Confirmed: Clemens Was A Steroid User

**jjgold** · 10-01-06, 05:20 PM

I know guys that have saw his ass and tons of needle marks in them.

Sick

**moses millsap** · 10-01-06, 05:23 PM

This was obvious from last year's report where he and Damon got named and then was quietly brushed aside. That 50 game suspension angle makes all the more sense now.

**jjgold** · 10-01-06, 05:34 PM

All his records mean nothing now

Maddux nows moves up as the greatest pitcher thas has ever played the game.

**McBa1n** · 10-01-06, 10:01 PM

It's not shocking at all - the guy acts with the effects of 'roid rage' all the time.
The Piazza bat episode was when it was crystal clear.
Roid heads do crap like that all the time.
Hehe, they go 'Romanowski'

**pags11** · 10-02-06, 02:50 AM

I'm just surprised it took this long for alligations to surface...

**jjgold** · 10-02-06, 05:59 AM

I am glad he is going out a laughing stock and not a legend anymore. He has always been a piece of shit to kids and fans in general.

Roger no Hall for you

**isetcap** · 10-02-06, 08:15 AM

Confirmed??? LMAO, what a media culture this is! Put it accross the wire it's The Word of God.

Newsflash: In all cases, The Word of God may not actually be reality.

**Willie Bee** · 10-02-06, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by jjgold

...no one over 35 can throw that hard without putting the needle in your ass.

So Nolan Ryan was using performance enhancers the last 12 years or so of his career, huh? Walter Johnson? Must've been on steroids when he had back-to-back 20-win seasons at ages 36 and 37 and was still throwing in the 90s by all accounts. Ditto for Bob Gibson.

**pags11** · 10-02-06, 03:42 PM

there are obviously freaks of nature, but guys like Clemmens and Bonds that have sustained such high performance for so long definitely have to make you scratch your head...

**tacomax** · 10-02-06, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by pags11

there are obviously freaks of nature, but guys like Clemmens and Bonds that have sustained such high performance for so long definitely have to make you scratch your head...

Looks like jjgold-esque logic is sweeping the boards.

**dave11486** · 10-02-06, 09:25 PM

I would lean towards Clemens being guilty. The man has a steroid build.

**pags11** · 10-03-06, 04:29 AM

tacomax,

these are my own thoughts...I have a solid background in baseball and it's not sport you can continue to excel at well into your late thirties...I'm just saying the allegations could be true...

**TexansFan** · 10-03-06, 05:19 AM

Sounds like you have something personal against Clemons jjgold. Already the gov't has come out and stated that there are serious mistakes with the names on that list. The only player who has admitted he has taken steroids is Bonds. Of course his lying ass stated he thought it was flaxseed oil. Yea, right.

The truth is that all baseball players of this era are going to be associated with using steroids. They can look no further than their own union and baseball itself for denying the problem in the 90's.

The FACT is there is no proof that Clemens or Pettite ever used steroids. Does that mean they never used them? No, it just means that you can't go by what you read in a newspaper. Clemens is without a doubt a first ballot hall of famer...

**jjgold** · 10-03-06, 06:02 AM

Its physcially impossible to do what Clemens is doing in the majors now.

It has been documented after age 35 your skills diminish, he has gotten better

??

Roger and Barry have the same personalities.."Its all about me and the money"

He will never pitch again now and hide from the game because he knows he is guilty

**McBa1n** · 10-03-06, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by Willie Bee

So Nolan Ryan was using performance enhancers the last 12 years or so of his career, huh? Walter Johnson? Must've been on steroids when he had back-to-back 20-win seasons at ages 36 and 37 and was still throwing in the 90s by all accounts. Ditto for Bob Gibson.

You're barking up the WRONG tree.
Watch mechanics of HOW the pitchers you mentioned pitch vs. Clemens.

The "HOF" fireballers pitch with their legs almost exclusively - Clemens hasn't ever. Ryan is probably the model motion of a hard-throwing fastballer (he's ALL legs - as all over-arm fastballers are, which is why they can pitch into their 40s - and that motion is NOT taught anymore, really at the Little League level - I mean, if you understand mechanics). Clemens throws with a LOT less leg power.

Your stats are crap against modern players...
With all due respect, use your head and watch how they do it - you can draw your own conclusions then - or you can just watch sportscenter and not pay attention... That's up to you.

Anyone can SEE when a pitcher goes from a stud, to a tosser to a stud again...
How many pitchers have gone from 'serviceable' to stud in their 40s?
When you find that one, that isn't Clemens, let me know, really. Ryan was never that close to a stud over his career - he was TOO inconsistent... Even though his dominating days were DOMINATING.
Again - Clemens' pitching motion is not about his legs.. It never has been.

Do the math. Guys like Johnson and Ryan were nasty for a simple reason - and you just have to watch HOW they do it. Their motion is not about their arm... Derrr. Legs hold up, over time, a LOT better than arms do. History shows this time/time/time/time/time and again.

But if you think Roger is the man, LMK where you're hiding your head in the sand... You clearly aren't watching WHY.
It goes beyond numbers... What Clemens (and that cheater Bonds) are doing are not only mathematical anomolies, they're virtually impossible statistically.
They're actually so far off anomolies that they can't even be considered. I GUESS THEY JUST RULE BECAUSE THEY HAVNT TESTED POSITIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Use your freakin head.

**jjgold** · 10-03-06, 07:55 AM

age 36 and 37 are a big difference fom age 42-43, actually a huge difference in pro baseball

**McBa1n** · 10-03-06, 08:09 AM

yeah, jj, 1 is about to hang them up and the other hung them up.

Guys that played later than that understand mechanics real well (seaver, niekro, ryan, paige, walter johnson, blah blah).

Both Bonds' and Clemens' numbers are INCOMPARABLE relative to their age with over a century of stats to back it up.
I wonder why...

**Willie Bee** · 10-03-06, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by McBa1n

you can draw your own conclusions then

I did draw my own conclusions, and I posted those conclusions. I've watched Clemens pitch since he was a high schooler, and he uses his legs just like Ryan did. In fact, it was Ryan who instructed Clemens along the way and really got him on his workout regimen.

Your conclusions obviously differ from mine, but it doesn't mean mine are wrong.

Oh, and I don't bark up trees.

**Willie Bee** · 10-03-06, 09:11 AM

And for those of you who do like to chase wild, unsubstantiated rumors...

The LA Times, in their story that rekindled all of this steroids hubbub last week, included one small line in their report stating that Grimsley has told friends and others that quotes attributed to him by federal investigators were not true.

This story elaborates on that...

Arizona Republic Link

Grimsley did not name Clemens, others
Former D-Backs pitcher's attorney refutes steroids report

Joseph A. Reaves
The Arizona Republic
Oct. 2, 2006

Former Diamondbacks pitcher Jason Grimsley told federal agents questioning him about illicit drugs in baseball last spring that “never in a million years” would star pitchers Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte use steroids, human growth hormone or any other illegal performance enhancers, Grimsley's attorney said Monday.

“Jason told them (the federal agents) he had no knowledge of Clemens and Pettitte using any illegal drugs and told them that never in a million years would either of them use,” attorney Ed Novak told The Arizona Republic.

Novak said the agents, not Grimsley, brought up Clemens and Pettitte and that recent published reports were incorrect claiming Grimsley also identified former Baltimore Orioles teammates Brain Roberts and Jay Gibbons as players who “took anabolic steroids.”

An affidavit filed in federal court in Phoenix last May by Jeff Novitzky, a special agent for the Internal Revenue Service, claimed Grimsley identified a series of major league players and a personal trainer whom he knew used illegal performance-enhancing drugs.

The names of those players and trainer were blacked when the affidavit was made public and never have been confirmed on the record by anyone who has seen it. However, the Los Angeles Times reported last weekend it was allowed to see an unedited copy of the affidavit provided by an anonymous source who refused to allow the newspaper to keep the 22-page document.

According to the Times, Grimsley identified Clemens, Pettitte, Roberts, Gibbons and Baltimore shortstop Miguel Tejada as players who used illegal performance-enhancing drugs. Former Baltimore first baseman David Segui had said earlier his name was mentioned in the affidavit.

“As to all five players named, Jason did not attribute steroid use to any of them,” said Novak, vice president of the Arizona State Bar and head of the white collar crime group of the prestigious law firm Quarles & Brady Streich Lang.

“There was no mention of Roberts or Gibbons at all. The agents didn't even mention Roberts or Gibbons.”

Late Monday, shortly after Novak denied Grimsley implicated Clemens, Pettitte, Roberts or Gibbons, the federal prosecutor overseeing the investigation of illicit drugs in baseball issued an unusual statement that also cast doubt on the story.

“In view of recent news reports purporting to identify certain athletes whose names had been redacted from the government's search warrant filings in the Grimsley matter, and in the interests of justice, please be advised that these reports contain significant inaccuracies,” said Kevin Ryan, U.S. Attorney in San Francisco.

Besides the five players, the Los Angeles Times also reported that former Yankees trainer Brian McNamee, now personal trainer to Clemens and Pettitte, hooked Grimsley up with a source who helped him obtain amphetamines, anabolic steroids and human growth hormone (HGH).

Grimsley was questioned by agents who were waiting April19 when the pitcher received an illegal shipment of HGH at his Scottsdale home. Novitzky's sworn affidavit says Grimsley, who still hasn't been charged with any crime, originally agreed to cooperate with investigators but stopped a week later after hiring an attorney.

“This affidavit was written nearly two months after the event, based on the memory of the agent,” Novak said, noting the affidavit was filed May31. “The FBI purposely does not record interviews because it does not want the public to know its interviewing process.”

**isetcap** · 10-03-06, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by Willie Bee

The LA Times, in their story that rekindled all of this steroids hubbub last week, included one small line in their report stating that Grimsley has told friends and others that quotes attributed to him by federal investigators were not true.

But Willie, it's already been "confirmed", you treebarker!

**Willie Bee** · 10-03-06, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by isetcap

But Willie, it's already been "confirmed", you treebarker!

Yeah, guess you caught me on that one, cap. I should've noted that I don't bark up trees during normal business hours. But on occasion when I've been home from work for a couple of hours and have a martini or three in me, I have been known to howl at the moon.

**McBa1n** · 10-03-06, 09:36 AM

Hey - you see what you see.
I agree to disagree, WillieB (word).
I've watched Clemens only in the majors since '85.
His motion doesn't rely on his legs anywhere near his elders IMO. His arm is not quite 3/4 (a total arm pitcher motion) - but it ain't far.

I studied technique when I thought I could pitch when I was younger (I can't even pitch to T-ballers I stunk so bad...:P - funny how scrubs like me study technique so hard). Ryan and Clemens are apples/oranges to me - they pitch VERY differently.
But that's what I see.
If you see something else, then that's what you see.
However, the statistical anomolies are pretty bad...
Sorry, I was being a bit of a hard-headed dick and disrespectful - but I do believe you are being somewhat naive just based on math... But you see what you see. If it's your eyes watching and not your heart, that is.

I still believe that Clemens juiced and have for a long time, just based on seeing what juice does to people mentally and their general reactions to the smallest things. It's funny how he became a 'dickhead' long after being an arrogant asshole (which was fine, to me, as a fan of his).

Also, his fastball/splitter lost 5-7 MPH then SUDDENLY came back about 5-6 yrs ago about... Mechanics? Ask Maddux or Glavine... Who can't hit 90 with a stiff wind at their back.. And they are both 'leg'/perfect technique "pitchers".... But not power pitchers like say - Ryan.

The statistics speak for themselves... They're impossible at his age... By almost 6-7 years. He's the greatest pitcher in the history of the world, otherwise - just like bonds is the greatest hitter, who has done things that guys 5+ years younger havn't even come close to touching EVER.
He's gotta be clean!
Both act like roid-ragers and both are going into the hall.
It disgusts me.... Baseball used to be about everything that's right.
I hope it gets back there - it is a great game with a mountain of shame to rid itself of.
Clemens = guilty, though.
Stats, really, make it easy to see.

**Willie Bee** · 10-03-06, 10:24 AM

McBa1n, it wouldn't surprise me if 80% or more, hell, all of them, used steroids or some other enhancer at some point over the last 10, 15, 20 years or so. I'm not really bothered that players used them as much as I'm bothered by how long it took the owners, players, media and fans to get it corrected.

We have testing now, and while it should be even more stringent in my opinion, at least it's a start. But I see no point in getting into all of this maybe he did it, maybe that guy did it, too debate. Do we go back and investigate everyone from the era Senator Jim Bunning played for possibly using ampethamines and discount the stats from the 50s, 60s and 70s?

Like you said, we will agree to disagree with Clemens' technique and leg usage versus others like Ryan. Clemens was a hothead on the mound in high school and college as well, who knows?, maybe he was 'using' way back then.

**moses millsap** · 10-03-06, 02:43 PM

Looks like the report was completely wrong. Grimsley said no way in hell Clemens or Petitte would use steroids.

**isetcap** · 10-03-06, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by OWNED

Looks like the report was completely wrong. Grimsley said no way in hell Clemens or Petitte would use steroids.

Oh! So now we know for sure that neither of these guys ever used steroids. It's been CONFIRMED!!!

**pags11** · 10-04-06, 04:46 AM

mcBa1n,

excellent post...I have to agree...