[zabula11]

Edit: View SBR Response.

The poster's full, unaltered complaint is below:
______________


Hi guys,

I am new here and I want your advice and also I want to tell you how it really goes in 5 dimes.
We all know their bonus casino is kinda "pearl" in industry offering some games with over 100% payout rate.
But what will really happen when you start to play it?
There is my story... Started there months ago as I found it here on 5 Dimes that their deuces wild is FULL PAY, meaning cca 0.75% players edge. After months I found much more profitable games there and my balance went to 14 500 USD.
Today I asked withdrawal of 5 000 and only thing that happened is that their manager Tony told me, that I used a robot and so my balance is set to zero. How easy is not to pay customers then just tell them they are using robot... Tony of course did not give me any evidence of using robot but only because he probably doesnt like people who hit few royal flushes in a day, then it must be robot... And probably all professional players will tell me, that it is not that difficult to play around 1000-1500 hands a day which gives you fair chances of catching even few royal flushes a day... (or loosing a lot of course....) For those who think, that playing over 1000 hands an hour perfectly is not possible for human, just try 5 dimes casino (or better not as you will not see your money anymore). But some variances of their video poker games pays just royal flush and second highest hand. So you totally dont care about any flushes, straights, full houses etc.. hands that takes your thinking time as you must concentrace if you have 3 to straight, if to draw two cards or deal brand new hand etc.. on this machine where is only royal flush as win and second best, for example royal flush with jocker, you basicly draw most of hands as new hands or holds 2 to royal flush etc.. which is very easy and even monkey can hold 2 to royal flush and discard all other.. there is not robot needed at all because it is possible for just slightly trained human to discard 700 hands and draw to 300 as there is 2 to royal flush or more..
As this is my first post here, I dont know how to upload image, but I have them all.. There is for example my welcome screent that shows:

Sportsbook Wagering Suspended

Sportsbook wagering has been suspended. Please contact customer service for more information.


or if I go to daily figure, I see this nice adjustment:

BETTING ADJUSTMENT TOTAL : -14,500.24

or in transactions history I have this:
800121835/9/11 10:10am-$14,500.24-$993.75robot player, reset to zero
So guys, how do you like 5dimes? I am not even angry because this just seems to me so unbeleiveable that I probably still dont beleive they took my 14 500 USD out of me saying that I used robot ... What will be next? All your graded wagers voided because you are fortune teller?...

[justonetime]

Another bot saga to begin?

[jesuseatsnubs]

In my opinion 5dimes is overrated as **** ! they are not even licensed and there website just looks skeptical over all .

but hey .. that's just my opinion .

I would with a book like BetJamaica any day over 5dimes.

I hope you get your money back .. if not .. FILE A COMPLAINT WITH SBR and get there RATINGS DOWN !

[Santo]

Here we go again..

Let's start with

a) Were you using a bot? Yes, it may not have meant you won faster or anything, but did you use one?
b) If no, what was your rate of play (how many hands per minute/hour)?

[zabula11]

I hope so, but I am new here so I dont know how to post official complaint.. I wrote "Lou" as I received some automatic message from him when I registered here. So I think he is some main authority here.
I dont really think I will get my money back because owner and general manager in one person Tony is totally arogant to me. He is like some master of world seizing your money whenever he wants..

[zabula11]

Here we go again..

Let's start with

a) Were you using a bot? Yes, it may not have meant you won faster or anything, but did you use one?
b) If no, what was your rate of play (how many hands per minute/hour)?

a) surely I did not
b) I wrote it in my post I think.. I played about 1200 hands a hand in average, playing around 14-18 hours a day which gives around 20 000 hnads a day (sometimes I had day of when it was some national holiday etc, but mostly not.. I am not much sociable person so sitting home is my life :/ )
So around 20 000 hands was my target every day. Once I reached it, I felt into bed. Very tiring but if it can earn you like 5 000 USD per month, you can even survive such strict day schedule... Maybe in US you wouldnt bother do such super boring thing but here 5 000 usd per month for 16 hours of sitting behind computer is very good... some people have similarly long work shifts and earns like 500 - 1000 USD per monht here in this country... so would you do it for 5x average salary? I think so...

[senseionline]

cory ghost???

[Santo]

20000 hands a day divided by let's say 16 hours is 1428/hr, 23 hands a minute, or roughly 2.52 seconds a hand, for 16 hours...

At the 18 hour end, it's 3.24 seconds a hand for 18 hours.

Not to pass comment, but certainly can see why they'd think it was bot play (this is a faster rate, for longer, than the Cory case).

Yes I see the financial motivation, and it's much the same as people who play games like WoW for an income, but 3 seconds a hand is always going to raise suspicions - all the more so if there's no pattern of breaks etc.

[WVU]

5 dimes needs to have proof, their software is blazing fast, in case you didn't know

[shari91]

Hi zabula -

Here is the link to the Sportsbook Complaint Form if you'd like SBR to look into your situation:

http://www.sportsbookreview.com/Spor...Complaint.aspx

[WVU]

A bot doesn't speed up the play as far as dealing faster cards. The actual hand decisions do not take much time at all. The speed of delivery of the cards determines the play speed.

[Santo]

5 Dimes rule:

All Internet wagers must be placed through the user interface provided by 5Dimes Sportsbook & Casino on its Web pages. Any Internet wagering through other means, including the use of a "robot" player, is strictly forbidden. In the event that use of non-approved client software is detected, Management reserves the right to invalidate all such wagers retroactively, cancel the player's account, or take any other appropriate action.

So again, it's going to come down to whether they can prove he did use a robot.

[Santo]

5 dimes needs to have proof, their software is blazing fast, in case you didn't know

Agree, was just trying to get the facts out there to save some time.

[Jerm3462]

Here we go again.

[chilidog]

5 Dimes rule:

All Internet wagers must be placed through the user interface provided by 5Dimes Sportsbook & Casino on its Web pages. Any Internet wagering through other means, including the use of a "robot" player, is strictly forbidden. In the event that use of non-approved client software is detected, Management reserves the right to invalidate all such wagers retroactively, cancel the player's account, or take any other appropriate action.

Huge gaping loophole in that statement. The bots that I am familiar with do place their wagers through the user interface. They pretty much move the mouse to the given location on the screen, key in the wager, and submit it. That's typically why you can't use your computer while running any gaming-related bots.

[TRone]

Can't access 5dimes right now. I guess they closed up shop after taking the 14500.

[zabula11]

20000 hands a day divided by let's say 16 hours is 1428/hr, 23 hands a minute, or roughly 2.52 seconds a hand, for 16 hours...

At the 18 hour end, it's 3.24 seconds a hand for 18 hours.

Not to pass comment, but certainly can see why they'd think it was bot play (this is a faster rate, for longer, than the Cory case).

Yes I see the financial motivation, and it's much the same as people who play games like WoW for an income, but 3 seconds a hand is always going to raise suspicions - all the more so if there's no pattern of breaks etc.

Surely it sounds like MUCH, but average time on hand was around 3 seconds I think. I dont know about Cory, only little bit as I just saw it quickly in some post that he had simillar problem. I dont know game he played. But it probably was not version of video poker I played.
Like I told it is machine where only royal flush pays and also 4 deuces. nothing else. And there is auto hold on deuces. So you click "DEAL" it gives you hand. if there is any deuce, it is auto holded so you just click "DRAW" and hand is over. How long does it take? One second as that software is really fast. It just shows cards, bam-bam-bam-bam... no long delays if you have good internet that I have. And if you get hand where is two or more to royal flush, you click on them to hold it and that is it. Also nothing difficult. If your eye is trained like mine is after hundereds of thousands hands I played, you just now in 0.1second what to hold or what to draw... And also edge of this machine was over per cents. It is not like full pay deuces wild where your edge is only 0.75% and one misplayed hand in 100 hands can just wind your edge away. Here your edge is so brutal and play is so easy that I really did not care much if I played that perfect because it is simple, fast and who cares if gets really full payout or from times to times makes mistake as I did... Thing is that payout was like 12.5% to my favour... sounds crazy? yes.. but it is true...

[WVU]

12.5% does sound crazy. Are you sure about that?

[soxwin1917]

Uh oh, I wonder if that expert from the EZStreet case is still around?

[zabula11]

only proof that TONY gave me that I had to use robot is that I played 20 000 hands a day... but I think that is just because I hit few roayal flushes last days so my account rocketed from 7 000 to 15 000 in a week.. I also had terrible down swings during my play when I went from 7000 almost to zero, really, one time I had on my account like few hundereds.. but then It again came up and so on.. math is strong and you must beleive in it. Unfortunatelly TONY doesnt play by the rules and if he doesnt want to pay, he wont pay... I only dont understand that SBR rating on 5dimes.. If SBRs rating on 5 dimes had reflect true situation (and very poor situation), i wouldnt never deposit a cent into that hell book even if their casino would promise un seen revenues...

5 Dimes rule:



So again, it's going to come down to whether they can prove he did use a robot.

[Jerm3462]

This is going to get ugly.

5Dimes is a A+ SBR sponsored book, unlike EZstreet.

Wonder if SBR delivers a similar verdict.

[zabula11]

if I wouldnt be sure about that, I wouldnt be playing that... I know it is crazy.. And because I posted it here, it is not going to be true any more..., sorry guys
5dimes is down now so tony is probably "doing the math" as he told me on chat... and he probably will change it.

12.5% does sound crazy. Are you sure about that?

[cloudagh]

In before Katstale asks for Tony quotes!

[Santo]

WVU has posted the chat transcript across the street, sounds like 5Dimes used threats of a -ve player list to try and prevent the player complaining to SBR - not sure the player understood the threat though.

[Santo]

Transcript:

Originally Posted by WVU
Please wait for a site operator to respond.
Chat InformationYou are now chatting with 'Rommel'
Rommel: Hello. How may I assist you today?
Hana: Hello Rommel
Rommel: Hello
Hana: I just come here to check my account and I wanted to bet some money on ice hockey
Hana: but I logged, everything seemend normal, opened another window in browser just to check news
Hana: clicked back here into 5 dimes and see what I got:
Hana: Sportsbook Wagering Suspended Sportsbook wagering has been suspended. Please contact customer service for more information.
Rommel: Yes you need to speak with our General Manager regarding the status of your account
Hana: and also on that top menu there is nothing but cashier and account...
Rommel: Allow me a minute to transfer the chat to him
Hana: eh?
Chat InformationPlease wait while I transfer the chat to 'Tony'.
Chat InformationYou are now chatting with 'Tony'
Tony: greetings, I'm the general manager
Hana: hello
Tony: "All Internet wagers must be placed through the user interface provided by 5Dimes Sportsbook & Casino on its Web pages. Any Internet wagering through other means, including the use of a "robot" player, is strictly forbidden. In the event that use of non-approved client software is detected, Management reserves the right to invalidate all such wagers retroactively, cancel the player's account, or take any other appropriate action."
Tony: http://www.5dimes.com/rules.html
Tony: winnings using the robot have been removed
Tony: your balance and pending balance has been reset to zero
Tony: your account is closed
Hana: excuse me
Hana: slower please tony
Hana: I did not even read first paragraph
Tony: that is all that needs to be said
Tony: read it at your leisure
Hana: what is going on?
Tony: you used a robot to play
Tony: that is not permitted at per the user agreement rule listed on the website
Hana: what are you talking about
Hana: what robot?
Hana: you must be crazy
Tony: so all winnings from video poker using this "device" to play 20000 hands a day are invalid
Tony: the account is closed
Hana: just because I won like 5 thousands USD that is usage of ROBOT?
Tony: yes, i designed the games
Tony: i know the pay tables
Tony: robots are not permitted
Hana: Idid no use any robot oh my god
Tony: any other statements i need to know from you before I close this chat?
Hana: you must be crazy
Tony: anything else?
Hana: if you mean this by real I just give you to court
Hana: and send all this to sports book review
Tony: ok, please do
Hana: you play to be best sports book
Hana: but close my account with 14 thousands???
Tony: robot play, its closed
Hana: that is very good joke
Hana: NO ROBOT PLAY
Tony: no its not a joke, send all the details to sportsbook review
Tony: or any other site you wish
Hana: just because I played 20 thousands hands a day that is robot play???
Hana: that is no problem tony
Tony: all casino play is invalid based on the use of a robot engine to play your hands
Hana: speciall version of video poker I play
Tony: not any more, your account is closed
Tony: i look forward to hearing from sportsbook review on this matter
Hana: look
Hana: right before I asked this withdrawal today
Tony: and when i do, we'll be sure to add your name to a "robot player list"
Hana: I won 250 on fruit slot
Tony: which i'll be sure to send around to all other operations
Hana: so how about this for example?
Hana: I also won on ice hockey
Hana: so damn! you are going to take all my money?? just because I played a LOT HANDS?
Tony: your net winnings on video poker using the robot exceeds your available balance
Tony: so any other winnings would not bring you to a positive balance
Hana: that is totally silly
Hana: how can I tell you I did not use any ROBOT???
Hana: and tell me one thing
Hana: why should I use robot?
Tony: if your net winnings using the robot did not exceed this amount, then the positive balance from your other plays would be honored
Hana: send me any evidence
Tony: we both know the payout is above 100% on this game
Hana: yes
Hana: so why do you have that game?
Tony: people who play not using a robot lose
Hana: oh my god
Tony: so when we hear from sportsbook review, your name will go onto a list we share with other operations
Hana: so only because I am smart and know how to play it then I am guilty???
Tony: then sportsbook review will be presented with the evidence
Hana: so send an evidence to me
Hana: you are telling me I was playing 20 000 hands a day
Tony: when they see the play history, they'll conclude its a robot
Tony: and its case closed
Hana: yes, you are right
Tony: so i look forward to contact from sportsbook review, and placing your name in a negative database for robot players
Hana: but it doesnt mean I played it by using robot
Tony: good day to you, there will be no further repsonses
Hana: did you even try that game?
Hana: there is nothing to be thinked about!!!
Hana: just please look at your game
Hana: it is not my fault that you set payout over 100%
Hana: I only found this game and so I played it
Hana: but if you take a look on it you know that there is nothing really difficult to decide about perfect play
Hana: just hold one deuce or hold at least two to royal flush
Hana: trada
Hana: that is all!
Hana: !
Hana: you dont need robot to play that simple game!
Hana: and I did not use any robot at all!!!

[excel]

pay the man.

[WVU]

what was the game called that you were playing Zabula?

[HedgeHog]

Can't wait for the Justin vid on this one!

[Jerm3462]

[KGambler]

12.5% does sound crazy. Are you sure about that?

Everything he says about the game is true (don't know anything about his case specifically). You can only play $0.25 max per spin. According to VP calculators the PLAYER edge is 12.5%. You only get paid on natural royals or 4 dueces. So like he says, the strategy is pretty simple and you are just redrawing all 5 cards much of the time.

I have played this game a bit. I have been afraid to play it too much because so many people have told me about rigged casino software and it just seems a little too foolish for a book to offer such a game. But they probably make a profit on all of the people who find the game and immediately set up a bot to play it !

Even at a max of 25 cents per spin, you should be able to make $30 per hour on average. The supposed edge is that big. Playing 1,000 hands per hour would not be difficult. Playing 16 hours a day is another matter, but should be doable with breaks.

I have always wondered about this game... I get the feeling it will be disappearing from their casino now... I have no idea why it exists in their casino. Bot magnet? Rigged? Gross incompetence on part of their management?

Edit: Forgot to mention... Variance is very high and it is precisely the kind of game where you would have to play a ton of it to ever prove that it is rigged. Again, you only get paid on natural royals (no wilds) and 4 dueces. So the vast majority of the time you have a losing hand. I am not sure what kind of sample size you would need to have to prove the game is rigged or is legit. Any thoughts WVU?

edit 2: said house edge, meant player edge obv

[jesuseatsnubs]

EVERYONE STOP USING 5DIMES .. stop depositing with them and withdraw your money and go to another book !

If they do this to 1 person .. they can do it to ANYONE ELSE .

this is unacceptable ..

[zabula11]

Cant remember exact name now as all site is down now but I think it was:

Royal Jackpot Deuces Wild.
Payout table was:

11 000 coins for royal flush
2 500 for four deuces.
everything else zero

giving 112.74% return



so you see you dont really think hard for playing so simple game where you discard almost all hands. Only when there is 2 or more to royal flush you click and hold it and draw a new hand. When there is deuces, they are already auto hold so you just fires next hand. That is why 20 000 hands is not that big problem as it can sound... and who knows their software, you know it is really fast so delivering cards and giving respone is within one second. Then you have 2 second on thinking ..

what was the game called that you were playing Zabula?

[Santo]

Ok it certainly sounds feasible. Did you take breaks or was it 16-18 non-stop?

[excel]

I thought this was a joke

[zabula11]

That is right.
Variance is killer here. Like I told above, I had losing streak going from 7 000 almost to zero and then back.. But game is not rigged or chated. I played that for few months and payout is really 12.5%... or better say was.. but it was just trap.. even tony on chat told me: "we both know this game is over 100%" then he added "I designed that game"... but he probably did not designed it well as 12.5% is really big edge to player, even thought variance is very very big and you can easily lost few thousands there and not get anything..

Everything he says about the game is true (don't know anything about his case specifically). You can only play $0.25 max per spin. According to VP calculators the house edge is 12.5%. You only get paid on natural royals or 4 dueces. So like he says, the strategy is pretty simple and you are just redrawing all 5 cards much of the time.

I have played this game a bit. I have been afraid to play it too much because so many people have told me about rigged casino software and it just seems a little too foolish for a book to offer such a game. But they probably make a profit on all of the people who find the game and immediately set up a bot to play it !

Even at a max of 25 cents per spin, you should be able to make $30 per hour on average. The supposed edge is that big. Playing 1,000 hands per hour would not be difficult. Playing 16 hours a day is another matter, but should be doable with breaks.

I have always wondered about this game... I get the feeling it will be disappearing from their casino now... I have no idea why it exists in their casino. Bot magnet? Rigged? Gross incompetence on part of their management?

Edit: Forgot to mention... Variance is very high and it is precisely the kind of game where you would have to play a ton of it to ever prove that it is rigged. Again, you only get paid on natural royals (no wilds) and 4 dueces. So the vast majority of the time you have a losing hand. I am not sure what kind of sample size you would need to have to prove the game is rigged or is legit. Any thoughts WVU?