[Brooklyn Dick]

What high limits. Early tennis a dime. Match time today 2500. Maybe this is high to some, but not me. Golf match ups a dime.

[sbrhedge]

Like any good business, theyll monitor it and see if its good for all and does whats intended.

Please describe in detail what you mean when you say "does whats intended".

I also want to know the results of your meeting with Pinnacle yesterday. Many on this thread are waiting for this information - thank you.

[ChewFu]

Just withdrawn $20k. Hadn't rolled the deposit 5 times, but did deposit before the rule change. Paid within 3 minutes. So looks like they're not trying it on retrospectively any more.

[Bill Dozer]

Just withdrawn $20k. Hadn't rolled the deposit 5 times, but did deposit before the rule change. Paid within 3 minutes. So looks like they're not trying it on retrospectively any more.

It is not to be applied before April 1.

[ChewFu]

Bill, I'm aware of that, but I was providing confirmation that one of the initial issues is no longer an issue.

Now for the results of the meeting and an answer to sbrhedge's questions...?

[allin1]

Until someone comes out with reduced juice and limits the way pinnacle does, this is the only option for people looking for that.

matchbook on major markets

[Hareeba!]

Think of it as a 3% deposit fee to play reduced juice. If you complete the 5 time rollover they give you your deposit fee back. If you don't your still welcome to pull your money at anytime. Until someone comes out with reduced juice and limits the way pinnacle does, this is the only option for people looking for that. I've paid deposit fees 100 times at a ton of different books, be it them or the method in which I am sending either way this is just another deposit fee with a chance of getting it back. Your money is never tied in like a bonus where you have zero option to pull until the rollover is done, here you can still pull whenever you want.

No thanks.
I don't pay deposit or withdrawal fees anywhere.
I want to be able to withdraw ALL my funds at any time.

[dirtdog52658]

matchbook on major markets

I bet Live, Props, Qtrs and Halves that matchbook does not have. For game action I was already using them.

[Hareeba!]

I and others have made quite a bit of noise about this issue whilst Pinnacle appears to be making contradictory statements about the application of their deposit fee.

Questions have been raised and not clearly answered. Maybe this isn't as bad as some of us believe it to be? But until the example of how the OP's treatment is clarified/rectified by Pinnacle it remains an issue of great concern and a PR disaster for them.

Real1992, do you have any update for us?

SBR, can you get Pinnacle to put out a statement with examples to clarify how lost bets affect the rollover requirement?
It seems the CS girls don't fully understand it based on email responses.

[lecubs28]

from checking twitter, it definitely seems like this is a PR disaster for pinny.

it's fair if they want to say they were losing money before april 1st when they had just a one time rollover requirement. but to change to 5x requirement, and not say anything, like nobody would notice? that is ASININE.

i think what we're going to see is pinnacle is going to revoke this obviously ludicrous policy, and implement something more reasonable. maybe a 2 or 2.5x rollover requirement, which seems more fair. that way, say you deposit 2k to make a bet

bet 2k and win
balance is 4k, bet 2k more of that
good to make your withdrawal

but 5k is obviously ridiculous and if they try to stick with this it is going to hurt their profits

[real1992]

I and others have made quite a bit of noise about this issue whilst Pinnacle appears to be making contradictory statements about the application of their deposit fee.

Questions have been raised and not clearly answered. Maybe this isn't as bad as some of us believe it to be? But until the example of how the OP's treatment is clarified/rectified by Pinnacle it remains an issue of great concern and a PR disaster for them.

Real1992, do you have any update for us?

SBR, can you get Pinnacle to put out a statement with examples to clarify how lost bets affect the rollover requirement?
It seems the CS girls don't fully understand it based on email responses.

I m just makeing the rollover and i'm done with them. Different answers by different advisors.... Can't go on and loseing my time with them anymore.

[real1992]

from checking twitter, it definitely seems like this is a PR disaster for pinny.

it's fair if they want to say they were losing money before april 1st when they had just a one time rollover requirement. but to change to 5x requirement, and not say anything, like nobody would notice? that is ASININE.

i think what we're going to see is pinnacle is going to revoke this obviously ludicrous policy, and implement something more reasonable. maybe a 2 or 2.5x rollover requirement, which seems more fair. that way, say you deposit 2k to make a bet

bet 2k and win
balance is 4k, bet 2k more of that
good to make your withdrawal

but 5k is obviously ridiculous and if they try to stick with this it is going to hurt their profits

At least 1 free withdrawal every month for the customers that do not create troubles. This is the minimum they can do. But it looks like they are becomeing greedy. I am going to repeat it again. Pinnacle maybe thinks that in this way will create bigger turnovers (drinking free juice)but they are going to lose some serious bussines. A friend mine that bets over 2 millions every month at pinny switched to SBO and Matchbook.

[allin1]

A friend mine that bets over 2 millions every month at pinny switched to SBO and Matchbook.

Why? Because of rule 30?

[frog2]

If I deposit $10k with a bookmaker and then withdraw the $10k how much does the bookmaker have to pay the payment processor? Anyone got actual figures on this?

[Hareeba!]

If I deposit $10k with a bookmaker and then withdraw the $10k how much does the bookmaker have to pay the payment processor? Anyone got actual figures on this?

depends entirely on your means of depositing / withdrawing

[dealer wins]

I have looked at my profit/loss on Pinn over the last 10 years and 5 moths. I am down £495K

And yet they are forcing me to leave them.

You know what, penetrate em, I wouldnt deposit again if they waived their withdrawal policy. Matchbook will do me just fine, and after trying them out today I am hooked!!!

[Hareeba!]

I have looked at my profit/loss on Pinn over the last 10 years and 5 moths. I am down £495K

And yet they are forcing me to leave them.

You know what, penetrate em, I wouldnt deposit again if they waived their withdrawal policy. Matchbook will do me just fine, and after trying them out today I am hooked!!!

If you're such a regular loser the deposit fee shouldn't trouble you as you'd rarely be in any position to be making withdrawals.

Other than the nuisances/arbers who deposit - withdraw - deposit - withdraw - deposit - withdraw this is mainly going to hit winning punters who play and manage their balances in a sensible fashion.

[sbavi]

If I deposit $10k with a bookmaker and then withdraw the $10k how much does the bookmaker have to pay the payment processor? Anyone got actual figures on this?

I use Skrill and if i made a 10k$ deposit,Pinnacle would get about 9709.5$ and when processing the withdrawl of 10k they'll need to send 10,100$.

So they receive 300$ less and have to send 100$ extra for a 10,000$ in and out transaction.

[Hareeba!]

Just occurred to me that the prime abusers are the arbers which Pinnacle has been actively encouraging with articles saying they welcome arbers and giving advice on how to do it! Even promoting those articles on Twitter!

Now they have dealt them a severe blow below the belt with this charge and at the same time upset hordes of real punters such as myself.

[real1992]

Just occurred to me that the prime abusers are the arbers which Pinnacle has been actively encouraging with articles saying they welcome arbers and giving advice on how to do it! Even promoting those articles on Twitter!

Now they have dealt them a severe blow below the belt with this charge and at the same time upset hordes of real punters such as myself.

dont mess arbers with abusers,at least at pinny.... big arbers create turnovers that even 1000 regular players cant do in a month...

[Bill Dozer]

dont mess arbers with abusers,at least at pinny.... big arbers create turnovers that even 1000 regular players cant do in a month...

Right. Most scalpers/traders/arbers aren't going to care about the rule either. They dont want to mess around with deposits when they see a nice price. Its the guy looking at Oddschecker's 100 books who never keeps a balance anywhere and always pulls his chunk back after the bet so he has it ready to deposit somewhere else in case his next hit isn't at Pinnacle. He may be an arber too but arbers aren't inherently bad for biz.

[frog2]

So a round trip of a deposit/withdraw is around 4%. Their overrounds are around 2-3% so their actual profit margin is probably 0.75%-1.4% (when you take into account the sharps) and you guys object to having to turn your money over 5 times to get a 'free' withdraw.

They have a negative profit expectation on the money you deposit unless you bet it several times. Even at 5 times they probably only expect to break even. Under the old system if more and more people start moving money on a daily basis the transaction costs will exceed their betting margin.

They either have to charge for withdrawing money, insist on a rollover (to give them a fair chance of breaking even), increase their margins (worse odds for everyone) or close the business.

[JoeyBagels]

I hope pinnacle removes the "arber" friendly claim from their site because they are clearly not now. Also disingenuous to find out about such a significant change to their payment policy through a forum thread and then a twitter PR release instead of an announcement to their customers list via e-mail. This whole thing reeks IMO and I'll be switching books. Every book can claim to be the biggest, the safest and "the best" until the day they go down. There's no regulatory body worth a damn governing these books and their business operations. I have no proof that they will close but neither does anyone claiming they are safe. Punter BEWARE IMO.

[dealer wins]

Why I am annoyed and will not deposit is that I dont ever want "wagering requirements"

Some of my Pinnacle deposits get rolled over 30-50 times, some bust out, and occasionally I need to withdraw immediately after depositing due to a big win.

I just cant risk depositing £10K, hitting a £30K win and not being able to withdraw at least £20K of that immediately.

[allin1]

Its the guy looking at Oddschecker's 100 books who never keeps a balance anywhere and always pulls his chunk back after the bet so he has it ready to deposit somewhere else in case his next hit isn't at Pinnacle.

That sounds like the description of a somewhat sharp bettor who will always shop for the best price but has a small bankroll and has to withdraw all the time. I think even pinnacle encouraged bettors in their articles to shop for the best price.

Now they are basically trying to either force out the bettors that need to constantly withdraw, or convince them to "be loyal" to pinnaclesports even if that means betting at worse odds than available elsewhere.

I can understand the need to do this though, if it's about the commissions they pay to third parties involved in deposits and withdrawals. I just hope this is the actual reason for this new policy, and not something else.

[jjgold]

This does not affect arbors because the money is rolled over very very quickly

Hey if you're a big better you'll pay the early withdrawal fee

[allin1]

So a round trip of a deposit/withdraw is around 4%. Their overrounds are around 2-3% so their actual profit margin is probably 0.75%-1.4% (when you take into account the sharps) and you guys object to having to turn your money over 5 times to get a 'free' withdraw.

They have a negative profit expectation on the money you deposit unless you bet it several times. Even at 5 times they probably only expect to break even. Under the old system if more and more people start moving money on a daily basis the transaction costs will exceed their betting margin.

They either have to charge for withdrawing money, insist on a rollover (to give them a fair chance of breaking even), increase their margins (worse odds for everyone) or close the business.

probably the best post on the issue if the numbers are right

[Optional]

If they didn't absorb Skrill's fees on deposits, so they appear free to the player, there would be a lot more pressure on the money transfer services to sharpen their pens.

Not that I'm suggesting fees on deposits. But there is a catch22 there that helps to keep the fees high.

[dance1959]

What is their fee for sending money out. It shouldnt be more than euro. As skrill vip your outgoing fees are limited to 1e.

[dirtdog52658]

Why I am annoyed and will not deposit is that I dont ever want "wagering requirements"

Some of my Pinnacle deposits get rolled over 30-50 times, some bust out, and occasionally I need to withdraw immediately after depositing due to a big win.

I just cant risk depositing £10K, hitting a £30K win and not being able to withdraw at least £20K of that immediately.

They have said that you can pull the winnings without having to pay the 3%. If you put 10k in and hit 30k, then 30k is able to be pulled you just have to leave the 10k in to complete the rollover.

[frog2]

The only other solution I would suggest would be a points based system on your longer term action rather than deposit to deposit.

[dirtdog52658]

The only other solution I would suggest would be a points based system on your longer term action rather than deposit to deposit.

Great Idea.

Going to try and work it out.

[dirtdog52658]

The only other solution I would suggest would be a points based system on your longer term action rather than deposit to deposit.

Ok let me know if there are any holes in this.

Per Dollar Deposited -1Pt
Per Dollar Wagered +1Pt
Per Dollar Paid Out -4Pts

-Rule 30 only applies if payout will send customers point balance into the negative.
-Negative Pt Balances Reset to Zero when Accounts Balance hits Zero.
-Positive Point Balances Never Reset

For the long term players who sometimes rollover their deposit 30-40 times they will be able to build point balances and if they choose to pull after a 1 time rollover on a future deposit will still be able to do so.

For the guys who lose right off the bat your point balance will reset to zero and on your next deposit your dealing with the same terms you are now.

For the guy who hits the lucky parlay or future. 100/50000. Rule 30 states you have to roll the depo 5 times so if it was 100 bucks its only 500 in action. The payout of the 50000 will send you into a negative point balance but if you completed the rollover your fine anyways. Before depositing again make sure to zero account so pt balance zeros as well.


Keeps the longterm guys happy, and should only affect those who are in and out on a constant basis.

[bigcash]

So a round trip of a deposit/withdraw is around 4%. Their overrounds are around 2-3% so their actual profit margin is probably 0.75%-1.4% (when you take into account the sharps) and you guys object to having to turn your money over 5 times to get a 'free' withdraw.

They have a negative profit expectation on the money you deposit unless you bet it several times. Even at 5 times they probably only expect to break even. Under the old system if more and more people start moving money on a daily basis the transaction costs will exceed their betting margin.

They either have to charge for withdrawing money, insist on a rollover (to give them a fair chance of breaking even), increase their margins (worse odds for everyone) or close the business.

Hi There!

Please let me know how you got 4% for deposit/withdrawal. Lets prove it. I like pinnacle much but I can prove you it is 2,3% fee - one of the lowest in the industry for deposit via Neteller and 2,8% for deposit via Skrill.
There is no cost for processing withdrawal according to my source.

Thanks for your clarification.

5 times roll over is unreasonable.

[frog2]

Sounds reasonable dirtdog52658. The only issue I suppose is the complexity. Betfair started its decline when the charging structure got too complex. Having said the structure you suggest is not particularly complex if that is the end of. Betfair added layer upon layer of charges that caused it to reach a situation where even their own employees struggle to explain it.

Bigcash, my 4% figure comes from what was stated by another writer above. If the figure is 2.3%/2.8% then things could be adjusted slightly. But even your lower end 2.3% figure is going to result in an expected loss for Pinnacle if people just deposit and take out cash.