[bigcash]

Bigcash, my 4% figure comes from what was stated by another writer above. If the figure is 2.3%/2.8% then things could be adjusted slightly. But even your lower end 2.3% figure is going to result in an expected loss for Pinnacle if people just deposit and take out cash.

Slightly? We live in different worlds then. I see huge difference between 4% and 2,3/2,8%. Whenever you use unproved someone's figures it sounds unreliable and unprofessional to talk about figures pinnacle makes and expense.

Pinnacle is not in trouble because of deposits and withdrawals. Problem must be searched outside of this issue.

There are bookies which suffers much more from deposits by higher fees and still offers free withdrawals with perfect service.

Let me know how you calculate then pinnacle profit. that 0,7-1,4%. You cannot be serious that pinnacle are always able to cover each side on each match with their nice juice. Neither when game comes to in-play.

[dealer wins]

From Pinnacle's website, slagging off Bet Victor for having a 4x rollover on a bonus, when they have a 5x rollover on a deposit LOL Pinnacle FAIL!!!

"Continuing on from our previous article – Why Free Bets come at a Cost – where we discussed free bet terms and conditions, this time we’ve actually investigated free bets from various bookmakers to learn exactly how they work – including their drawbacks.

One bookmaker – we’ll call them Regret Victor – has a £25 Free Bet offer for new accounts. Upon closer inspection of the offer, it is then revealed in the T’s & C’s that you have to place a bet with your own cash that must contain at least one selection with odds of at least 2.00, unless it is a four-fold or greater. They will then match this bet with ‘promo cash’ up to £25.
Essentially, the bookmaker is telling you what to bet on with your own money before it will give you anything. And at 2.00 or greater, it’s a punt with a chance of winning under 50%.
Drawbacks:

▶Free Bets usually require you to match the bookmaker’s investment with your own
▶ Bookmakers steer you into less profitable or losing markets
▶ To make a withdrawal you need to make ever more bets

Having fulfilled that condition, you are only able to withdraw any winnings from the promo cash once you have staked at least four times the value of your initial bonus amount and these bets are fully settled.

So even with the £25 in promo cash you would need to place a further bet of up to at least £100 of your own money before you could make any withdrawals."

[sbavi]

Slightly? We live in different worlds then. I see huge difference between 4% and 2,3/2,8%. Whenever you use unproved someone's figures it sounds unreliable and unprofessional to talk about figures pinnacle makes and expense.

Pinnacle is not in trouble because of deposits and withdrawals. Problem must be searched outside of this issue.

May i know how you arrived at the 2.3% fee?As from what i see on Skrill's merchant page,i see that the lowest fee for non European merchants is 2.9%.

In addition to this,they have also listed the "Sending money fee" for merchants as 1%.So,the fee for Pinnacle for a single in and out transaction is either 2.9% or 2.9+1 = 3.9% depending on whether Skrill charges them 1% to process withdrawls.

[sbavi]

Hi There!

Please let me know how you got 4% for deposit/withdrawal. Lets prove it. I like pinnacle much but I can prove you it is 2,3% fee - one of the lowest in the industry for deposit via Neteller and 2,8% for deposit via Skrill.
There is no cost for processing withdrawal according to my source.

Thanks for your clarification.

5 times roll over is unreasonable.

Hello,may i see the proof that Pinnacle's Skrill fee is 2.3%?I was thinking that their fee to receive funds is 2.9% and for processing withdrawls is 1% which adds up to 3.9%.

Also,Skrill has listed on their site that merchants can apply for individual pricing.Do you think Pinnacle is on their individual pricing list?

[vook]

Is Pinnacle new in the industry? The fees of skrill/neteller were always the same.

[bigcash]

Hello,may i see the proof that Pinnacle's Skrill fee is 2.3%?I was thinking that their fee to receive funds is 2.9% and for processing withdrawls is 1% which adds up to 3.9%.

Also,Skrill has listed on their site that merchants can apply for individual pricing.Do you think Pinnacle is on their individual pricing list?

Hi mate!

I see you are asking same question in two posts. I hope reply to one is more than sufficient for you.

It is obvious you are noobie in this industry and have no any sense for this business. Any affiliate for e-wallet can calculate this percentage which bookie pays what %.

Whenever you see official statement in Skrill site it never means that this is applied to their entire merchant list same with affiliate if you see there is only 20% revenue share it does not mean that you are not able to get higher. Or you can compare non VIP customer of Skrill with VIP customers of Skrill and you will see that once your account reaches higher deposit volume you can get more benefits. It is same with merchants. More payments they process better conditions they will negotiate.

Bigger business merchants do more advantages they will get and Pinnacle is one of the lowest paying fees in sports book industry.

TBO I have no records about any bookmaker which is paying lesser deposit fees than Pinnacle.

Small businesses for example have to pay fees above 4 and almost 5% in some cases it is higher until they start operate with bigger volumes - only when their results are good enough their fees will be negotiable to lower charge.

Percentage of fees which bookmakers pay depend on many factors and one of them is transaction volume they process.

Whenever its number goes very high like Pinnacle they are on good way to renegotiate these fees. What's more there is no withdrawal fee for transacting withdrawal for merchant like Pinnaclesports. - There is only deposit fees.

If you are business account with Skrill you will have to pay 1% send out money but it does not mean that all merchants or business accounts have the same conditions. What’s more the percentage of what merchants pays for receiving funds depends on country they operate from.

So there is no way you can argue with me that pinnacle has fee of 2,8% for deposit via Skrill and 2,3% fees for Neteller.

Instead of above Pinnacle used to email about exact cost - percentage they have to pay when using one or another payment method.

We are also happy to pay the 2.8% fees associated with Moneybookers deposits for our clients.

[Hareeba!]

Why I am annoyed and will not deposit is that I dont ever want "wagering requirements"

Some of my Pinnacle deposits get rolled over 30-50 times, some bust out, and occasionally I need to withdraw immediately after depositing due to a big win.

I just cant risk depositing £10K, hitting a £30K win and not being able to withdraw at least £20K of that immediately.

You can withdraw your winnings without attracting the 3% deposit fee.

[frog2]

Slightly? We live in different worlds then. I see huge difference between 4% and 2,3/2,8%. Whenever you use unproved someone's figures it sounds unreliable and unprofessional to talk about figures pinnacle makes and expense.

Pinnacle is not in trouble because of deposits and withdrawals. Problem must be searched outside of this issue.

There are bookies which suffers much more from deposits by higher fees and still offers free withdrawals with perfect service.

Let me know how you calculate then pinnacle profit. that 0,7-1,4%. You cannot be serious that pinnacle are always able to cover each side on each match with their nice juice. Neither when game comes to in-play.

Of course there is a difference between 2.3% and 4% but the main point is maintained. If a player deposits then withdraws cash by only turning over the money X times the bookmaker expects to lose money on that client. What X is is relevant to the rollover needed for breakeven but irrelevant to the principal of expecting free withdrawls. These costs have to be paid for some how.

......

You say Pinnacle are not in trouble because this. Maybe they are, maybe they are not. My main concern with them is who owns it. But running a business where a small subset of customers are costing you money on transaction fees is unfair on your other clients if you have to make up that money elsewhere. The reason for the change makes sense. Of course it could just be stop people taking money out because they need the cash for operating a sinking ship. But if that was the case why not slow pay everyone? Why make the excuse that 5% of their clients continuously deposit and remove money?

You state other companies offer a perfect service with free withdrawls. Which discount bookmaker does this exactly?

You have the 'UK' recreational online firms that make an 8% gross win so of course they can absorb the costs. They do this by worse odds and culling sharps.

You have Betfair than have a gross hold of around 1.1% of total matched. This is risk free. To get this figure they had to introduce the Premium Charge. Great outfit for traders but not so good for gamblers once you reach £250k profits.

SBObet has greats margins for Asians on football but for things like correct scores they are amoungst the worst in the business.

IBCbet uses agents so I am not sure on their costs of deposits.

Name one bookmaker that offers low juice on all markets, high limits, no other charges whatsoever and has been in business for over a decade?

.....

The net win figure is a difficult on to estimate. I was using it to illustrate that it is very low for Pinnacle. Lower that expected profit, for instance, if a punter deposits, places one bet and then takes the money out.

Of course the bookie doesn't get a perfectly balanced book. I don't see where I ever wrote that. I am talking about expected profit over a large number of samples. My estimate of their margin was based on their overrounds (102-103%) and the fact that they allow sharps.

The only comparisons I have for this is are:
1. The 0.67% hold (after agency fees?) quoted for IBCbet who offer similar overrounds.

2. The 4% gross win for top oncourse bookies in the UK last decade (Before Betfair prices took over). This was a market where sharps operated. The expected margin looking at the first three in the market would be around 8-9%.

Thus the impression I get is that Pinnacle is probably making a gross margin of 0.7%-1.4% of turnover. This is between half and a quarter of their overround. Its a big spread. What is your estimate?

[bigcash]

Of course there is a difference between 2.3% and 4% but the main point is maintained. If a player deposits then withdraws cash by only turning over the money X times the bookmaker expects to lose money on that client. What X is is relevant to the rollover needed for breakeven but irrelevant to the principal of expecting free withdrawls. These costs have to be paid for some how.

......

You say Pinnacle are not in trouble because this. Maybe they are, maybe they are not. My main concern with them is who owns it. But running a business where a small subset of customers are costing you money on transaction fees is unfair on your other clients if you have to make up that money elsewhere. The reason for the change makes sense. Of course it could just be stop people taking money out because they need the cash for operating a sinking ship. But if that was the case why not slow pay everyone? Why make the excuse that 5% of their clients continuously deposit and remove money?

You state other companies offer a perfect service with free withdrawls. Which discount bookmaker does this exactly?

You have the 'UK' recreational online firms that make an 8% gross win so of course they can absorb the costs. They do this by worse odds and culling sharps.

You have Betfair than have a gross hold of around 1.1% of total matched. This is risk free. To get this figure they had to introduce the Premium Charge. Great outfit for traders but not so good for gamblers once you reach £250k profits.

SBObet has greats margins for Asians on football but for things like correct scores they are amoungst the worst in the business.

IBCbet uses agents so I am not sure on their costs of deposits.

Name one bookmaker that offers low juice on all markets, high limits, no other charges whatsoever and has been in business for over a decade?

.....

The net win figure is a difficult on to estimate. I was using it to illustrate that it is very low for Pinnacle. Lower that expected profit, for instance, if a punter deposits, places one bet and then takes the money out.

Of course the bookie doesn't get a perfectly balanced book. I don't see where I ever wrote that. I am talking about expected profit over a large number of samples. My estimate of their margin was based on their overrounds (102-103%) and the fact that they allow sharps.

The only comparisons I have for this is are:
1. The 0.67% hold (after agency fees?) quoted for IBCbet who offer similar overrounds.

2. The 4% gross win for top oncourse bookies in the UK last decade (Before Betfair prices took over). This was a market where sharps operated. The expected margin looking at the first three in the market would be around 8-9%.

Thus the impression I get is that Pinnacle is probably making a gross margin of 0.7%-1.4% of turnover. This is between half and a quarter of their overround. Its a big spread. What is your estimate?

What a time wasting. Whenever you though about 4% and go with idea of making 0,75%-1,4% of turnover.

I am on pinnacle side as they offer one of the best service online however I really doubt that 5% of their customers ruin their business. Problem must be somewhere else.

There is Sbobet, 188bet, ibcbet which are paying equal via Skrill much more via Neteller deposits excluding ibcbet - it cost you nothing depositing/withdrawing via Neteller and there is deposit and withdrawal fee via Skrill - which obviously no huge audience will deposit with. These asians offer as good service as pinnacle does. It is not true that pinnacle offers better price for correct scores. Pinnacle has advantage however in American sports offer. Which in the future I believe sbobet will equalize.

I will have still opinion that bookamkers like pinnacle sbo 188bet ibcbet have many outside income coming from illegal activity - it is difficult to predict how much they make on betting it might be one month 30% of volume and might be lose of same or higher.

Imposing 5 times rollover upon all customer is unfair and therefore I believe pinnacle has different problems than with in and out customers.
Simply they could introduce this rule only to their 5% abusing customers while rest 95% would not be touched.

[frog2]

Weird reply bigcash. What net margin do you think they are making then? I am struggling to see where you are going from with this.

The other companies that you say offer the same service simply do not.

EPL today. First match 1X2 markets:

SBO

WBA	3.15
Spurs	2.29
draw	3.35

105.3%

	188bet
WBA	3.15
Spurs	2.28
draw	3.5
	1.041771

	ibc
WBA	3.1
Spurs	2.3
draw	3.42
	1.049761

	pinnacle
WBA	3.24
Spurs	2.31
draw	3.6
	1.01932

[bigcash]

Weird reply bigcash. What net margin do you think they are making then? I am struggling to see where you are going from with this.

The other companies that you say offer the same service simply do not.

EPL today. First match 1X2 markets:

SBO

WBA	3.15
Spurs	2.29
draw	3.35

105.3%

	188bet
WBA	3.15
Spurs	2.28
draw	3.5
	1.041771

	ibc
WBA	3.1
Spurs	2.3
draw	3.42
	1.049761

	pinnacle
WBA	3.24
Spurs	2.31
draw	3.6
	1.01932

Weird is your post where you mentioned correct scores and now you copy 1x2 market. Lol. Much weirder that you was talking about 4% on processing expenses.

You can always bet on asian handicaps to avoid bad price with Asians.

[frog2]

Looking at correct scores pinnacle do:

	Pinnacle	SBObet	188bet
1100 W.B.A 0, Tottenham Hotspur 0	11.11	11	11
1101 W.B.A 0, Tottenham Hotspur 1	10.12	8	9
1102 W.B.A 0, Tottenham Hotspur 2	12.13	11.5	12
1103 W.B.A 0, Tottenham Hotspur 3	24.97	25	22
1110 W.B.A 1, Tottenham Hotspur 0	11.24	10.5	11
1111 W.B.A 1, Tottenham Hotspur 1	6.95	6	6.8
1112 W.B.A 1, Tottenham Hotspur 2	9.7	8	10
1113 W.B.A 1, Tottenham Hotspur 3	18.18	17.5	18
1120 W.B.A 2, Tottenham Hotspur 0	18.85	19.5	16.5
1121 W.B.A 2, Tottenham Hotspur 1	11.64	11	12
1122 W.B.A 2, Tottenham Hotspur 2	14.42	13	13
1123 W.B.A 2, Tottenham Hotspur 3	29.69	25	29
1131 W.B.A 3, Tottenham Hotspur 1	30.6	32	27
1132 W.B.A 3, Tottenham Hotspur 2	37.53	36	36
	1.003578	1.105055	1.044492

[frog2]

Processing costs I was using a figure quoted by someone else. You are now saying these are 2.3% to 2.8%. Fine. I stand corrected on that. Still cannot you not see even at your figures Pinnacle will struggle to make a profit from customers who continously deposit and then take money out without rolling over?

[bigcash]

Looking at correct scores pinnacle do:

	Pinnacle	SBObet	188bet
1100 W.B.A 0, Tottenham Hotspur 0	11.11	11	11
1101 W.B.A 0, Tottenham Hotspur 1	10.12	8	9
1102 W.B.A 0, Tottenham Hotspur 2	12.13	11.5	12
1103 W.B.A 0, Tottenham Hotspur 3	24.97	25	22
1110 W.B.A 1, Tottenham Hotspur 0	11.24	10.5	11
1111 W.B.A 1, Tottenham Hotspur 1	6.95	6	6.8
1112 W.B.A 1, Tottenham Hotspur 2	9.7	8	10
1113 W.B.A 1, Tottenham Hotspur 3	18.18	17.5	18
1120 W.B.A 2, Tottenham Hotspur 0	18.85	19.5	16.5
1121 W.B.A 2, Tottenham Hotspur 1	11.64	11	12
1122 W.B.A 2, Tottenham Hotspur 2	14.42	13	13
1123 W.B.A 2, Tottenham Hotspur 3	29.69	25	29
1131 W.B.A 3, Tottenham Hotspur 1	30.6	32	27
1132 W.B.A 3, Tottenham Hotspur 2	37.53	36	36
	1.003578	1.105055	1.044492

Does anyone sees huge differences in these prices or it is just you?

[bigcash]

Processing costs I was using a figure quoted by someone else. You are now saying these are 2.3% to 2.8%. Fine. I stand corrected on that. Still cannot you not see even at your figures Pinnacle will struggle to make a profit from customers who continously deposit and then take money out without rolling over?

using quoted by someone else sounds professional and give me picture you understand topic extremely well.

I stand opinion to exclude 5% bad business customers and let 95% withdraw anytime they need it.
But I dont really believe it is about that 5% of bad customers.

[frog2]

Does anyone sees huge differences in these prices or it is just you?

Er. Are you serious? Pinnacle have 100.3% for those scores, SBObet are 110.5%. 188bet (not sure you could call them a probook anyway) are 104.4%. Massive difference across the different firms.

[Optional]

using quoted by someone else sounds professional and give me picture you understand topic extremely well.

He seems to understand that SBO and 188 do not offer the same service pinnacle does as you claimed.

Your post in the other thread claiming 'big rollers' will make more profit because of the 5x rollover needed, along with the SBO claim, kind of suggest it's you that might not understand BC

[bigcash]

He seems to understand that SBO and 188 do not offer the same service pinnacle does as you claimed.

Your post in the other thread claiming 'big rollers' will make more profit because of the 5x rollover needed, along with the SBO claim, kind of suggest it's you that might not understand BC

It is nice you and he understands pinnacle and me not.
I congratulate you! I wrote that pinnacle will have more winners when introducing 5 times rollover on every customers mainly huge rollers will win in pinnacle much more. That what I knows from my experience because I withdraw only when I need my turnovers reaches 1,5-2m within a day or two so I have quite nice picture at least for my personal use.

All compliment to you Optional you rock.

[bigcash]

yea let's cover each outcome on correct scores... I would be curious what is volumes on this market. I see no reason to be indignant here.

[frog2]

Volumes on correct scores and 1X2 markets are higher in Europe than Asian hcaps. SBObet seems to have majority access from SE-Asia but how many of those customers use agents who can leave large deposits and charge their customers or work in cash? 188bet appears to have UK as its highest customer base so the higher margin markets are likely to be more used.

Pinnacle appear to have a different strategy in that they price every market to a low percentage using the correct scores as a starting point. There is no reason for a bookie to have increased juice for essentially the same bet. A win bet for one team is just dutching all the correct scores for that team winning.

SBObet and 188bet increase the juice for the extra outcomes. If a player wants those outcomes he pays more. You may argue the sort of punter that needs the five time rollover only bets Asians anyway. I am not convinced.

But surely you can see that on your lowest 2.3% deposit figure a bookie offering 2-3% books for all their markets (with no higher juice markets to boost margins) is going to struggle if their customers deposit and withdraw for every bet??

You suggest Pinnacle close the accounts of five percentage of their customers, I suggested a points system for longer term rollovers, Pinnacle themselves introduced this five times thing.

[bigcash]

Volumes on correct scores and 1X2 markets are higher in Europe than Asian hcaps. SBObet seems to have majority access from SE-Asia but how many of those customers use agents who can leave large deposits and charge their customers or work in cash? 188bet appears to have UK as its highest customer base so the higher margin markets are likely to be more used.

Pinnacle appear to have a different strategy in that they price every market to a low percentage using the correct scores as a starting point. There is no reason for a bookie to have increased juice for essentially the same bet. A win bet for one team is just dutching all the correct scores for that team winning.

SBObet and 188bet increase the juice for the extra outcomes. If a player wants those outcomes he pays more. You may argue the sort of punter that needs the five time rollover only bets Asians anyway. I am not convinced.

But surely you can see that on your lowest 2.3% deposit figure a bookie offering 2-3% books for all their markets (with no higher juice markets to boost margins) is going to struggle if their customers deposit and withdraw for every bet??

You suggest Pinnacle close the accounts of five percentage of their customers, I suggested a points system for longer term rollovers, Pinnacle themselves introduced this five times thing.

Whatever. Everyone please push on pinnacle to change rule 30. Let me know guys when pinnacle change their mind. Until then it is useless deposit straight. Just use service of brokers like asianconnect88 - that's my only recommendation and hope that asianconnect88 has enough cash to pay us out all whenever we request that.

[allin1]

Simply they could introduce this rule only to their 5% abusing customers while rest 95% would not be touched.

if the 95% were already rolling over their deposits on a regular basis what is the point of your idea? they won't even notice the rule 30. The only question is if that 5% is an accurate number.

[allin1]

Volumes on correct scores and 1X2 markets are higher in Europe than Asian hcaps.

Guy from pinnacle said in the q&a session that they get much much more volume on asian hcaps than on 1x2

[bigcash]

if the 95% were already rolling over their deposits on a regular basis what is the point of your idea? they won't even notice the rule 30. The only question is if that 5% is an accurate number.

Maybe if you read more of my post you would not ask here. 5% of customers is unreal in my opinion and I really doubt it from very beginning.

Point is that I feel unsafe with pinnacle in these days when I know they might have financial and pay out difficulties.

Hope they will resolve soon.

[frog2]

Guy from pinnacle said in the q&a session that they get much much more volume on asian hcaps than on 1x2

I don't doubt it is with Pinnacle. BigCash was talking about other bookies who operate from a different situation. SBObet sponsored WestHam and 188bet got involved with ManCity. Pinnacle does none of this therefore is far more likely to be lower margin.

BigCash just says 'whatever' to my key question.....

But surely you can see that on your lowest 2.3% deposit figure a bookie offering 2-3% books for all their markets (with no higher juice markets to boost margins) is going to struggle if their customers deposit and withdraw for every bet??

This is a problem I think they face. He thinks it is best solved by going with Dr.M.J. Hugenholtzweg's license that is plastered over a number of operations in the NA. I am not so sure. The whole offshore thing is based on trust. Pinnacle have been around a long time so currently I trust them although it would be nice to know who owns them and who the head trader is etc.

[lecubs28]

what's the minimum odds of the bet to count for the rollover requirement? if i bet something at -10,000 does my risk amount count towards the rollover?

[Hareeba!]

what's the minimum odds of the bet to count for the rollover requirement? if i bet something at -10,000 does my risk amount count towards the rollover?

No minimum at Pinnacle.

[dance1959]

Hareeba does it mean that if i deposit 1000 and win 3000,i can withdraw 2000 without 3%. And i need to rollover 4 more times 1000 i left at my acc. If this is case,then it is ok.

[Hareeba!]

Hareeba does it mean that if i deposit 1000 and win 3000,i can withdraw 2000 without 3%. And i need to rollover 4 more times 1000 i left at my acc. If this is case,then it is ok.

The withdrawal of what you win is free of the 3% charge in my understanding.
But I don't believe you're correct in regard to the remaining rollover requirement. That's not dependent on your balance but on how much you've wagered.
You still need to have wagered a total of $5,000 since your deposit before you can withdraw any more the way I understand it.
But what still has yet to be explained is how lost bets are treated in the required turnover equation.

[PassTheDutchie]

Not sure why license is brought up, but they are in the process of getting licensed in a major European market. Don't expect the license to be an issue after that (if it is an issue now).

I have heard pinnacle did just fine last year financially, so this has nothing to do with them being in trouble. This has everything to do with management fine tuning their business model.

Pinnacle attracts a lot of arbitrage action, people that arbitrage move around money from book to book.

5% of their customers might be responsible for 20% of their transactions because of the arbing.

Pinnacle has been trying to expand in the Asian market ever since they left the usa market. I would see their low margins as a way to get a bigger market share in Asia. I have heard it is working although it's not yet at the same level as IBC or SBO.

[bigcash]

I don't doubt it is with Pinnacle. BigCash was talking about other bookies who operate from a different situation. SBObet sponsored WestHam and 188bet got involved with ManCity. Pinnacle does none of this therefore is far more likely to be lower margin.

BigCash just says 'whatever' to my key question.....

But surely you can see that on your lowest 2.3% deposit figure a bookie offering 2-3% books for all their markets (with no higher juice markets to boost margins) is going to struggle if their customers deposit and withdraw for every bet??

This is a problem I think they face. He thinks it is best solved by going with Dr.M.J. Hugenholtzweg's license that is plastered over a number of operations in the NA. I am not so sure. The whole offshore thing is based on trust. Pinnacle have been around a long time so currently I trust them although it would be nice to know who owns them and who the head trader is etc.

Congratulation Mastermind.... I told whatever to you because it is wasting of my time anytime you was in dream that pinnacle has 4% expenses on processing fees. Cheers GL hopefully you'll stop misleading guys who reading these posts...

You of course best know how bookmaker's business works you have my full respect!

And my trusted friend we are in no position to give suggestion what pinnacle should do. I really dont know who make up story about 5% ruining business customers. Whole scam information.

I will be happy play again once I feel pinnacle does not have any financial problems.

So I dont have to read CS emails from pinnacle how they try to delay my request for withdrawal while at the same time it was noticed that CS staff really does not understand their own condition for rollover.

Hopefully this all will be resolver in due course.

[jjgold]

Not sure why license is brought up, but they are in the process of getting licensed in a major European market. Don't expect the license to be an issue after that (if it is an issue now).

I have heard pinnacle did just fine last year financially, so this has nothing to do with them being in trouble. This has everything to do with management fine tuning their business model.


Pinnacle attracts a lot of arbitrage action, people that arbitrage move around money from book to book.

5% of their customers might be responsible for 20% of their transactions because of the arbing.

Pinnacle has been trying to expand in the Asian market ever since they left the usa market. I would see their low margins as a way to get a bigger market share in Asia. I have heard it is working although it's not yet at the same level as IBC or SBO.

Best post of the thread so far...Pinny still best book in the world and nothing close

Also arbing easy to turn over money

[frog2]

Congratulation Mastermind.... I told whatever to you because it is wasting of my time anytime you was in dream that pinnacle has 4% expenses on processing fees. Cheers GL hopefully you'll stop misleading guys who reading these posts...

You of course best know how bookmaker's business works you have my full respect!

And my trusted friend we are in no position to give suggestion what pinnacle should do. I really dont know who make up story about 5% ruining business customers. Whole scam information.

I will be happy play again once I feel pinnacle does not have any financial problems.

So I dont have to read CS emails from pinnacle how they try to delay my request for withdrawal while at the same time it was noticed that CS staff really does not understand their own condition for rollover.

Hopefully this all will be resolver in due course.

I am agree 'BigCash' it is a waste of time commenting on anything you write. You seize on one element. 4% that may in fact be 2.8% or 2.3%. So what? It does not change the fact that they lose you money on people who just deposit and take money out after one or two rollovers. You refuse to comment on this. One 'error' in my post and you reckon you can write off everything else. All your misrepresentations you ignore.

The fact is no bookie that offers low margin across all markets can be happy if people deposit and withdraw cash if they pay 2.3% on deposits. Surely you can see this?

You are completely clueless on the margin the different bookmakers make over different markets. Completely clueless.

[bigcash]

I am agree 'BigCash' it is a waste of time commenting on anything you write. You seize on one element. 4% that may in fact be 2.8% or 2.3%. So what? It does not change the fact that they lose you money on people who just deposit and take money out after one or two rollovers. You refuse to comment on this. One 'error' in my post and you reckon you can write off everything else. All your misrepresentations you ignore.

The fact is no bookie that offers low margin across all markets can be happy if people deposit and withdraw cash if they pay 2.3% on deposits. Surely you can see this?

You are completely clueless on the margin the different bookmakers make over different markets. Completely clueless.

Of course you and me know best how bookies works. Surely you are correct!

[frog2]

Of course you and me know best how bookies works. Surely you are correct!

One final attempt....

If a bookie has an average overround of 2.5% (an expected gross margin much less because of the sharps) surely you can see that someone who deposits cash at 2.3% cost to the bookie (your cheapest figure), the bookie will lose money if punters do not rollover??

Can you seriously not see this?