[QUOTE=chico2663;26946697]
Dammit Jim he's a douche not of this being!!
Originally posted by JBEX
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Sorry, I hijacked this.. Pretty simple guys, respect and you get it back 10x .. Don't come into anything in life and spout off shit you don't know just because you read it on the net . ( because the net is gospel) that's how I met my ex-wife pre-op TV.... Point is.. Respect one another.. That's what life is.. You cannot learn unless you release your mind... Do not disrespect people because they have a different opinion or , more importantly, because they know what they are talking about.. Be kind, rewind
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he shouldn't have gone into a foul mouth tirade but he apologized to me and rather not dig it up again..i agree about being respectful in here unless it's warranted not to.. again it was nice you stepped in on my behalfOriginally posted by BuckandadimeSorry, I hijacked this.. Pretty simple guys, respect and you get it back 10x .. Don't come into anything in life and spout off shit you don't know just because you read it on the net . ( because the net is gospel) that's how I met my ex-wife pre-op TV.... Point is.. Respect one another.. That's what life is.. You cannot learn unless you release your mind... Do not disrespect people because they have a different opinion or , more importantly, because they know what they are talking about.. Be kind, rewind
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I do not know you but i respect you.. Thank you..Originally posted by JBEXhe shouldn't have gone into a foul mouth tirade but he apologized to me and rather not dig it up again..i agree about being respectful in here unless it's warranted not to.. again it was nice you stepped in on my behalf
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I can dig itOriginally posted by BuckandadimeSorry, I hijacked this.. Pretty simple guys, respect and you get it back 10x .. Don't come into anything in life and spout off shit you don't know just because you read it on the net . ( because the net is gospel) that's how I met my ex-wife pre-op TV.... Point is.. Respect one another.. That's what life is.. You cannot learn unless you release your mind... Do not disrespect people because they have a different opinion or , more importantly, because they know what they are talking about.. Be kind, rewind
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Originally posted by BuckandadimeI do not know you but i respect you.. Thank you..
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Memories crash on tireless waves it's the Lifeguard whom the winter saves
I just had to put that out thereComment -
Keep on dreaming cause when you die..Originally posted by harthebar
Both of you gents..
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man buck i dont know how to take that....i was backing up what you said in post 37...thought it was pretty real.....Originally posted by buckandadimekeep on dreaming cause when you die..
Both of you gents..
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It is Sir.. Always.. Blind Melon.. *Change*
Sorry..my go to song sometimes.. Still got me .. Fixin to grade yesterday.. You were a madman!!!
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ha ha mine was from peter gabriel my go to guyOriginally posted by buckandadimeit is sir.. Always.. Blind melon.. *change*
sorry..my go to song sometimes.. Still got me .. Fixin to grade yesterday.. You were a madman!!!
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you know what if looking at lee wins......i had a 2.00 tri i thought he was going to for a second...you know that feeling you get when you think your a big winner.....the hairs on the back of your head start to stand...........would of should of ....huh i had 3 of the 4 and loved looking at lee.....still cashed and happy....and i got my win bet back from tvg i forgot about thatOriginally posted by buckandadimeit is sir.. Always.. Blind melon.. *change*
sorry..my go to song sometimes.. Still got me .. Fixin to grade yesterday.. You were a madman!!!
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That's what its about!! In every phase of life.. I can't say anything else..Originally posted by harthebar
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Buck I don't remember inviting you or jbex into my thread. He told me that northern dancer wasn't in his lineage. I was wrong to say it was grandfather when it is great grandfather. He later admitted that the horse was all over the lineage. I cashed in the derby. Did you? But
my feeling is don't go into someone else's thread and call them a liar. I didn't ask or need his ,your or anyone else's help/.Comment -
also stick this is your pipe douche buck and a bitch
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Buck I don't remember inviting you or jbex into my thread
wow I need an invitation to post in someone's thread
He told me that northern dancer wasn't in his lineage
No I said your horse's grandsires weren't half brothers to him which is what you said
He later admitted that the horse was all over the lineage
I just agreed with you that he was but again what's that got to do with what you originally said.. there's like 3 strands of ND in his pedigree ..so what ?
my feeling is don't go into someone else's thread and call them a liar
I didn't call you a liar.. just said you were wrongComment -
in your original post you said i was wrong. Didn't say how I was wrong. But then you said the grandfathers. I said it also had affirmed in it. You said where once again assuming I was wrong. As i said been here for awhile. I don't need your friend coming into my post saying shit. If you come into my post at least have the decency to tell me why I'm wrong. Don't just make a disingenuous statement that i was wrong. TELL me how I was wrong You said I was wrong calling you a name. I believe anyone that uses a site without donating to it is a broke deek. It is how I believe. So if you think that was insulting than i'm sorry.Comment -
Wrong and liar are just semanticsComment -
hmm.. yeah guess I could have given the explanation right away ..i agree with that.. it was derby day and everyone's coming into this forum for helpful information
and your post was inaccurate.. Just an honest mistake on your part and not a crime by any means ..Why was my statement disingenuous.. you were wrong after all correct ? if you don't like "broke deek" non-pros that's up to you but has no bearing on what we're discussingComment -
your right should of made it a pro's only thread. My bad.Comment -
As i said my eyes are bad even with glasses. You can't prove who his grandfather was half brother to but in the geneology is shows northern dancer is in his roots. So i'm sure that tvg would of never made that statement if it wasn't trueComment -
Northern Dancer retired to stud in 1965 at Taylor's Windfields Farm in Oshawa, Ontario for an initial fee of $10,000.[16] A ramp was built in the breeding shed to allow the Dancer to service mares who were larger than him.[24] His first crop reached racing age in 1968 and "came out running."[8]
"His first crop, he had a horse named Viceregal who was undefeated and was horse of the year in Canada," said Ed Bowen, former editor of The Blood-Horse. "His first foals ran so well. Northern Dancer had that aura about him right away." As a result of his success, he was relocated to the Maryland branch of Windfields in 1969, where he remained until his death in 1990.[8]
He was the leading sire in North America in 1971, and also in 1977 when international earnings are included.[2] His progeny were highly sought in Europe, where he became the leading sire in Great Britain and Ireland in 1970, 1978, 1983 and 1984.[25]
Lyphard resembled his father closely[26]
He was one of the 20th century's most successful Thoroughbred sires.[27] According to Jockey Club records, Northern Dancer sired 411 winners (63.7%) and 147 stakes winners (22.8%) from 645 named foals.[3] Most of his progeny resembled him in size and shape: Nijinsky, who stood over 16 hands, proved the exception.[28] They also generally had excellent balance and acceleration.[3] His major stakes winners include:[29]
- Viceregal - Canadian Horse of the Year (1969)[30]
- Nijinsky II - winner of the 1970 English Triple Crown, English Horse of the Year[31]
- Fanfreluche - Canadian Horse of the Year (1970)[32]
- Lyphard - 1972 Prix Jacques le Marois and Prix de la Forêt[26]
- Northernette - Canadian champion filly at ages 2 (1976) and 3 (1977)[33]
- The Minstrel - winner of the 1977 Epsom and Irish Derbies, English Horse of the Year[34]
- Try My Best - 1977 Champion two-year-old in England and Ireland[35]
- Nureyev - 1980 French Champion miler. Finished first in 2000 Guineas but was disqualified[36]
- Lomond - 1983 2000 Guineas[37]
- Shareef Dancer - 1983 Irish Derby[38]
- El Gran Senor - 1984 2000 Guineas, Irish Derby. English Champion at ages 2 and 3[39]
- Secreto - 1984 Epsom Derby[40]
- Sadler's Wells - 1984 Irish 2000 Guineas[41]
With the success of his offspring, Northern Dancer's stud fee rose, slowly at first: from $10,000 (live foal) in 1965, to $15,000 (live foal) in 1969, to $25,000 (live foal) in 1971 to $35,000 ($10,000 of which was non-refundable) in 1975 to $50,000 (no guarantee) in 1978. His published fee, with no guarantee that a live foal would result, then started a rapid increase: $100,000 in 1980, $150,000 in 1981, $250,000 in 1982, $300,000 in 1983 and $500,000 in 1984. For his final years at stud (1985-1987), his breeding rights were privately negotiated,[16] with one season selling at auction for $1 million[42] — an amount four to five times that of his closest rivals.[43] By contrast, the highest North American stud fee in 2016 is $300,000 for Tapit.[44]
When Northern Dancer was 20 years old (an advanced age for a stallion), a European syndicate offered US$40 million for him. The offer was turned down.[3] Northern Dancer's entry into stud service was ranked #28 in Horse Racing's Top 100 Moments, a review of racing in the 20th century compiled by The Blood-Horse and released in 2006.[3]
Sales records[edit]
Former Keeneland chairman Ted Bassett wrote in his autobiography that between 1974 and 1988, the sons and daughters of Northern Dancer fetched the highest prices of all sires at the yearling sales 12 times, "and that constitutes a record that may last forever."[8] Northern Dancer's yearlings also led the Keeneland July Selected Yearling Sale by average price 12 times in the same period. In 1984, 12 yearlings by Northern Dancer sold for an unrivaled sale-record average price of US$3,446,666 (about $7.9 million adjusted for inflation).[45] Combined over a period of 22 years, the top 174 Northern Dancer offspring at the Keeneland Sales sold for a total $160 million.[43] The bidding duels between John Magnier and Robert Sangster of Coolmore Stud and Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum of Darley Stud became legendary.[46][47]
As of 2014, the top ten horses on the list of top auction prices were descended from Northern Dancer. This includes three sired by Northern Dancer himself and sold at Keeneland: Snaafi Dancer, who became the first $10-million yearling when sold to Sheikh Mohammed for $10.2 million in 1983;[46] a colt out of Ballade later named Imperial Falcon, who sold for $8.25 million to Sangster in 1984;[48] and a colt out of Fabuleux Jane later named Jareer, who sold for $7.1 million to Darley Stud.[49]
Sire of sires[edit]
See also: Northern Dancer sire line
In 1990, the New York Times called Northern Dancer "the dominant progenitor of his breed."[43] His leading sire sons included:
- Be My Guest - leading sire in Great Britain and Ireland (1982)[25]
- Danzig - leading sire in North America (1991-1993). also a sire of sires, including Danehill, leading sire in both Europe and Australia[50]
- El Gran Senor - sire of 55 stakes winners, also an important broodmare sire[39]
- Fairy King - leading sire in France 1986. also a sire of sires, including Encosta de Lago in Australia[51]
- Lyphard - led the French sire list in 1978 and 1979, American sire list in 1986, also an outstanding broodmare sire[26]
- Nijinsky II - led the English sire list in 1986, when he placed second in North America as well. leading American broodmare sire in 1993 and 1994. sire of sires including Caerleon[31]
- Northern Taste - ten-time leading sire in Japan, also a leading broodmare sire[52]
- Nureyev - led the French sire list in 1987, also a leading broodmare sire[36]
- Sadler's Wells - thirteen-time leading sire in Great Britain and Ireland. also a sire of sires, including Galileo.[41] Sire of 12 English Classics winners[53]
- Storm Bird - sire of 62 stakes winners, including leading American sire Storm Cat[54]
- Vice Regent - led the Canadian sire list thirteen times[55]
Although Northern Dancer never sired a winner of any of the American Triple Crown races, his sons made up for this shortfall. Their American Classic winners were:
- Kentucky Derby - Ferdinand (1986) by Nijinsky
- Preakness Stakes - Gate Dancer (1984) and Louis Quatorze (1996), both by Sovereign Dancer, Pine Bluff by Danzig (1992) and Summer Squall (1990) by Storm Bird
- Belmont Stakes - Danzig Connection (1986) by Danzig and Go and Go (1990) by Be My Guest
He also was the grandsire of 1991 Canadian Triple Crown winner Dance Smartly, who also became the first Canadian-bred to win a Breeders' Cup race, the 1991 Breeders' Cup Distaff. A Hall of Famer in both Canada and the United States, she was also a success as a broodmare.[56]
Northern Dancer was a four-time Leading sire in Great Britain and Ireland, a feat achieved one time each by his sons Be My Guest and Nijinsky, 14 times by his son Sadler's Wells, two times by his grandson Caerleon, three times by his grandson Danehill, and eight times (as of 2016) by his grandson Galileo – a total of 33 champion sire titles in just the direct Northern Dancer to grandson bloodline. Adding his great-grandson Danehill Dancer, who was the leading sire in 2009, the Northern Dancer sire line accounted for every champion sire title in Great Britain and Ireland from 1990 to 2016 inclusive.[25]
Although he has been dead since 1990, more Northern Dancer-descended horses are Breeder's Cup winners than from any other horse.[57] According to pedigree consultant John Sparkman, 35 to 40 percent of American graded stakes winners of 2013 were male line descendants of Northern Dancer. In Europe and Australia, the percentage is well over 60 per cent.[27]
Northern Dancer's impact continues well into the 21st century. In North America, American Pharoah, winner of the 2015 U.S. Triple Crown is 5 x 5 inbred to Northern Dancer, through Storm Bird and El Gran Senor.[58] California Chrome, winner of the 2014 Kentucky Derby and 2014 Preakness Stakes, is inbred 4 x 5 to Northern Dancer on his dam's side. Other American classic winners that are inbred to Northern Dancer include: I'll Have Another, winner of the 2012 Derby and Preakness; Animal Kingdom, winner of the 2011 Derby; Union Rags, winner of the 2012 Belmont and Drosselmeyer, winner of the 2011 Belmont.[59] Shackleford, winner of the 2012 Preakness, is a 4th generation descendant in the male line via Storm Cat.[60] In 2009, Northern Dancer was an ancestor of the winners of all three U.S. Triple Crown races: Mine That Bird in the Kentucky Derby, Rachel Alexandra in the Preakness, and Summer Bird in the Belmont. Northern Dancer is the great-grandsire (on both the sire and dam side) of Big Brown, the winner of the 2008 Kentucky Derby and Preakness Stakes.[59]
Makybe Diva is a descendant of Northern Dancer
In Australia, the undefeated mare Black Caviar traces to Northern Dancer both in the direct sire line through Nijinsky and in the broodmare sire line through Danzig. An earlier Australian champion, Sunline, was bred on the reverse cross.[61] The great mare Makybe Diva, three-time winner of the Melbourne Cup, is inbred 4 x 4 x 4 to Northern Dancer.[62] In Japan, although Sunday Silence's line dominates the leading sire lists, many of his best runners were out of Northern Dancer line mares. This includes Japanese Horses of the Year Orfevre,[63]Deep Impact and Gentildonna.[64]
In England, Northern Dancer's bloodline is pervasive.[47] He is the paternal grand-sire of a record 29 different English Classic winners — the next closest in this regard is St. Simon with 23.[53] Undefeated racehorse Frankel is inbred 3 x 4 to Northern Dancer, meaning Northern Dancer appears once in the third generation and once in the fourth generation of his pedigree.[65] As for the Epsom Derby, every winner since 1998 has had Northern Dancer in his pedigree,[66] almost all through the male sire-line. Galileo, High Chaparral, Motivator, New Approach, Sea the Stars, Camelot, Australia, Golden Horn and Harzand are included in this number.[40]
Inbreeding[edit]
Because of the prevalence of Northern Dancer's bloodline, a certain degree of inbreeding to him is becoming common, especially in Europe and Australia.[67] Whenever this happens, there is a concern that the inbreeding will weaken the breed, making horses more prone to injury and potentially leading to inbreeding depression. Statistical studies have shown that inbreeding has increased by a small but significant amount in the last 50 years, partly because of the larger number of foals that a successful stallion will now sire each year compared to in the past.[68] To illustrate this last point, Northern Dancer produced 645 foals[3] in 20 years at stud, whereas his grandson Danehill sired 2,499 foals[69] in 14 years at stud.
The undefeated Frankel is inbred to Northern Dancer
Statistical analysis has shown that inbreeding to Northern Dancer is on average slightly less effective than when stallions of his line are bred to mares who do not have Northern Dancer in their pedigree (referred to as an outcross).[67] However, many successful stallions are inbred, in part because this can make it easier to pass on dominant characteristics. Successful sires that are inbred to Northern Dancer (within four generations) include Oasis Dream, Rock of Gibraltar, Hernando, Spinning World, and Redoute's Choice.[70] The undefeated Frankel is also inbred to Northern Dancer, but it is too early to evaluate his success as a stallion as his first crop just reached racing age in 2016.[65]
Analysis of inbreeding to Northern Dancer has shown that best practice is inbreeding "through" the best, which means to use horses that have demonstrated their fitness on the racecourse. In contrast, inbreeding to a descendant such as Danzig for example is viewed as potentially problematic because he was retired from racing due to unsoundness after only three starts.[71] However, Danzig line horses have been crossed successfully with other Northern Dancer line horses, especially Sadlers' Wells.[72]
Outcross bloodlines can still be found, most notably via the German-bred stallion Monsun.[73] Northern Dancer lines were originally outcrossed on descendants of Mr. Prospector or Nasrullah, but this had been done to such as extent that it is increasingly difficult to find horses from these lines without some trace of Northern Dancer breeding.[74]
In North America, Northern Dancer often appears further back in the pedigree of major stallions, which reduces the risks associated with inbreeding. For example, Tapit, the leading sire in North America for 2014-2015, is inbred to Nijinsky 3 x 5 (thus only 4 x 6 to Northern Dancer) and has crossed well on mares from other Northern Dancer lines.[75]
End of life and burial[edit]
Northern Dancer was retired from stud on April 15, 1987 at the age of 26. After a severe attack of colic, he was euthanized on November 16, 1990 at the age of 29, and his remains were brought back to Canada for burial at Windfields Farm in Oshawa, Ontario.[7] Windfields Farm has subsequently been sold to the University of Ontario, and Northern Dancer's burial site is not publicly accessible.[76] There is a proposal to designate portions of the Farm, including Northern Dancer's grave near Barn 6, under the Ontario Heritage Act.[77]
Recognition[edit]
Statue of Northern Dancer at Woodbine Racetrack
In 1964, Northern Dancer was the American Champion Three-Year-Old Male Horse and the Canadian Horse of the Year.[3] In 1965, he became the first horse voted into Canada's Sports Hall of Fame.[78] In 1976, Northern Dancer was an inaugural inductee to the new Canadian Horse Racing Hall of Fame[7] and was also inducted into the United States Horse Racing Hall of Fame.[79] In 1977, Northern Dancer won three world sires' premiership titles for the number of international stakes winners, international stakes wins, and total stake earnings of his progeny.[4]
Northern Dancer was inducted into the Ontario Sports Hall of Fame in 1998.[80] In 1999, Canada Post honoured the horse with his image placed on a postage stamp.[81] A residential street was named after Northern Dancer on the former site of the Greenwood Race Track in east-end Toronto.[82] Also, a life-sized bronze statue of the horse was placed outside Woodbine Race Track in northwest Toronto.
Over the decades, a number of books have been written about Northern Dancer. In 1995, Muriel Lennox, who had worked for Taylor, published Northern Dancer: The Legend and His Legacy.[16] In 2003, Avalyn Hunter's book American Classic Pedigrees (1914–2002), extensively covered the influence of Northern Dancer on North America classic winners around the end of the 20th century.[83] Her later book, The Kingmaker: How Northern Dancer Founded a Racing Dynasty covers Northern Dancer's international legacy.[84] In 2015, Kevin Chong wrote Northern Dancer: The Legendary Horse That Inspired A Nation.[85]
In 2011, the Canadian HorseComment -
chico we were headed in the right direction yesterday.. why don't we just end this bickering.. my intention was only to get the information correct and that is all.. I agree with you I should have stated my case right away.. if you continue arguing with buck and a dime it's gonna make it tough for me to be civil with you..guess I'll just be neutral if that's the case..nothing that terrible was done here imoOriginally posted by chico2663Comment -
that is great stuff you posted on him and gonna read it later.. love pedigree infoComment -
As i said his father grandfather was half brother to a northern dancer horse. The name of the horse was eagle eyed.Comment -
his paternal great grandfather was a full to eagle eyed and also an elite sire in europe danehillComment -
i used to make a shit load of money off lord at war horses. especially on the turf. No one used to know anything about those horses . I cash on plenty of 20-1 shots or more. It is why i knew about that horse. i always try to find back classComment -
yeah remember him.. great turf sire.. every once in a while you'll see him as the dam sire..mr prospector and northern dancer greatest ever (at least 2nd half 20th century).. storm cat best 90's - 2000's and ap indy more 2000's..of course storm cat a grandson of ndComment -
add seattle slew, a p indy's pop, and danzig (nd) and you've got this country covered for top sires 2nd half 20th century... drop off to all others imoOriginally posted by JBEXComment -
NORTHERN DANCER, the greatest of all time. Dirt and turf,sprints and routes.Comment -
I think with mr p you had to add stamina or turf with the female family.. guessing that was less true with nd but that's where my off the top of my head knowledge ends.. danzig has war front now (250k) but I think overall he wasn't a great producer of sires.. I used to buy mdn stats books in the late 90's and no sire could compete with him as far as winning debuters or % of turf winners from starters.. but i think he vs all the others drops off significantly as a sire of sires... probably better in europeOriginally posted by JayTris07Comment -
I'm learning a lot in here.Comment -
I love this stuff hart..always haveOriginally posted by harthebarComment -
one of the other really interesting pedigree things has to do with the great bold ruler .. champion horse of the late 50's and great sire of the 60's through early 70's..He is the great grandsire (paternal) of seattle slew and of course the sire of secretariat.. ap Indy is 4x3 to bold ruler as he's out of secretariat mare by seattle slew.. storm cat also is out of a secretariat mare ..thats pretty amazing being the dam sire of two mega sires.. secretariat also the dam sire of gone west, woodman and summer squall all solid sires when they were at stud.. his blood will be flowing through a lot of good horses for a long time to comeComment
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