[Optional]

Excuse me, but what is not quite right Optional?

Sorry, english isnt my native Language, but i try my best.

From their point of view they were still trying to help you in your native language, you said change to English so you can post it in public, they say they replied if you threaten us we will not speak to you anymore. And you responded by threatening them. So they stopped speaking to you anymore.

Anyway, there is no point at all arguing about it, that won't get you anywhere now. I sent you a PM again suggesting how to deal with him, and to have another try.

Hopefully you try my advice this time.



The owner is a bit like the Asian 5Dimes Tony. Tough and no tolerance for customers bitching or telling how he should run the business or what he must do.

[sarkami]

@Optional Thanks for all your efforts and your suggestion you sent me. I will fulfill your proposal as good as possible and report the outcome here.

@Community I am reading and reflecting on all your posts. I really appreciate your thoughts and will come to them back if the direct dialogue with the agent failed.

[ShanghaiBeijing1]

Good luck Sarkami. I hope they do the right thing and at least meet you halfway or give you truthful details about the confiscated funds.

Maybe being the bigger person and apologizing first for any perceived slights that Bet IBC gathered from your e-mail communications might make them more receptive to hearing you out.

[Optional]

@Optional Thanks for all your efforts and your suggestion you sent me. I will fulfill your proposal as good as possible and report the outcome here.

@Community I am reading and reflecting on all your posts. I really appreciate your thoughts and will come to them back if the direct dialogue with the agent failed.

Great. I let him know that I suggested you contact him directly and try again.

[sarkami]

Cheers for keeping your fingers crossed for it.

Got an answer from Bet-Ibcs owner today

and here is the result:





Although it was my funds that are gone and not theirs i made a step towards them and apologised me,

but got the door slammed again in front my nose.

No responsibility for their Accounts and if there are problems with their Accounts the customer has to take 100% of the damage on its own,

even when there is zero evidence that the customer made a fault.

[sarkami]

Ok its time for the next steps.

First of all i will spread this thievery of Betfair/Bet-Ibc in more forums, so that all are aware of the cautions.

I have spoken to the owner there a few times and he can be flexible/reasonable...

...Maybe even mention to him that I suggested this idea as a fair way to go.

Do you still think he is reasonable seeing that he open Betfair accounts, and when there is a problem the agent isnt responsible and the customer has to take the full damage and customer even cant solve this problem with Betfair directly or get a lawyer, cause the agent created this Account not the customer, and seeing that the agent isnt interested neither going further steps to clear the problem with Betfair nor in taking shares of damage?

100% Betfair found out that account is under different name.

To be honest, you should hold Bet-IBC accountable for every single penny there since they have opened up that account for you. On the other side, you can wait for SBR complaint to be done and then prepare all the evidence and go directly to Betfair and report all of that to them...

Yes this i will do now, a fully documented report to Betfair. Lets see what betfair answer.

[Optional]

Cheers for keeping your fingers crossed for it.

Got an answer from Bet-Ibcs owner today

and here is the result:





Although it was my funds that are gone and not theirs i made a step towards them and apologised me,

but got the door slammed again in front my nose.

No responsibility for their Accounts and if there are problems with their Accounts the customer has to take 100% of the damage on its own,

even when there is zero evidence that the customer made a fault.

I'm sorry to hear that.

I received an a bit of an indignant reply from them myself, for suggesting you reach out the way I did.

[Optional]

Ok its time for the next steps.

First of all i will spread this thievery of Betfair/Bet-Ibc in more forums, so that all are aware of the cautions.



Do you still think he is reasonable seeing that he open Betfair accounts, and when there is a problem the agent isnt responsible and the customer has to take the full damage and customer even cant solve this problem with Betfair directly or get a lawyer, cause the agent created this Account not the customer, and seeing that the agent isnt interested neither going further steps to clear the problem with Betfair nor in taking shares of damage?


Yes this i will do now, a fully documented report to Betfair. Lets see what betfair answer.

Yes, I still do think he can be reasonable. In fact he has been so reasonable in the past that he has accepted every single suggestion I have made to resolve issues like this, before now.


I think you are acting like you had no part in the decision to use a Betfair account that was not in your name.

I think that is an unreasonable stance to take.

You took the risk of allowing your money to go into a fake account.

Whether we think Bet-IBC are being unreasonable or not, you deciding to try and destroy their business, basically because you do not think you should have to stick to their terms which you agreed to, is much more unreasonable.


And speaking of personal responsibility. If you had taken my advice and simply made a reasonable suggestion to share the loss to start with, instead of arguing non-endingly that they had to pay you every cent, you would have likely been looked after.

You made that choice yourself too.

Personal responsibility Sarkami.

[ShanghaiBeijing1]

Ok its time for the next steps.

First of all i will spread this thievery of Betfair/Bet-Ibc in more forums, so that all are aware of the cautions.



Do you still think he is reasonable seeing that he open Betfair accounts, and when there is a problem the agent isnt responsible and the customer has to take the full damage and customer even cant solve this problem with Betfair directly or get a lawyer, cause the agent created this Account not the customer, and seeing that the agent isnt interested neither going further steps to clear the problem with Betfair nor in taking shares of damage?


Yes this i will do now, a fully documented report to Betfair. Lets see what betfair answer.

It's an expensive lesson. I've had a few. Hopefully Betfair can at least explain to you why funds were confiscated. Good Luck

[sarkami]

I received an a bit of an indignant reply from them myself, for suggesting you reach out the way I did.

I'm sorry to hear that too, because you have only submitted your opinion as a neutral mediator Optional, that is not reprehensible. Your sense of justice felt that the agent could take over at least half of the damage.

It is interesting to see that Bet-Ibc respond to your opinion with indignation and accuse me blackmail, as if they themselves are the victim, but the victim I am, i lost everything.

Bet-ibc on the other hand earned a total of 5digits of their 5% deposit and 5% withdrawl charges from me for clicking 2-3 times/month on the deposit/withdrawl button, and now you really need their help for the first time, you can see that they have secured themselves with clauses, that hardly anyone knows, against it. All of course only to the detriment of the customer.

I think you are acting like you had no part in the decision to use a Betfair account that was not in your name.

I think that is an unreasonable stance to take.

You took the risk of allowing your money to go into a fake account.

If i was acting like i had no part in the decision to use a Betfair account that was not in my name, then I would not have been willing to give up half of my money. They are acting like this.

I first noticed that the account is fake after I deposited and then saw the account details. At this point I should have paid off, that was my mistake, you're right Optional. But if i had done that, at least 10% or (with express option) even 20% of the deposit is straight gone into Bet-Ibc's pockets. That was their trap.

Furthermore, in the internet Bet-Ibc is showing themselves as a partner of Betfair. I've seen threads where Betfair speaks directly to Bet-ibc, before i subscribed to Bet-Ibc, so I believed them to be partners. Here is an example of their communication:


There was a screenshot in this thread which is clearly showing the communication between the Betfair and Bet-Ibc, but it was deleted..
Fortunately i saved it, and here it is:


So i thought if Betfair is knowing Bet-Ibc/Bet-Ibc's Accounts and Account-details and Bet-Ibc is even their VIP customer which provide many Betfair Accounts for people in the world, then why should Betfair close these Accounts and even seizing all funds? So i trusted them..

It's an expensive lesson. I've had a few. Hopefully Betfair can at least explain to you why funds were confiscated. Good Luck

Whether we think Bet-IBC are being unreasonable or not, you deciding to try and destroy their business, basically because you do not think you should have to stick to their terms which you agreed to, is much more unreasonable.

Thanks ShanghaiBeijing1.

I dont want to destroy their business.
I am only a scammed person, and trying to exercise pressure on them to get my money back or get answers from Betfair why my account is closed without reasons. If this fails at least i can contribute to protect other people from being scammed, just as they wrote and protected me as they got scammed in the past from other bookies/agents.

If posting the truth is destroying their business, than the problem isnt with me but with their questionable business practice: for example to open Fake Accounts.

And speaking of personal responsibility. If you had taken my advice and simply made a reasonable suggestion to share the loss to start with, instead of arguing non-endingly that they had to pay you every cent, you would have likely been looked after.

You made that choice yourself too.

Personal responsibility Sarkami.

I do not understand what you mean, cause i took your advice everytime since i posted here: Account was closed on 02.08. On the same day after pming them, they told me:

''We will send you the money to your payment address you used for deposit.
Sorry for the inconveniences.''

A lie. Waited till 08.08. got no money and no message. So i pmed them again, reply ''no new news''. So i waited again, with no message from them, till 26.08 where i pmed them again: there they told me that Betfair closed the Account permanently. I was shocked. All our discussions we had only on one day, the 26.08. Then i made the decision to post it in a forum, chose SBR and posted here 31.08. So since 26.08 i had no communication with them, till i offered them on 04.10. your offer to share the damage.

So when did i not take your advice since posting here on 31.08?

On 26.08. they day where all my money is gone i was a bit emotional, then they said they wont communicate with me anymore, i apologised on 04.10. and they seem to accepted because they gave me an answer next day and talked again to me.

How can i take your advice before you told me your advice? And even then they would answer you most likely the same what they answered me ''Our company policy does not allow sharing losses with clients, as we have to treat every client in the same way''

[Optional]

I am sorry that I mixed you up with the other poster Sarkami. But I don't know what else to tell you now.

They have terms that say if an upline book holds funds, that is not their fault.

They say they will not be changing their mind for you about waving that rule.

They say they wont consider any goodwill decision for you as they do not want your business anymore due to threatening them and posting account names in public.


There is no use posting other peoples conversations, that same message was previously deleted from this forum as well on request of both parties involved. As both the book and that player involved asked for it to be taken down. Not sure how you think this helps you anyway. If you want to push IBC into biting back maybe its a good idea. Not sure what else it will get you now though. But I'll leave it to you to delete it if you choose to. Like being reasonable from the start, and like threatening them or not, this is another choice for you to make and take responsibility for. I'd counsel you to make a smarter choice this time. Good luck.

[Optional]

I do not understand what you mean, cause i took your advice everytime since i posted here

Are you a little bit delusional?

Look back to page 1 of this thread.

At about post #10 I advised you how to fix your situation.

Eight days later you replied to say that you did not like my idea and would keep arguing for all money.


I then told another poster it was a bad idea to post exact account details.

You replied and said you don't care, you think its all public anyway, and then posted a private converastion you knew had already been deleted from public forums.


A full week after all of that, you requested that I should try to ask them exactly what I had suggested that YOU ASK THEM YOURSELF over two weeks earlier.

You needed to ask this stuff yourself. It means nothing coming from me.


Does that help you understand what i mean?

Is it my fault now that you chose to ignore me at every step? Is that the crux of all those words?

[dealer wins]

I still think that as Betfair accepted BET-IBCs client accounts, they owe a full explanation of why they are seizing the complete balance of one of their accounts. As they are a betting exchange, the reason cant be taking a bad line or for any bets placed on the exchange, so can only be for potential funds passing that I can think of. And looking at the P&L statement on page 1 of the thread it looks like a perfectly normal one of any serious punter/arber/trader to me.

I can understand why the player is frustrated, this is a very large amount basically for want of a better word, stolen from the player with no explanation whatsoever.

[sarkami]

You hit the point dealer wins, nice spoken.

The screens i took only by chance, because the account was closed suddenly. I'm a experienced trader and i'm knowing that fund passing can be very very easily detected by the betfairs traders. I would like to have presented you my full P&L if possible to exclude that completely.

Not sure how you think this helps you anyway.

When I saw the conversation between bet-ibc and betfair in public forums and the screenshot in the arbusers forum, this proved to me that bet-ibc is the accepted client of betfair. this proof removed the doubt I had about the fake account. It is a proof that I did not act completely grossly negligent.

Look back to page 1 of this thread... Is that the crux of all those words?

ah ok i thought we were only talking about the email conversation i had with them and not about the things i posted here. I did not ignore you, but took every one of your advices seriously, thank you for everything you did Optional. I only needed some time to think about your suggestions and in the meantime I have exchanged ideas with the others and collected some facts with the community about this case.

[sarkami]

In the meantime, Betfair has contacted me and

now hold on tight:


They gave me a reason for the closure!!!


Interesting to see how important it was for bet-ibc to solve their customer's problems ''betfair gave no reason at all''.

But see for yourself.









Seizing all funds as a business decision. As an exchange. Unreal!

That normally means I am not profitable, but not go hand in hand with funds confiscation.

[Optional]

Now knowing that Bet-IBC were not lying to you, do you think it is ok for them to have followed their terms and not covered your loss?

[ShanghaiBeijing1]

I guess I owe Bet-IBC an apology for saying they lied about that aspect of OP's situation. I hereby stand corrected.

[sarkami]

@Optional Yes

This reply from Betfair changed the case. It turned the focus from Bet-Ibc/Betfair to Betfair now.

Bet-Ibc told the truth.

I will update all my raised topics now to show that Betfair has confiscated all funds, as a ''business decision'',
and not Bet-Ibc, who arent to blame at this time, except that they show no responsibility to help their customer in this situation, and im sorry for the accusations i made towards them.


But how can it be that Betfair, the world biggest betting-exchange is seizing all funds of an innocent customer as a business decision?

[arie1985]

But how can it be that Betfair, the world biggest betting-exchange is seizing all funds of an innocent customer as a business decision?

As far as they are concerned the account used belongs to someone who hasn't used the account - this is such a tricky issue.

If you were using an agent with an account in Orbit Exchange (BetFair whitelabel) you would probably never have gotten into an issue like this but you mentioned you had to use an API or something like that, which won't work with this product.

This is such an annoying situation ... the only thing you can do is pursue this if you believe BetFair knew about this type of activity (i.e. agent providing account of someone else) but I am not too sure how to even start proving something like this.

I know that Matchbook compensated some players who were self-excluded and were able to use an agent account (thus they stopped using agents) - BetFair is "smart" as the white labels are not BetFair itself and BetFair knows how to protect itself from all angles.

[sarkami]

As far as they are concerned the account used belongs to someone who hasn't used the account - this is such a tricky issue.

Yeah, if the 'business decision' is related to the account details (name etc) created by the agent at all. but who knows...



The question is:

What does 'business decision' mean and what do you think can be done now?

[sarkami]

This is such an annoying situation ... the only thing you can do is pursue this if you believe BetFair knew about this type of activity (i.e. agent providing account of someone else) but I am not too sure how to even start proving something like this.

Here look at this, i have further proofs for the community:

The Threadopener in the arbusers forum had like me a direct Betfair (single) account and no Vip-Ibc-tool (multibookie) account.
He was just like me a trader: he tennis, me soccer and trading (back-lay) isnt possible with their VIP IBC tool, only back possible.
On page 3, Bet-Ibc took a screenshot of the threadopeners account (https://arbusers.com/index.php?topic=6163.30)



The user interface clearly shows that it is also a direct Betfair account, like mine.

And just like me, his account was created by Bet-Ibc on a woman from Russia / Moldova (page 4 arbusers):



Do you see that this is their method?

Creating Accounts on 3rd parties assigned to a client and afterwards Betfair is seizing all funds, although Betfair is knowing their Client Bet-Ibc?

Do you see that this is a scam?

[dealer wins]

Thats just pure dodgy from the agent and Betfair. They need to pay the OP his money!!

[Andy21]

Hi Sarkami,

I'm the OP from arbusers forum that lost about 64k from this scammers, the last updates that I have from authorities is that my case is very complex to solve and I need to work with an specialized lawyer, I'm already in contact with some but is kinda hard to explain and also to solve, but at the end of the day betfair have a lot more to lose if we go ahead, I also already contacted some journalists but if you want we can "work together", maybe we can have our money back because the first time I contacted betfair directly threatening them that I would expose this whole case of my account and their involvement with bet-ibc they unlocked my account even with the balance which they accuse me of doing money laundering. I still have all of the proofs against both. You can send me your email via pm.

[ShanghaiBeijing1]

Hi Sarkami,

I'm the OP from arbusers forum that lost about 64k from this scammers, the last updates that I have from authorities is that my case is very complex to solve and I need to work with an specialized lawyer, I'm already in contact with some but is kinda hard to explain and also to solve, but at the end of the day betfair have a lot more to lose if we go ahead, I also already contacted some journalists but if you want we can "work together", maybe we can have our money back because the first time I contacted betfair directly threatening them that I would expose this whole case of my account and their involvement with bet-ibc they unlocked my account even with the balance which they accuse me of doing money laundering. I still have all of the proofs against both. You can send me your email via pm.

I recall following your thread awhile back (first time I had read anything on that forum). So many plot twist. It was very interesting to say the least. You did a great job presenting the evidence of how they were trying to impugn your credibility.

[Optional]

Do you see that this is their method?

Creating Accounts on 3rd parties assigned to a client and afterwards Betfair is seizing all funds, although Betfair is knowing their Client Bet-Ibc?

Do you see that this is a scam?

If you want to call what Bet-IBC provided for you as a scam.

Does that not mean that you knowingly took part in this scam?

Did Bet-IBC trick you into taking this account? Or breach the terms you agreed to in any way?


You can hardly act like Bet-IBC is scamming, and you are innocent, when things go wrong.

Do you really think you are justified attacking them, and going to Betfair to try and take down the business?


I guess you don't care that the same thing could happen to other users like yourself.

But imagine you are still there doing what you have been doing for years and some other turkey took it upon themselves to get your account suspended, just because theirs was?

Would you wonder what the point of them doing that even was?

[sarkami]

@Andy21

Hi Andy21, thanks for writing me and giving here your 1st post. Surely we can talk to each other, but i cannot send pms too. I have sent a pm to the staff/Optional with my email, hopefully he can forward it to you, if its ok for the mods.

@Optional

Hi Optional. We were already at this point, and i can only admit again that it was my decision to take the risk of allowing my money to go into Bet-Ibcs Account. And that Bet-Ibc havent breached its terms. It was Betfairs decision to close/seize and not Bet-Ibcs.
For me the scam is less that what Bet-Ibc have done, but more the whole Betfair-Bet-Ibc thing, the whole thing that swallowed my money in the end. My question now Optional and all is,

why Betfair is closing and seizing all the funds of one of Bet-Ibcs Accounts even though Betfair is having Bet-Ibc as their client, is knowing them and is communicating with them? Betfair is knowing Bet-Ibc's methods to create accounts (for example russian women names), then why they close afterwards (a winning) Account and steal the entire funds?

I am of course willing to give up all my money if Betfair tells me my mistake, but not under the given 'business decision'!

Do you think this is fair from Betfair?

[PunterLog]

Does that not mean that you knowingly took part in this scam?

Did Bet-IBC trick you into taking this account? Or breach the terms you agreed to in any way?


You can hardly act like Bet-IBC is scamming, and you are innocent, when things go wrong.

Do you really think you are justified attacking them, and going to Betfair to try and take down the business?

Optional, i think you are a reasonable guy with good intentions in general. But, i'd have to disagree with you here.

The biggest thing here is that, it looks like Betfair is aware of Bet-IBC's tactics but then selectively confiscates funds from winning players. That is absolutely ridiculous from Betfair.

They should either not accept Bet-IBC's tactics completely or they should treat all accounts i.e winning and losing accounts equally. But, if they have no problem with allowing losing players but seize funds from winning players, they need to be held accountable.

I'm so intrigued by Betfair's policy here that i might open an account and then if Betfair pulls the same tactics with me after making a decent profit, i'll get my own lawyers involved in this circus run by Betfair.

[Optional]

Passed on your PM.

And I don't really know why Betfair do what they do. But as we discussed early on page 1 of the thread, they don't do it a lot that we know of, but they do it often enough to agent accounts that we know its a real thing and we have seen that Betfair often wont say.

At a guess, with the setup you were using, it's understandable the agent would not want to press them too hard about it as well.

A "business decision" usually implies that it is about profitability at most books, but I am guessing the CS agent is just using those words as a way of saying they are not going to tell you why, rather than meaning it as that sort of reason.

When we do get an explanation it's usually for using Betfair to transfer funds to another account or for some sort of bot use they consider out of line. When they don't give any reason, I suspect it is often due to the issue being reportable under their license. If it's money laundering for example, Betfair are not supposed to tell you anything at all like this.

[Optional]

Optional, i think you are a reasonable guy with good intentions in general. But, i'd have to disagree with you here.

The biggest thing here is that, it looks like Betfair is aware of Bet-IBC's tactics but then selectively confiscates funds from winning players. That is absolutely ridiculous from Betfair.

They should either not accept Bet-IBC's tactics completely or they should treat all accounts i.e winning and losing accounts equally. But, if they have no problem with allowing losing players but seize funds from winning players, they need to be held accountable.

I'm so intrigued by Betfair's policy here that i might open an account and then if Betfair pulls the same tactics with me after making a decent profit, i'll get my own lawyers involved in this circus run by Betfair.

Personally I don't think confiscations are a serious issue for regular Betfair users. If the account is in your name, even if you do get caught passing funds, as long as you can pass KYC those funds will go back to their original sources rather than be confiscated.

When using an agent, with bitcoin, who deposits on your behalf to books, the source of the account funds can become blurry and it's possible to have the funds you end up playing with the subject of tracking by authorities, and Betfair ordered to confiscate them that way. Just as another example apart from bot usage or wrong name on account or passing funds.

Like I said early in the thread, it seems reasonable to me that both parties should share the loss in this situation. But given the clear terms, I don't see it as fair to think we can demand that happens. I was probably a bit rough on Sarkarmi putting so much blame on him for not handling this better. Sorry to him for that, it was mostly frustration knowing trying to argue for the full balance was going to hurt his chances of getting an agreement, and having to watch him do it anyway, and then be asked to try and clean up after the damage was done. But I do understand why he and you feel as you do though.

The whole setup is a grey area. Personally I would not use them. But people have good (and bad) reasons for choosing them anyway and taking the risks. When things go wrong it really is a two person responsibility thing in my mind.

[PunterLog]

Like I said early in the thread, it seems reasonable to me that both parties should share the loss in this situation. But given the clear terms, I don't see it as fair to think we can demand that happens. I was probably a bit rough on Sarkarmi putting so much blame on him for not handling this better. Sorry to him for that, it was mostly frustration knowing trying to argue for the full balance was going to hurt his chances of getting an agreement, and having to watch him do it anyway, and then be asked to try and clean up after the damage was done. But I do understand why he and you feel as you do though.

The whole setup is a grey area. Personally I would not use them. But people have good (and bad) reasons for choosing them anyway and taking the risks. When things go wrong it really is a two person responsibility thing in my mind.

Personally, i'm not a fan of the way Sarkami has approached the entire incident. But, it's his money and i won't be too harsh on him even though i disagree on his approach. Also, don't be too tough on yourself, being a Moderator is extremely difficult and one's judgement can get clouded at times.

I'm from a country where i can't have a direct Betfair account and i'll have to rely on agents. Which is why incidents like this are pretty scary and personal. I will definitely be trying this out myself with betfair via an agent on Orbitx, 9wickets or Mountbet. I'll see what they do when i try to withdraw Six figures. This whole confusion with agents regarding how safe they are needs to end.

[lonnie55]

The whole setup is a grey area. Personally I would not use them. But people have good (and bad) reasons for choosing them anyway and taking the risks. When things go wrong it really is a two person responsibility thing in my mind.

This

[nutmegDE]

You are from Germany so how is it even possible to get a Betfair account?

[JoeCool20]

From their point of view they were still trying to help you in your native language, you said change to English so you can post it in public, they say they replied if you threaten us we will not speak to you anymore. And you responded by threatening them. So they stopped speaking to you anymore.

Anyway, there is no point at all arguing about it, that won't get you anywhere now. I sent you a PM again suggesting how to deal with him, and to have another try.

Hopefully you try my advice this time.



The owner is a bit like the Asian 5Dimes Tony. Tough and no tolerance for customers bitching or telling how he should run the business or what he must do.

LOL They stole his money and then said "We are ceasing communication because you said you might tell

other people that we stole your money." LOL At the things these places come up with to cheat and steal.

It is incredible!

[JoeCool20]

I'm so intrigued by Betfair's policy here that i might open an account and then if Betfair pulls the same tactics with me after making a decent profit, i'll get my own lawyers involved in this circus run by Betfair.


Personally, i'm not a fan of the way Sarkami has approached the entire incident. But, it's his money and i won't be too harsh on him even though i disagree on his approach. Also, don't be too tough on yourself, being a Moderator is extremely difficult and one's judgement can get clouded at times.

I'm from a country where i can't have a direct Betfair account and i'll have to rely on agents. Which is why incidents like this are pretty scary and personal. I will definitely be trying this out myself with betfair via an agent on Orbitx, 9wickets or Mountbet. I'll see what they do when i try to withdraw Six figures. This whole confusion with agents regarding how safe they are needs to end.

LOL Why the hell are you going to open an account with a place that you KNOW just stole somebody's money?

Because if they steal from you, then you think you or your lawyers can do something about it? LOL Surely not!

[PunterLog]

LOL Why the hell are you going to open an account with a place that you KNOW just stole somebody's money?

Because if they steal from you, then you think you or your lawyers can do something about it? LOL Surely not!

I said i'd try it out with Orbit, 9 wickets and Mountbet not direct account from Bet-IBC. I'd never use a service like Bet-IBC that provides accounts on others names. That's too risky.

If it turns out that agent accounts via Orbit, 9 Wickets are also not safe, then it'd be crystal clear that you can't trust any account other than a real Betfair one. And yes i'd personally like to try it myself with clean wagering and see if i get paid or not. It's absolutely worth it for me.