Phan +135 v. Garcia

[Poppa Catfish]

you don`t think white and the ufc has any gravitas with the nevada athletic commission?....with all the events they hold in vegas...the millions they bring into a failing economy?......

it wouldn`t be all that hard to find out which refs are consistently shitty......

i`d say that vegas,given their shitty economy and high unemployment rate needs the ufc....the ufc is global now...

it`s up to white to broach the issue with them....

this is harming his product....

No. I really don't think they have any pull whatsoever. I actually think its them (the UFC) bending over backwards to satisfy commissions to continue to break into untapped markets/ keep control in current ones.

Also will echo what Lasker said, Nam Phan and Korean Zombie winning those decisions would have been much better over all for the UFC.

[Flexin]

this "don`t leave it in the hands of the judges" b.s. is nothing more than the ufc/state commissions sherking their responsibility to the fighters and the sport... utter crap...get judges that get it...it`s that f-cking simple.... this shit shouldn`t happen every event.....sometimes,multiple times in an event... we all have to do our jobs competently.....stop sherking yours/ufc/nevada state athletic commission..... and believe me...if white wanted it changed,it would happen....don`t let that bald f-ck off the hook for the product he puts out there..

Yes bad judges should be tossed. But Judges normally (in Boxing anyway) sit on different sides of the ring so they see the fight different ways. Even a good judge can get it wrong a few times.

The only thing I can see that White can do is to run the fights in states that are doing a better job hiring judges that know what they are doing. That and make a lot of noise about the bad decisions to try to force them to make changes.

James

[lasker]

Its a judged fight. As you can see by this forum and thread not everyone has the same opinion. So your leaving it in the hands of someone else. Your best bet is to not allow that to happen if at all possible. He had him hurt. He wasn't landing many when he had him on his back. Let his dazed ass back up and drop him again. And in the UFC it is almost easy to finish the fight if you have them hurt like that. If you can get on them and just land a shit load of unanswered shots the fight will be over.

Yes, so easy that Garcia has been finished a grand total of one time in 22 fights, losing five times by decision. And the one time he was finished it was by submission (and to mike brown, a former champion and one of the elite in his division). It doesn't need to be mentioned how frequently one fighter rocks another with strikes and then finishes with a submission, more often than not the RNC.

To say that Phan did something wrong by going for that RNC finish (and totally dominate the round, with almost zero risk in the process) is absurd. Equally absurd to say there was any certainty Garcia would have been finished by strikes had Phan backed off. He was rocked but still had his wits about him. Let's not make excuses. Phan did his job, he won the fight, and he was robbed by yet another bullshit decision.

As for it being a judged fight and not everyone having the same opinion, as I've said before, there are some fights that are genuinely close and there are others where there is clearly a right and wrong decision to be made. This was the latter. Garcia was outstruck throughout the fight, and outgrappled when it did hit the ground, and I challenge to provide stats or any reasonable argument to the contrary. To his credit, Garcia himself acknowledged that he should have lost.

[Flexin]

If Phan going to be given a chance to fight in the UFC? I know he doesn't get the big contract but does he get signed for a few fights?

James

[rocky mattioli]

well,then why is cecil peoples judging fights not only in vegas,but outside vegas(see shalorus/varner in canada)......this guy shouldn`t be watching,much less judging....

this is the same cecil peoples that said"i don`t count kicks"....

it`s white and the fetitta`s product.....if you don`t think they have say in what goes down,i don`t know what else to tell you....

[Flexin]

Yes, so easy that Garcia has been finished a grand total of one time in 22 fights, losing five times by decision. And the one time he was finished it was by submission. It doesn't need to be mentioned how frequently one fighter rocks another with strikes and then finishes with a submission, more often than not the RNC. To say that Phan did something wrong by going for that RNC finish (and totally dominate the round, with almost zero risk in the process) is absurd. As for it being a judged fight and not everyone having the same opinion, as I've said before, there are some fights that are genuinely close and there are others where there is clearly a right and wrong decision to be made. This was the latter. Garcia was outstruck throughout the fight, and outgrappled when it did hit the ground, and I challenge to provide stats or any reasonable argument to the contrary. To his credit, Garcia himself acknowledged that he should have lost.

I don't care how many times he was finished. He was rocked here. Phan should have kept pounding the shit out of him. He gave him time to rest.

It doesn't really matter, Phan won that fight and should have had his hand raised.

My point is a judged sport leaves your win or loss in someone elses hands. It could be freestyle motocross, diving or fighting. But fights sports is one judged sport that allows you to win without the judges say. So if you have a chance to finish the fight early you need to take it.

James

[Flexin]

well,then why is cecil peoples judging fights not only in vegas,but outside vegas(see shalorus/varner in canada)......this guy shouldn`t be watching,much less judging.... this is the same cecil peoples that said"i don`t count kicks".... it`s white and the fetitta`s product.....if you don`t think they have say in what goes down,i don`t know what else to tell you....

I don't care whos product it is. Unless they want to go underground they don't have control of that part of the fight. You have to work under the rules of that states commission. If you don't like what they are doing you have two choices. One is to bitch and make noise till they change it or the second is to fight somewhere else. Fighting somewhere else is something they do have control over.

James

[lasker]

I don't care how many times he was finished. He was rocked here. Phan should have kept pounding the shit out of him. He gave him time to rest. It doesn't really matter, Phan won that fight and should have had his hand raised. My point is a judged sport leaves your win or loss in someone elses hands. It could be freestyle motocross, diving or fighting. But fights sports is one judged sport that allows you to win without the judges say. So if you have a chance to finish the fight early you need to take it. James

Whether you care or not how often he has been finished, it's somewhat relevant, don't you think? 22 fights with THAT style, getting hit and rocked often, and only finished once. He has been rocked plenty of times before and never finished by strikes. Having someone rocked and finishing them are two completely different things. To say it's "almost easy" to finish someone like Garcia just because they're rocked is silly IMO... he is notoriously hard to finish, and he wasn't so badly rocked that it would have been "easy" to finish him there.

Besides, Phan did go for the finish and came close. Phan could have possibly won that fight by submission, and in many other scenarios it would have happened, it just didn't happen to work this time. What about all the times fighters rock their opponents with strikes and then do finish with submission? Are they all fools?

He tried to finish the fight, he won the fight, he did nothing wrong. Nam Phan deserves none of the blame for this whatsoever, and I'm really surprised that anyone would dispute this.

[Poppa Catfish]

I don't care how many times he was finished. He was rocked here. Phan should have kept pounding the shit out of him. He gave him time to rest.

It doesn't really matter, Phan won that fight and should have had his hand raised.

My point is a judged sport leaves your win or loss in someone elses hands. It could be freestyle motocross, diving or fighting. But fights sports is one judged sport that allows you to win without the judges say. So if you have a chance to finish the fight early you need to take it.

James

I agree with you there James, and actually the one positive out of the wheel o' decision is that it is the best incentive that we have for fighters to actually try and finish fights.

[Flexin]

well,then why is cecil peoples judging fights not only in vegas,but outside vegas(see shalorus/varner in canada)......this guy shouldn`t be watching,much less judging.... this is the same cecil peoples that said"i don`t count kicks".... it`s white and the fetitta`s product.....if you don`t think they have say in what goes down,i don`t know what else to tell you....

BTW the I don't judge kicks is part of my point. Different judges look for different things. And it also depends on the angle they are watching from. We see it better on tv most of the time.

Look at football, they review a TD and from 3 angles it looks like the TD is good. Find that perfect angle and bang, the ball was dropped, TD is no good. Without that angle it ends up a bad call. If you are judging a fight and see most of the fight from the back of the aggressive fighter you see a guy kicking ass. But a judge from the side might see a fighter coming up inches short on his punches, blocked punches and counters from the other fighter landing cleanly. So that part sucks.

But then you just have bad judges.

It might be better to have a good judge watching from a monitor rather then watching from ring side because they will get a better view that way. Maybe have 2 judges ringside and 2 judging from monitors.

I don't think you can stop bad decisions completely but with some of these fights, this one included which Ray Charles could have judged right.

James

[Flexin]

Whether you care or not how often he has been finished, it's somewhat relevant, don't you think? 22 fights with THAT style, getting hit and rocked often, and only finished once. He has been rocked plenty of times before and never finished by strikes. Having someone rocked and finishing them are two completely different things. To say it's "almost easy" to finish someone like Garcia just because they're rocked is silly IMO... he is notoriously hard to finish, and he wasn't so badly rocked that it would have been "easy" to finish him there. Besides, Phan did go for the finish and came close. Phan could have possibly won that fight by submission, and in many other scenarios it would have happened, it just didn't happen to work this time. What about all the times fighters rock their opponents with strikes and then do finish with submission? Are they all fools? He tried to finish the fight, he won the fight, he did nothing wrong. Nam Phan deserves none of the blame for this whatsoever, and I'm really surprised that anyone would dispute this.

I'm not blaming Pham. Its just something he could have done different. Its one thing I don't like about MMA which is where you can just sit on someones chest and hit them and get the fight. But he could have tried that or let him up and hurt him some more. If the would have went to the feet right away I think he could have put him away with his hands.

It sucks he got robbed. I feel he fought a nice fight.

The only good thing about this is that there could be a rematch where these two fighters train to fight each other which could be amazing.

James

[lasker]

Perhaps. Anyway, the main point is that he got robbed. And what's sad and even pathetic is that it's now surprising if a UFC event happens without any robberies. Something needs to be done. Change the judging system to allow more 10-8 or 10-10 rounds, perhaps. I don't know. But something needs to be done about this. So frustrating just for the spectators, but one can imagine how much more frustrating for the fighters who are denied win bonuses and possibly even their jobs because of this bullshit.

[Flexin]

Whether you care or not how often he has been finished, it's somewhat relevant, don't you think? 22 fights with THAT style, getting hit and rocked often, and only finished once. He has been rocked plenty of times before and never finished by strikes. Having someone rocked and finishing them are two completely different things. To say it's "almost easy" to finish someone like Garcia just because they're rocked is silly IMO... he is notoriously hard to finish, and he wasn't so badly rocked that it would have been "easy" to finish him there. Besides, Phan did go for the finish and came close. Phan could have possibly won that fight by submission, and in many other scenarios it would have happened, it just didn't happen to work this time. What about all the times fighters rock their opponents with strikes and then do finish with submission? Are they all fools? He tried to finish the fight, he won the fight, he did nothing wrong. Nam Phan deserves none of the blame for this whatsoever, and I'm really surprised that anyone would dispute this.

I forgot to answer a question.

You need to relax. I'm not calling him a fool. If he got the RNC in then it would have been great. I don't think he was a fool for trying but seem to wear himself out a bit trying for it. He had the fight won on his feet, I didn't see the need to go to the ground.

You have to remember I a boxing fan.

James

[Poppa Catfish]

Perhaps. Anyway, the main point is that he got robbed. And what's sad and even pathetic is that it's now surprising if a UFC event happens without any robberies. Something needs to be done. Change the judging system to allow more 10-8 or 10-10 rounds, perhaps. I don't know. But something needs to be done about this. So frustrating just for the spectators, but one can imagine how much more frustrating for the fighters who are denied win bonuses and possibly even their jobs because of this bullshit.

I read an article about the California commission starting up a half point system in the amateur ranks, I think that would do wonders to clear up some of these bad decisions. Not all of them mind you, but some of these

[lasker]

Sorry James, didn't mean to be so argumentative with you, I'm just riled up right now because I feel robbed too after betting on Phan

[Flexin]

Perhaps. Anyway, the main point is that he got robbed. And what's sad and even pathetic is that it's now surprising if a UFC event happens without any robberies. Something needs to be done. Change the judging system to allow more 10-8 or 10-10 rounds, perhaps. I don't know. But something needs to be done about this. So frustrating just for the spectators, but one can imagine how much more frustrating for the fighters who are denied win bonuses and possibly even their jobs because of this bullshit.

It sucks for everyone. Maybe even more for the fighters. If its a really exciting fight then they should be safe but if it wasn't all that exciting and you get robbed a few times there could be a chance that you get booted by the UFC. They don't seem to like keeping guys around if they lose to much so it can hurt the fighters to get robbed.

James

[Flexin]

I read an article about the California commission starting up a half point system in the amateur ranks, I think that would do wonders to clear up some of these bad decisions. Not all of them mind you, but some of these

I haven't heard about this. How are they doing it?

Sorry James, didn't mean to be so argumentative with you, I'm just riled up right now because I feel robbed too after betting on Phan

No problem. I never even thought about that side of it because I wasn't happy he got robbed. Sorry to hear that. Everyone that bet Phan was robbed.

James

[Poppa Catfish]

For your perusal http://sports.espn.go.com/extra/mma/...ory?id=5875187

[Flexin]

For your perusal http://sports.espn.go.com/extra/mma/...ory?id=5875187

Thanks for the link. It seems interesting. It will be interesting to see if it works. After reading it, it seems to be a good idea. I like the forth judge.

You can still have problems because its still each judges opinion but it should make it better.

Maybe even better training for judges.

Maybe even former fighters as judges.

James

[Eccocide]

Garcia fools the judges with punch volume, making noises when he throws hard and coming forward. He rarely lands much but the judges percieve this as aggressiveness and octagon control. He may get picked apart on the feet and still win (as he has done in the past). Its a no play for me!

. Sorry to those that bet on Nam but this came as little surprise to me. Nam should have went for the kill when he had the chance. He played it extremely cautious in the 3rd and it cost him. Horrible decision, but it was pretty much on point with any Garcia fight lol. And no, the UFC has nothing, NOTHING to do with the judging. The conspiracy theories are getting kind of old and played out.

[sportsfanatic]

Not necesarily advocating play here just yet. But i did take a piece at +135 and wondering others opinions. Every Garcia fight seems to play out the same. He doesnt use any bjj he might have and i feel that him and Phan have similiar styles. Phan showed good chin on TUF and seems to be more technical than Garcia. Expect close, exciting fight here. Think -125/-105 or -120/-110 more appropriate.

Any opinions?

good call there. +135 was great value.

phan won but you don't leave the decision in the judges hands.

[brooks85]

nam clearly won all 3 rounds but I was not surprised at all. I was sitting in a room of people who all thought nam was getting the win but I said watch garcia get it. It is unreal, he is 2-1-1 in his last 4 fights and he should have lost them all. And they even tried to give him the win against hominick.

[stefan084]

is it true that these judges are former boxing judges?

[lasker]

. Sorry to those that bet on Nam but this came as little surprise to me. Nam should have went for the kill when he had the chance. He played it extremely cautious in the 3rd and it cost him. Horrible decision, but it was pretty much on point with any Garcia fight lol. And no, the UFC has nothing, NOTHING to do with the judging. The conspiracy theories are getting kind of old and played out.

The UFC has nothing to do with the judging. This does not mean that all conspiracy theories are bogus, only the ones blaming the UFC or Dana White directly. Conspiracy theories regarding individual judges and/or the athletic commissions cannot be as easily dismissed, especially given that state athletic commissions and judges have a history of shady behavior in boxing.

Regarding the fight itself, I can't blame Nam Phan for anything. He did what he needed to do to win the fight, the incompetency or corruption going on here notwithstanding. He was cautious in the third and should have every right to be. Garcia needed to go for the finish. You don't see basketball teams ahead by 25 points in the 4th quarter feeling like they need to take risks and play even more offensively, hoping to extend their lead substantially for fear of losing if they don't. I still maintain that Nam Phan fought an excellent fight and won every round, and I don't blame him for being cautious when a guy like Garcia swings for the fences and sometimes it only takes one shot to turn the tables.

[Kaladarus]

The UFC makes money off bad decisions. They do so much for expanding the sport and making it more money, but when they need to invest something to get better judging they don't. It's all a bunch of lies Dana White and Joe Rogan say all day. The UFC has the money and if they want change in the judging they can get it done. Why don't they? They make more money off bad decisions, especially when they say the decision was bad. Controversy makes them money and gets more people into the sport. The more money they make, the more money Dana White can spend on his ongoing love affair with Tito Ortiz.

[Kaladarus]

$250,000 cash for Tito win or lose. Tito cashes in.

[rocky mattioli]

[quote=The UFC makes money off bad decisions. They do so much for expanding the sport and making it more money, but when they need to invest something to get better judging they don't. It's all a bunch of lies Dana White and Joe Rogan say all day. The UFC has the money and if they want change in the judging they can get it done. Why don't they? They make more money off bad decisions, especially when they say the decision was bad. Controversy makes them money and gets more people into the sport. The more money they make, the more money Dana White can spend on his ongoing love affair with Tito Ortiz. [/quote]

lol....

i misquoted peoples...it was "leg kicks don`t finish fights"....obviously wrong...they actually have finished and decided some high level fights... ...it`s an utterly insane comment coming from an mma judge...and completely ridiculous from someone judging mma fighting at the ufc level....

imo,dana has the power...it`s a question of motivation.....does he want to take on the state commissions when they try and foist obviously inept boxing judges on his promotions?...or does he just take the fans and the fighters for granted?....

obviously it`s the path of least resistance... the latter...

until fans stop making excuses for the carnival barker/piece of dog squeeze running the show,this kind of ineptititude will become endemic in the ufc(to me it seems it already has)...

strikeforce put on one helluva show tonight...bellator has a new cable t.v. deal for next year...heres hoping that these promotions can actually compete with the ufc at some point...

these poor decisions are becoming to commonplace..and the ufc`s judging issues are becoming much like a faulty toilet....the turds keep floating back to the top when the flush doesn`t complete....

at some point,the toilet has to be fixed.....

[Poppa Catfish]

UFC judging issues? Are you unaware that Bellator and Strikeforce have the same pool of judges.

[Flexin]

The UFC makes money off bad decisions. They do so much for expanding the sport and making it more money, but when they need to invest something to get better judging they don't. It's all a bunch of lies Dana White and Joe Rogan say all day. The UFC has the money and if they want change in the judging they can get it done. Why don't they? They make more money off bad decisions, especially when they say the decision was bad. Controversy makes them money and gets more people into the sport. The more money they make, the more money Dana White can spend on his ongoing love affair with Tito Ortiz.

What are you talking about?

What is it that you want Dana to do with the money to fix the problem? Whats the solution?

As far as bad decisions go, they do not help the sport or Dana. Too many bad decisions turns people away from the sport.

James

[RaiderNation MMA]

im worried these poor judges might just be fight fixing, i mean they dont even make it discrete anymore

[Vaughany]

What are you talking about?

What is it that you want Dana to do with the money to fix the problem? Whats the solution?

As far as bad decisions go, they do not help the sport or Dana. Too many bad decisions turns people away from the sport.

James

I cant rule out the possibility that the actual judges might be corrupt, but I agree James, saying that Dana wants bad decisions is just crazy! It would of been a lot more profitable for Dana if Shogun had of beaten Machida the first time for instance. Also, Nam Phan is coming off TUF which is viewed by millions, surely he'd of wanted Nam to win against Garcia if anything. And why would Dana have any interest in making it so that Nik Lentz beat Tyson Griffin?

[Poppa Catfish]

I cant rule out the possibility that the actual judges might be corrupt, but I agree James, saying that Dana wants bad decisions is just crazy! It would of been a lot more profitable for Dana if Shogun had of beaten Machida the first time for instance. Also, Nam Phan is coming off TUF which is viewed by millions, surely he'd of wanted Nam to win against Garcia if anything. And why would Dana have any interest in making it so that Nik Lentz beat Tyson Griffin?

Or Keith Jardine winning a split over poster boy Chuck Liddell who was on the rebound looking to start another title hunt , and the list goes on and on and on and on

[Vaughany]

Or Keith Jardine winning a split over poster boy Chuck Liddell who was on the rebound looking to start another title hunt , and the list goes on and on and on and on

ha yeah that is probably the best example! Chuck is Dana's homeboi and like u say was the poster boy so is ridiculous to say that Dana fixes decision!

[rocky mattioli]

UFC judging issues? Are you unaware that Bellator and Strikeforce have the same pool of judges.

why is there a continuing loop of derangement/denial regarding the ufc?... i like the ufc...that`s why i want to see the ship righted...

i don`t get to watch much bellator...but the one i did catch on a stream was the disgraceful toby imada/pat curran decision...
and if i recall,many were howling about huerta losing to curran...

the ufc is very high profile....we just had a big show with yet another ridiculous decision...that`s why we`re discussing it...

it`s a real problem that needs to be addressed in mma ..unless everyone thinks who wins or loses is a peripheral matter.. ....then the whole thing becomes a glorified exhibition.....

well,maybe the mma media is finally starting to get involved...

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/12/5/1855739/nam-phans-decision-loss-should-spark-call-for-commission

it`s about time...

good luck to you...

[Poppa Catfish]

What denial? There are terrible decisions in all the United States based MMA organizations, because they all use the same 10 point scoring system and the same pool of crappy incompetent judges. My comment is just a response to you championing Bellator and Strikeforce in response to poor decisions occurring in the UFC.

They all have the same system, and thus all have the same potential for brutally scored fights. Bellator and Strikeforce becoming big will not make any kind of difference in the scoring system.

Even if they do change the scoring system, you got to realize that there are really atrocious judging being seen in Sengoku, who has a completely different method of scoring fights. Opinions differ wildly when it comes to fights, just poll people and you will get several different accounts of the fight. The truth is that no matter what the system or how knowledgeable the judge there still will be great variance in decisions.

Doesn't mean we should give in to incompetence, some of these judges really have to go, but it does mean that there never is going to be the perfect situation for scoring imo