1. #36
    Justin7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hareeba! View Post
    loads of crap gets posted
    the claim was that BF are thieves, stealing from sportsbook accounts
    I don't know or care about how they internally transfer funds and I have no interest in casinos but I don't believe for a moment that they steal from sportsbook accounts
    so where's the evidence that that has happened?
    This happened.

    I have a screenshot proving it. A player received a "casino adjustment" of -745 pounds in his main wallet. These adjustments were made to hundreds of players.

    I'll have a vid up in the next couple days.

  2. #37
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin7 View Post
    This happened.

    I have a screenshot proving it. A player received a "casino adjustment" of -745 pounds in his main wallet. These adjustments were made to hundreds of players.

    I'll have a vid up in the next couple days.
    Offsetting a negative balance on one account against a credit on another of the same player's isn't stealing.

    You may have an issue with how the negative balance occurred on the casino account but that's a different issue.

  3. #38
    lawnmower
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    Eh? I have one account. On Sun 14 Nov I had over 8000 in that account. on 15 Mon the account was locked. on Wed the account was re-opend and the balance was now 4000.

    How is that not stealing?

  4. #39
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawnmower View Post
    Eh? I have one account. On Sun 14 Nov I had over 8000 in that account. on 15 Mon the account was locked. on Wed the account was re-opend and the balance was now 4000.

    How is that not stealing?
    Most unlikely to be stealing if you are referring to Betfair
    What were the transactions which they processed to reduce the balance?

  5. #40
    Landprofits
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hareeba! View Post
    loads of crap gets posted
    the claim was that BF are thieves, stealing from sportsbook accounts
    I don't know or care about how they internally transfer funds and I have no interest in casinos but I don't believe for a moment that they steal from sportsbook accounts
    so where's the evidence that that has happened?
    Believe it or not - it happened. The promotion they offered was obviously a massive error, either by misjudgement or sabotage and it put the advantage firmly with the player on that saturday night.

    The result is - they lost, and lost big. Then they started welching on their bets by locking players accounts down and removing funds. Not just winnings and bonuses, but deposits also.

    It probably sounds like a fairly tale to you because of their huge standing as a company, but the fact remains that the casino is regulated by the LGA and the way they have dealt with this issue is ameteurish and corrupt.

    Where is the evidence that it happened? In this instance I don't think you will struggle to find evidence. There are hundreds of players who have been affected by this, there are numerous screenshots of the original terms and there have been numerous complaints to IBAS. IBAS have generally referred players back to the LGA and seem to be missing the point that in most cases the funds were seized from the exchange balance which falls under UK jurisdiction.
    Last edited by Landprofits; 11-28-10 at 05:17 AM.

  6. #41
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landprofits View Post
    Believe it or not - it happened. The promotion they offered was obviously a massive error, either by misjudgement or sabotage and it put the advantage firmly with the player on that saturday night.

    The result is - they lost, and lost big. Then they started welching on their bets by locking players accounts down and removing funds. Not just winnings and bonuses, but deposits also.

    It probably sounds like a fairly tale to you because of their huge standing as a company, but the fact remains that the casino is regulated by the LGA and the way they have dealt with this issue is ameteurish and corrupt.

    Where is the evidence that it happened? In this instance I don't think you will struggle to find evidence. There are hundreds of players who have been affected by this, there are numerous screenshots of the original terms and there have been numerous complaints to IBAS. IBAS have generally referred players back to the LGA and seem to be missing the point that in most cases the funds were seized from the exchange balance which falls under UK jurisdiction.
    I guess it comes down to perception in the way you look at it.

    Any company, be they a bank, bookie, whatever will offset customer balances. That alone is not stealing.

    Okay, it seems Betfair has created some sort of huge issue with its casino bonus promotion which resulted in negative balances for some players. That is the issue. Not the offsetting. To scare sports betting customers with tales of stealing their balances is totally misleading.

    I didn't get involved in that because I have no time for casino play. But from what I've read on this thread it seems they really did screw up and I'd be somewhat surprised if the authorities and all the fuss and negative publicity doesn't result in them rectifying the problem. Else I can see a class action being brought against them.

  7. #42
    lawnmower
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    But that is the point Hareeba! I would never, ever expect foul play from someone like BetFair. And yet they have.

    So when someone that big and trusted really screws around with lots of peoples accounts - not just one or two, and in a wholly inconsistant way (some cashed out ok, some had money removed, some had thretning demands to pay back what they owe) it is important that every one is ahwhere that it might be them next.

  8. #43
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawnmower View Post
    But that is the point Hareeba! I would never, ever expect foul play from someone like BetFair. And yet they have.

    So when someone that big and trusted really screws around with lots of peoples accounts - not just one or two, and in a wholly inconsistant way (some cashed out ok, some had money removed, some had thretning demands to pay back what they owe) it is important that every one is ahwhere that it might be them next.
    No
    The point is that the post to which I initially responded was that Betfair steals from sportsbook customers.
    I have never condoned what it seems they have done with their casino promotion. That is a separate matter. I know nothing about their casino as I never play them.
    My simple point is that ordinary sportsbook customers have no need to fear anything.

  9. #44
    odysseus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hareeba! View Post
    No
    The point is that the post to which I initially responded was that Betfair steals from sportsbook customers.
    I have never condoned what it seems they have done with their casino promotion. That is a separate matter. I know nothing about their casino as I never play them.
    My simple point is that ordinary sportsbook customers have no need to fear anything.
    The point is that sportsbook or casino, it's still Betfair and they took legitimate money from players sportsbook accounts to offset their losses from their cocked-up casino promotion.
    What's to stop them doing something similar in the future if they decide after the event that one of their sportsbook promotions was too generous/screwed up on T&C etc etc?
    Also to lock sportsbook accounts for days on end when the issue is around a casino problem does not inspire confidence - looks suspiciously like they were making sure players couldn't withdraw sportsbook funds before they could be consficated.

  10. #45
    lawnmower
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    The money that was take WAS in my sports book. Not in the casino.

  11. #46
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawnmower View Post
    The money that was take WAS in my sports book. Not in the casino.
    Irrelevant to my point which is that your problem arose in the casino, not the sportsbook. Sportsbook customers have no reason to be fearful.

    As previously stated any company will offset a customer's negative balance against a positive one.

    You failed to answer my question as to what transaction(s) were processed to your sportsbook account to reduce its balance.

  12. #47
    AimingHigh
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    Even though the problem arose in the casino, so sportsbook-only players have nothing to fear (unless Betfair offers them a crazy promo and then changes its mind after a beating), it would seem that Betfair in particular couldn't treat all of the funds in a player's account as one pool. The casino bit is regulated by the LGA, and the sportsbook bit (for UK players at least) by the Gambling Commission. So it doesn't seem right that Betfair can ignore the jurisdictional divides they've created for tax, etc. purposes when it's convenient for them.

  13. #48
    63890000
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    that sucks i thought they were a good book to play with

  14. #49
    soton50
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    Hareeba, let me make my situation clear to you. Betfair went into my sportsbook account and took out money that had absolutely nothing to do with the promo in the casino. They have since refused to even acknowledge my requests to look at my account, since if they did so, the mistake would be absolutely clear. They ignore all my emails, and have ignored the complaints I have sent to them about ignoring my requests.

  15. #50
    Emanuel83
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    I think my situation is the worst up to date. I withdrawn 32000€ saturday night after the promo. I received them on Tuesday in my bank account, no e-wallet, no paypal stuff, just my bank account where are all my life savings. Guess what, on thursday, 18 November betfair debited 32000€ from my bank account. That was shocking and my family stills trying to forget this. It has been difficult days here for us, Im in very bad psychological situation after this. My comp points earned for long time ago werent returnet (around 2k), my deposit wasnt returned, no replies to my e-maisl. I talkd with my bank account manager and he said this was impossible to ********** 32000€ 2 days after the credit, They are investigating the case and theres a possibility of the bank give me back my 32000€ and solve the case with betfair. Please note that were talking about a Portuguese bank, of course it has more money than betfair, its called "Millenium BCP" owned by some chinese guys with a lot of €...

    Anyway, sad days here, I still try to recover from this. I thought bank account was the safest place to have the money. I was wrong. Betfair went too far with this one but they will have problems. Yes they will. They will pay for this, at least here in Portugal. I have no doubts if prime minister knows about this situations that betfair participation in Portugal is at risk. We have severe laws here. You cant just go and ********** 32000€ as if it was nothing. Were not talking about 100€ or even 500€, were talking about A LOT of money that has been PAID. If they didnt want to pay then why they processed my withdrawal? This is robbery, I feel robbed and Im completly angry about this as you can see. I just want to recover my psychological situation though. Sorry for my bad english, just wanted to share with you my story, it makes me feel better to explain it on forums.

    And I just wish you never have the feeling and excitement of winning 30k and loose them some hours later. Believe me, its really bad...

    Cheers from Portugal.
    Last edited by Emanuel83; 11-29-10 at 08:25 PM.

  16. #51
    BChrisB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emanuel83 View Post
    I think my situation is the worst up to date. I withdrawn 32000 saturday night after the promo. I received them on Tuesday in my bank account, no e-wallet, no paypal stuff, just my bank account where are all my life savings. Guess what, on thursday, 18 November betfair debited 32000 from my bank account. That was shocking and my family stills trying to forget this. It has been difficult days here for us, Im in very bad psychological situation after this. My comp points earned for long time ago werent returnet (around 2k), my deposit wasnt returned, no replies to my e-maisl. I talkd with my bank account manager and he said this was impossible to ********** 32000 2 days after the credit, They are investigating the case and theres a possibility of the bank give me back my 32000 and solve the case with betfair. Please note that were talking about a Portuguese bank, of course it has more money than betfair, its called "Millenium BCP" owned by some chinese guys with a lot of ...

    Anyway, sad days here, I still try to recover from this. I thought bank account was the safest place to have the money. I was wrong. Betfair went too far with this one but they will have problems. Yes they will. They will pay for this, at least here in Portugal. I have no doubts if prime minister knows about this situations that betfair participation in Portugal is at risk. We have severe laws here. You cant just go and ********** 32000 as if it was nothing. Were not talking about 100 or even 500, were talking about A LOT of money that has been PAID. If they didnt want to pay then why they processed my withdrawal? This is robbery, I feel robbed and Im completly angry about this as you can see. I just want to recover my psychological situation though. Sorry for my bad english, just wanted to share with you my story, it makes me feel better to explain it on forums.

    And I just wish you never have the feeling and excitement of winning 30k and loose them some hours later. Believe me, its really bad...

    Cheers from Portugal.
    Are you saying that the funds were deposited and cleared in your bank account or you had a pending deposit????

    There's a big difference because if it was a pending transaction and BetFair pulled, this is one thing. If your saying that the money was absolutely in there and clear and they withdrew that money via wire without your permission, then that's theft and illegal, and for that amount EXTREMELY CRIMINAL.

    Please clarify !

  17. #52
    thirtytwo
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    A book taking 32k from someones bank account? How is this even possible? Emanuel not telling all the details it seems...
    If its any close to truth, however, im really sorry about your situation.

  18. #53
    Santo
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    It's actually not illegal in the UK, you are allowed to reverse a transaction (mistaken credit). It is however illegal in Portugal I believe. This was discussed at length on casinomeister.

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  19. #54
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by soton50 View Post
    Hareeba, let me make my situation clear to you. Betfair went into my sportsbook account and took out money that had absolutely nothing to do with the promo in the casino. They have since refused to even acknowledge my requests to look at my account, since if they did so, the mistake would be absolutely clear. They ignore all my emails, and have ignored the complaints I have sent to them about ignoring my requests.
    did you play the promo at the casino?

    has anyone who didn't suffered this thing?

    my simple point is that only those who did play the promo have experienced this crap and that ordinary sportsbet customers have no need to fear "theft" by Betfair as has been stated in some posts

  20. #55
    Emanuel83
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    Quote Originally Posted by BChrisB View Post
    Are you saying that the funds were deposited and cleared in your bank account or you had a pending deposit????

    There's a big difference because if it was a pending transaction and BetFair pulled, this is one thing. If your saying that the money was absolutely in there and clear and they withdrew that money via wire without your permission, then that's theft and illegal, and for that amount EXTREMELY CRIMINAL.

    Please clarify !
    Yes my friend, the money was available to spend for 2 days (55 hours to be more precise). I could spend it on a car or something, the money was mine! And betfair could debit the amount back and the bank didnt even ask me about this. Were talking about a lot of money. Theyre investigating the case and probably the bank will refund my money and solve the case directly with betfair. I also made complains to media here in Portugal about my bank and betfair. I wont give up of my money. No one in the bank can explain and understand how they could debit 32000 after 2 days, this is illegal. But I will keep you informed about any updates. I will never ever play again with betfair (my account is closed anyway)

  21. #56
    yokspot
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    Is the €32,000 all bonuses / winnings, or does it include any of your deposited funds?

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  22. #57
    Emanuel83
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    It includes my first 300€ depoist plus around 1400€ of comp points plus all my deposits between 21:00 and 00:00 because the money I used to deposited many times was already mine, I won it playing in the casino and I could transfer it to my sportsbook balance.

    edit:
    they basically used my Card number to get the money back, everything without my bank permission. Theyre in trouble, at least with this situation believe me. Its not just a question of casino winnings and payement, it has more problems involved.

    There is the shocker:



    edit: my withdrawal when account was open



    This is my bank website -> http://www.millenniumbcp.pt/
    Last edited by SBR Jonelyn; 01-14-15 at 03:31 PM.

  23. #58
    thirtytwo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emanuel83 View Post
    they basically used my Card number to get the money back, everything without my bank permission. Theyre in trouble, at least with this situation believe me. Its not just a question of casino winnings and payement, it has more problems involved.
    You mean credit card? They used you credit card number to charge money from your card without your permission?
    This is sick.


  24. #59
    Justin7
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    Is this a debit card?

  25. #60
    yokspot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emanuel83 View Post
    It includes my first 300€ depoist plus around 1400€ of comp points plus all my deposits between 21:00 and 00:00 because the money I used to deposited many times was already mine, I won it playing in the casino and I could transfer it to my sportsbook balance.

    I just wanted to clarify that you deposited less than €32,000, so the funds recalled didn't put you out of pocket as per pre-promo levels. As I understand it, you deposited €300, then churned (transfered as opposed to deposited) €200 back and forth, from exchange to casino, racking up 300 / 400 or so bonuses in the process and so generating the final sum of €32,000.

    You could have been a bit more subtle about it.

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  26. #61
    Emanuel83
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    No no no, for you to transfer funds again to sportsbook you had to play 1000. Thats what I did. After completing the wagering requirements I could tranfer the money to sportsbook and thats what I did. The promo was well advertised "unlimited 100 bonus for 3 hours, unlimited deposits"

  27. #62
    yokspot
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    Yuh, I understood that.

    Transfer €200 from exchange to casino, get bonus, wager €1000, transfer funds back from casino to exchange, then transfer €200 again from exchange to casino, next bonus, wager, transfer back, transfer to casino...etc ad inf. Basically, one €300 deposit churned backwards and forwards multiple times, if I've got it right.

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  28. #63
    Teddy_KGB
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    Emanual, you should ask ********** from your bank, because it was a credit card transaction which you did not do. It's horrible what betfair do, I hope many people who withdrew, could empty their bank account / ewallet before betfair tried to stole back the money. How much money did they lose?

  29. #64
    Emanuel83
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    Exactly.

    Teddy_KGB is that possible to do? I didnt know it is possible but I will tell them. Thank you.

  30. #65
    Teddy_KGB
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    Yes, possible, but maybe won't be succesful, if you had many gambling transactions earlier , your bank can say that it was you who deposited this 32K EUR, placed on one bet and lost, and now you want to get back the money ,I don't know exactly how do banks manage these things (I've never had to fight to get back my money fortunatly)..... that's why ask bookies credit card scans, they have much loss by credit card frauders, but in this case, betfair are the frauder.

  31. #66
    noyb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emanuel83 View Post
    I That was shocking and my family stills trying to forget this. It has been difficult days here for us, Im in very bad psychological situation after this. Anyway, sad days here, I still try to recover from this. I just want to recover my psychological situation though.
    wow, you make it sound like you, your wife and your 1 year old baby will be traumatized for life by this.. either you are grossly overexagerating to get some sympathy here, or you really need some serious counselling (and should not be gambling with these kinds of amounts at all)

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  32. #67
    Emanuel83
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    Im not traumatized friend. I just hope you never in life have the feeling of winning 32k, have it on your bank account, celebrate and 2 days after someone debit it from your bank again. Its not good. The feeling here is about robbery, hypocrisy, I cant explain. Im not exagerating, maybe its because my english is not that good and it seems to be a catastrophic situation (yes its bad, but there are worse things).

  33. #68
    austin
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    Quote Originally Posted by yokspot View Post
    I just wanted to clarify that you deposited less than 32,000, so the funds recalled didn't put you out of pocket as per pre-promo levels. As I understand it, you deposited 300, then churned (transfered as opposed to deposited) 200 back and forth, from exchange to casino, racking up 300 / 400 or so bonuses in the process and so generating the final sum of 32,000.

    You could have been a bit more subtle about it.
    it's called taking a shot, but within the terms and conditions - very gray area

  34. #69
    BChrisB
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    Emanuel,

    Sounds like your going to get your money. If the bank said it was illegal, they should be filing the report on your behalf.
    Last edited by BChrisB; 12-01-10 at 12:17 AM.

  35. #70
    noyb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emanuel83 View Post
    Im not traumatized friend. I just hope you never in life have the feeling of winning 32k, have it on your bank account, celebrate and 2 days after someone debit it from your bank again. Its not good. The feeling here is about robbery, hypocrisy, I cant explain. Im not exagerating, maybe its because my english is not that good and it seems to be a catastrophic situation (yes its bad, but there are worse things).
    emanuel, it wasn't like you won 32k out of the blue in some sort of lottery. you saw a promo which was ev+ to you, obviously ev - to the book and likely based on some sort of an error on their part and totally raped it. good for you and i think you should get paid, but going on about how unfair this all is to you you're trying to make yourself look like some sort of a newbie who happens to have won a lucky jackpot and is now ****** over by the book, while things are obviously not so black-and-white. good luck with getting your money back though.

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