carried them to some very impressive achievements, and somehow that is held against him because he couldn't win. Then he went to a great team and won 2 titles but because he didn't win 4, that, too, is held against him. I think the fact that people hold him to such a high standard means that they are ranking them as one of the greatest ever, whether they want to admit it or not.

[Fred The Hammer]

OMG of course it's all-time great material. Yeah, the Heat are stacked but what championship team doesn't have talent? You don't think any of Kobe's title teams wasn't stacked? You don't think the Heat would suck without LeBron?

Keep in mind that Jordan lost repeatedly until he got help too. His resume at LeBron's age was comparable. Yes, he didn't lose in the Finals but he lost before.. is that better or worse?

LeBron isn't at MJ's level yet, but the idea that because he lost to good teams in the Finals is some kind of blemish on his career is absurd. It's just hating by people who don't like the guy for whatever reason.

Alot of us don't hate the guy but he's just not as mentally tough as some of the greatest of all-time and thats not going to change this late in his career. I'm guessing you're a younger guy and maybe you didn't see Jordan, Bird, or Magic in their prime but they never wentpassivein alot of big games like LeBron does.

[nomercysir]

Actually I'm 40 and I was at the Forum for most of Magic's career. I even remember "Tragic Johnson" .. not exactly considered the epitome of mental toughness back then.

[Fred The Hammer]

Def top 10 ....cmon

[BigDofBA]

Alot of us don't hate the guy but he's just not as mentally tough as some of the greatest of all-time and thats not going to change this late in his career. I'm guessing you're a younger guy and maybe you didn't see Jordan, Bird, or Magic in their prime but they never wentpassivein alot of big games like LeBron does.

This guy gets it.

Never have I once said Lebron isn't a great player or athlete. He might be the best athlete to ever play the game. With that said, being on Jordan's level or even Kobe's takes more than being a great athlete.

He is what he is. I don't hate him or even blame him for going to play at Miami with two other great players.

[nomercysir]

He is right in that tier now, but since he has at least five or six years left, there is no doubt he'll be there at the end. He's going to be one of the all-time leading scorers and have better all-around numbers than anyone else in the top-5. He has 4 MVPs and 2 FMVPs already. 2 titles matches Wilt, only one less than Bird, etc-- and he'll probably get at least one or two more. There's just no argument unless his career ends prematurely.

[BettingWizard]

Jordan went to the ECF finals as a 6 seed in 1989, and when the East was actually really good. And no, Pippen wasn't an all-star yet. Nobody else on the team was. Also, nobody in the Bulls starting lineup played better in the playoffs, compared to their regular season stats, besides Jordan of course.


Beat a team with 57 wins in the first round. Jordan dropped 50 twice and game winning shot game 5 on the road

2nd round, on the road again, beat a team 4-2 with 52 wins in the Knicks.

Had a 2-1 series lead against the champion Pistons. It was the only 2 losses for the entire playoff season for the Pistons.


Lebron got swept when he finally faced a real team in the Spurs, and played like shit to boot. 35% shooting in the Finals.






The Cavs in 2007 beat one whole team with a winning record in the playoffs, and had home court the first 2 rounds, and only gave up 82 pts a game in the east playoffs. Daniel Gibson scored 31 points in the clincher against Detroit, otherwise they go to game 7 @ Detroit. So this whole "Lebron did it all with scrubs" is BS. Or at the very least, recognize his competition was scrubs too, in the East. Plus, Iverson had a better run in 2001, which devalues what Lebron did in 2007. There was already a precedent for a team to make a run in the garbage east.

[nomercysir]

This guy gets it.

Never have I once said Lebron isn't a great player or athlete. He might be the best athlete to ever play the game. With that said, being on Jordan's level or even Kobe's takes more than being a great athlete.

He is what he is. I don't hate him or even blame him for going to play at Miami with two other great players.

Please don't compare him to Kobe. Kobe is the most overrated player of all time. His reputation for "clutch" and "killer instinct" completely defies the actual performances. It's just that he has a penchant for taking and making ridiculous, bad shots and people remember when those (rarely) go in.

[BigDofBA]

Jordan went to the ECF finals as a 6 seed in 1989, and when the East was actually really good. And no, Pippen wasn't an all-star yet. Nobody else on the team was. Also, nobody in the Bulls starting lineup played better in the playoffs, compared to their regular season stats, besides Jordan of course.


Beat a team with 57 wins in the first round. Jordan dropped 50 twice and game winning shot game 5 on the road

2nd round, on the road again, beat a team 4-2 with 52 wins in the Knicks.

Had a 2-1 series lead against the champion Pistons. It was the only 2 losses for the entire playoff season for the Pistons.


Lebron got swept when he finally faced a real team in the Spurs, and played like shit to boot. 35% shooting in the Finals.






The Cavs in 2007 beat one whole team with a winning record in the playoffs, and had home court the first 2 rounds, and only gave up 82 pts a game in the east playoffs. Daniel Gibson scored 31 points in the clincher against Detroit, otherwise they go to game 7 @ Detroit. So this whole "Lebron did it all with scrubs" is BS. Or at the very least, recognize his competition was scrubs too, in the East. Plus, Iverson had a better run in 2001, which devalues what Lebron did in 2007. There was already a precedent for a team to make a run in the garbage east.

Yep!

Also, those Bulls teams didn't have great talent. Pippen was a nice player but Jordan really made him into who he was just like Jordan willed everyone on that team. Without Jordan Pippen was just a solid player but the Bulls were really nothing those two years Jordan was out.

Jordan is the kind of guy that would score 70 if that's what it took to win. Jordan would take on the world, still take the last shot, and make it.

[Fred The Hammer]

In LeBron's defense....taking the Cavs to the NBA finals is like qualifying for the INdy 500 in a Hyundai

[nomercysir]

Jordan went to the ECF finals as a 6 seed in 1989, and when the East was actually really good. And no, Pippen wasn't an all-star yet. Nobody else on the team was. Also, nobody in the Bulls starting lineup played better in the playoffs, compared to their regular season stats, besides Jordan of course.


Beat a team with 57 wins in the first round. Jordan dropped 50 twice and game winning shot game 5 on the road

2nd round, on the road again, beat a team 4-2 with 52 wins in the Knicks.

Had a 2-1 series lead against the champion Pistons. It was the only 2 losses for the entire playoff season for the Pistons.


Lebron got swept when he finally faced a real team in the Spurs, and played like shit to boot. 35% shooting in the Finals.






The Cavs in 2007 beat one whole team with a winning record in the playoffs, and had home court the first 2 rounds, and only gave up 82 pts a game in the east playoffs. Daniel Gibson scored 31 points in the clincher against Detroit, otherwise they go to game 7 @ Detroit. So this whole "Lebron did it all with scrubs" is BS. Or at the very least, recognize his competition was scrubs too, in the East. Plus, Iverson had a better run in 2001, which devalues what Lebron did in 2007. There was already a precedent for a team to make a run in the garbage east.

Jordan repeatedly got killed by the Celtics & Pistons in his early years, and I remember people saying he would never win with his style back then-- same as they said about LeBron on Cleveland. MJ just needed some help, and those Bulls teams got progressively better.

If you actually look at the roster LeBron took to the Finals-- that team had no business even being in the playoffs. Yeah, the East was weak as hell but he still had to beat Detroit, which had much of the same core (the 2004-5 squad) that was at one point the best defensive team of all time (and not even close). His performance in that series was fantastic.

And AI's Sixer teammates were way better than what LeBron had at any point in Cleveland.

Jeez, I'm not even an LBJ fan and it's ridiculous to have to defend him here, but it's just nonsense for people to always pile on a guy who has clearly been head and shoulders better than anyone in the league for years now. Yes, he plays passive at times and it is infuriating to watch, but he also has many huge performances and IMO what he did @Boston in 2012 was one of the greatest playoff games ever under probably the most pressure packed situation you can have (considering the implications for his "legacy" at the time).

[nomercysir]

Yep!
Without Jordan Pippen was just a solid player but the Bulls were really nothing those two years Jordan was out..

Pippen is the best perimeter defender of all time and no slouch on offense, and the Bulls won like 55 games when Jordan was out.

[Fred The Hammer]

Look at it this way.....Jordan, Bird, and Magic and players at that level of competiveness would never even of dream of playing together. THey thought about beating the other guys ass 24/7 and you can't do that if he's on your team.

[nomercysir]

Look at it this way.....Jordan, Bird, and Magic and players at that level of competiveness would never even of dream of playing together. THey thought about beating the other guys ass 24/7 and you can't do that if he's on your team.

Why the heck would Bird & Magic need to team up? They were on stacked teams already! Bird had McHale and Parish (and DJ and Ainge) and Magic had Kareem and Worthy (and Scott and Cooper). How can you possibly compare that to what LeBron had? Also, the league was way different in the 80s. Players stayed on teams their whole careers. That barely happens now. Why does LeBron get so chastised for leaving Cleveland? He played 7 years there and they never brought anyone good in. Is he held to such a standard that it only counts if he wins on a shit team?

Jordan, to his credit, stuck with a pretty bad team for some time, but I don't recall how the CBA and contracts worked then. I don't remember too many players demanding trades in the late 80s.

[jazzdrum78]

You can have your opinion.

I don't hate Lebron. I actually think he is a lot better than most athletes. He doesn't have 15 baby mommas, arrests, or felonies.

He is a great player. Just not all-time great as in top 10 or close to MJ.

I see eye to eye on a lot of your views, but man please not you too.

People just are going to hate Lebron. And after Jordan, every god damn asshole degenerate in here would take him #2 if their life depending on building a winning NBA team. Please just STFU with these ignorant threads.

[nomercysir]

I see eye to eye on a lot of your views, but man please not you too.

People just are going to hate Lebron. And after Jordan, every god damn asshole degenerate in here would take him #2 if their life depending on building a winning NBA team. Please just STFU with these ignorant threads.

I think the hate stems mostly from two groups. There are Kobe fans, who can't stand that the ONE thing Kobe had on LeBron-- rings-- changed when he moved to Miami, and it is their worst fear that LeBron is now considered the superior player amongst casual fans (true NBA followers have known this for years). The other group is MJ fans, who basically want to live in the past. I swear, it's like MJ gets more and more infallible as time goes on. I watched a lot of MJ back before he won and I remember all of the arguments about how he was a ballhog and "no Magic, no Bird" because the Bulls couldn't win. Same shit, different decade.

Just enjoy these players while they are around!