[BuddyBear]

M.R.

[Itsamazing777]

Cabrera is historically good offensively (i.e. wRC+ 200 is insane this year)....but unfortunately he is very mediocre to below average in most other facets of the game: speed, base running, arm strength, fielding, range....not even to mention his personal problems off the field (i.e. multiple drinking and driving violations). But since most fans do not care about anything other than offense, most people think he is the greatest player ever. Triple Crown is nice, but not as special as it has been made out to be. I think it was obvious that Trout was the best baseball player in the league by a wide margin last year but somehow the behind the times voters got it wrong. In fact, I thought there were a few National League players who had better years....but unfortunately baseball is so tied to tradition that it fails to see the full picture sometimes. I think in terms of best players ever, I would rank Cabrera right now somewhere in the top 100, possibly top 75 or better depending how much you want to weight offense. To me, it still remains, Barry Bonds is by far the best player in the past 70 years and it is not even close. For a while, Pujols looked like he was going to assume that title but he has fizzled out. It's extremely hard to be an elite player for 10+ years in MLB. But right now, 2013, almost everyone looks like a minor league player compared to Cabrera. It honestly astonishes me, just like last year, why the Tigers are not better than they are given their offensive weapons and probably having the best rotation in all of baseball.

You must be nuts. He's done this for ten years already.

[greenhippo]

On the Hornsby and Shoeless note, Sisler needs to get more love.

[BuddyBear]

You must be nuts. He's done this for ten years already.

Bonds did it for 19 years?

Sorry, but being in the top 100 MLB players of all time is pretty good. What more do you want me to say? He is not better than Bonds. He is not better than Pujols and as good as his Triple Crown season was, there were other MLB players who had similar or better seasons.

[pavyracer]

Chipper Jones

[Chi_archie]

Henry Aaron did it for 20+ years

[The Giant]

After carefully dissecting the question that the OP laid forth, I broke this question down sabermetrically, and then confirmed with my baseball "big board".

There have, in fact, been better baseball hitters than Miguel Cabrera.

Miggy is #14 all-time according to my calculations.

[pulledclear]

Exactly, Ted Williams doesn't edge Pujols by a great deal even though he played in an era where pitchers were far inferior to what they are today. There were no 'four pitch' pitchers back in the 40's, there were no advanced metrics, zone scouting reports to capitalize on hitter weaknesses like today.

Pujols and Miggy have done what they've done in spite of the best technology in the world trying to game-plan against them. Ted Williams would have some Joe Schmoe opposing him on the mound who would just get told 'go get 3 by ole Teddy' and that was his scouting report.

No comparison.

If Ted Williams played in todays era he would have Ichiro/Tony Gwynn type numbers at best, possibly a high average but he would lose most of his power numbers trying to compensate for pitchers that actually have a repetiore and can focus on his weaknesses.

Have you lost your fckng mind? Todays overpaid dckheads HOVER over the plate and the strike zone is about the size of a loaf of bread. !! You cant even brush a guy off the plate with out getting tossed. Try standing over the top of the plate in Williams day and you would get a 95 mile an hour fast ball about 2 inches from your chin. Todays pitching is the WORST IN HISTORY get a grip Jr.


Advanced metrics

[Chi_archie]

Have you lost your fckng mind? Todays overpaid dckheads HOVER over the plate and the strike zone is about the size of a loaf of bread. !! You cant even brush a guy off the plate with out getting tossed. Try standing over the top of the plate in Williams day and you would get a 95 mile an hour fast ball about 2 inches from your chin. Todays pitching is the WORST IN HISTORY get a grip Jr.


Advanced metrics

don't forget the higher mound

[InTheDrink]

just a little perspective here

guyes whose seasons would have won triple crowns against last year's crop

bonds 2001
manny 1999
pujols 2006
pujols 2009
frank thomas 2000

[HOT WINGS]

http://www.freep.com/article/2013052...S02/305200131/

Here's a good article interviewing Bonds about Cabrera. Think it sums it up pretty well. Cabrera is just in his prime right now. He has a lot of years still left to prove himself. His numbers will get there to put him with all time greats IMO.

[You mad bro]

With the exception of Mantle, all these guys played in a very different (i.e. much weaker) era of baseball. Cabrera would have been a .400 hitter basically in the era that Ruth and Gherig and Williams played in. I think Pujols is the best comparison you can make to Cabrera as a hitter.

much weaker? how so? these guys were swinging 40+ oz bats .. played with fences 450 ft deep ..

the advantage is to the hitter now more than ever .. look at all these pitchers who can barely keep a 3 era .. cmon dude you know better

[You mad bro]

fences now to right and left can barely hit 350 ft in some parks .. look at yankee stadium .. if ruth played today he would have 1400 home runs easy .. he can hit the ball 300 ft with 1 arm ... mantle did it

[darrell74]

Don't forget Prince Fielder.
I love Miggy, but remember, last year, he protected Miggy and he gets the triple crown.
Year before that, protected Ryan Braun and he gets the NL MVP, in Milwaukee.

In 2010, the crackhead in Arlington got the MVP with his prima dona, hunger for ESPN love, while Miggy got free passes because Brennan Boesch was his protection. Brennan, I believe has benn reassigned by the Yankees-obtw.

Miguel Cabrera rocks

[darrell74]

Barry Bonds supporters, I still like your side of it.
Barry Bonds had the most correct, and consistent batting stance and he could never be rattled. Barry knew how to take a walk, also.

Miggy swings a lot of garbage pitches. makes some of us Miggy backers nervous. But Miggy can hit for average-similar to Rod Carew.

[darrell74]

the untangible to Miggy that people don't talk about is that Miguel Cabrera moved to third, to make room for Prince Fielder. Those two act like best friends!!!!!
One of the most beautiful intangibles to the game of baseball that I've seen in a very long time.
I'm a big fan of that.


OBTW, they play in a pitchers park.
Imagine what kind of gaudy numbers Miggy and Prince would get if they were in Yankke Stadium, Coors, or Arlington. They would easily hall of fame as the best cleanup dual of all time. EASILY!!!

[Chi_archie]

OBTW, they play in a pitchers park.
Imagine what kind of gaudy numbers Miggy and Prince would get if they were in Yankke Stadium, Coors, or Arlington. They would easily hall of fame as the best cleanup dual of all time. EASILY!!!

from 2010-2012 he hit better at home interestingly enough

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/splits...miguel-cabrera

[billysink]

http://www.freep.com/article/2013052...S02/305200131/

Here's a good article interviewing Bonds about Cabrera. Think it sums it up pretty well. Cabrera is just in his prime right now. He has a lot of years still left to prove himself. His numbers will get there to put him with all time greats IMO.

Great article thanks for posting.

[Smoke]

[BuddyBear]

much weaker? how so? these guys were swinging 40+ oz bats .. played with fences 450 ft deep ..

the advantage is to the hitter now more than ever .. look at all these pitchers who can barely keep a 3 era .. cmon dude you know better

Baseball was a very inefficient game back then. If you read an essay by Stephen Jay Gould entitled, "Why Nobody Hits .400 Anymore" in his book Triumph and Tragedy and Mudville, you can only be left with the conclusion that today's baseball players are much much better than any of the players before the WWII era. Sure, certain players would be great in any generation but those players constitute only a select few. Lot of people like to fantasize about how much better baseball use to be back in the "old days" but the reality is that as of 2013, baseball is better than it has ever been in the history of the game.

[2daBank]

Have you lost your fckng mind? Todays overpaid dckheads HOVER over the plate and the strike zone is about the size of a loaf of bread. !! You cant even brush a guy off the plate with out getting tossed. Try standing over the top of the plate in Williams day and you would get a 95 mile an hour fast ball about 2 inches from your chin. Todays pitching is the WORST IN HISTORY get a grip Jr.


Advanced metrics

you sure about that? hits per 9 way down, k's way up..everyone coming in out of pens throwing 95-100mph..pitching has become quite dominate of late and i seriously doubt you can find a time where guys saw more nasty stuff than they see now on a day to day basis..

[Itsamazing777]

Bonds did it for 19 years?

Sorry, but being in the top 100 MLB players of all time is pretty good. What more do you want me to say? He is not better than Bonds. He is not better than Pujols and as good as his Triple Crown season was, there were other MLB players who had similar or better seasons.

It's are to say it will continue till he retires....

[Itsamazing777]

you sure about that? hits per 9 way down, k's way up..everyone coming in out of pens throwing 95-100mph..pitching has become quite dominate of late and i seriously doubt you can find a time where guys saw more nasty stuff than they see now on a day to day basis..

People threw 70 in the 1930s Not even close. Babe Ruth would be a minor league Player today

[GimpedMaster]

you sure about that? hits per 9 way down, k's way up..everyone coming in out of pens throwing 95-100mph..pitching has become quite dominate of late and i seriously doubt you can find a time where guys saw more nasty stuff than they see now on a day to day basis..

You're missing the point, pitchers are ASTRONOMICALLY better today than they were back then.

You take a 100 mph pitcher from today and put him on an elevated mound and against old timey hitters, the guy would have an ERA of zero all season.

[GimpedMaster]

Have you lost your fckng mind? Todays overpaid dckheads HOVER over the plate and the strike zone is about the size of a loaf of bread. !! You cant even brush a guy off the plate with out getting tossed. Try standing over the top of the plate in Williams day and you would get a 95 mile an hour fast ball about 2 inches from your chin. Todays pitching is the WORST IN HISTORY get a grip Jr.



Advanced metrics

You prove that you have no idea what you're talking about. Todays pitcher put back in the 30's would be tossing around twice as fast as the league average. He'd be putting hall of famers away like little leaguers.

You have no idea how much more efficient and near perfect todays game is. The pitcher of today using the old school strike zone could throw a no hitter every other start.

[You mad bro]

Baseball was a very inefficient game back then. If you read an essay by Stephen Jay Gould entitled, "Why Nobody Hits .400 Anymore" in his book Triumph and Tragedy and Mudville, you can only be left with the conclusion that today's baseball players are much much better than any of the players before the WWII era. Sure, certain players would be great in any generation but those players constitute only a select few. Lot of people like to fantasize about how much better baseball use to be back in the "old days" but the reality is that as of 2013, baseball is better than it has ever been in the history of the game.

buddy i love baseball .. i just think its a joke how all these steroid players are still playing .. its cheating .. they are cheating to win at a sport .. its not just baseball tho and i know that .. its just insane how baseball has changed .. going from playing in 450 ft ballparks with pitchers pitching every other day to 400 ft parks and pitchers barely throwing 90 pitches every 5 games .. just a different era of ball .. do u think that ruth would have hit less home runs in this era? i mean the guy was hitting the ball 450+ ft with ease .. same with mantle .. look at joe d's stats ... less strikeouts than home runs for a career .. thats just fckn insane

[2daBank]

You're missing the point, pitchers are ASTRONOMICALLY better today than they were back then.

You take a 100 mph pitcher from today and put him on an elevated mound and against old timey hitters, the guy would have an ERA of zero all season.

think that is what i was saying??? not sure what point im missing..

[Lockitup_Panda]

People threw 70 in the 1930s Not even close. Babe Ruth would be a minor league Player today

Walter Johnson was gunning people out with 95-100mph fastball from 1907 to 1927

[You mad bro]

if pitchers are so much better why do they have to be babied and throw barely 90 pitches a game? while guys were throwing double headers opposed to now every 5 games .. its just a different era of baseball which is hard to compare

[You mad bro]

People threw 70 in the 1930s Not even close. Babe Ruth would be a minor league Player today

if babe ruth played today he would have 1400 home runs ... u my friend are an idiot

[2daBank]

if pitchers are so much better why do they have to be babied and throw barely 90 pitches a game? while guys were throwing double headers opposed to now every 5 games .. its just a different era of baseball which is hard to compare

def hard to compare but i think the fact pitchers are so babied and there so many nasty specialist out of the pen makes it harder to hit than seeing same guy all gm and more often..again i agree hard to compare as so much is different but cant be easier to hit with the way the gm is micromanaged and with so many guys making a living coming out of the pen imho..

[You mad bro]

def hard to compare but i think the fact pitchers are so babied and there so many nasty specialist out of the pen makes it harder to hit than seeing same guy all gm and more often..again i agree hard to compare as so much is different but cant be easier to hit with the way the gm is micromanaged and with so many guys making a living coming out of the pen imho..

yeah i guess so .. but when u these all star pitchers struggling to get out of the 4th inning now a days .. it makes me think if this shiit happened back then when they were throwing 100 pitches with ease .. look at nolan ryan .. guy was throwing 100 at what like 35-40 years old maybe (so i heard) and hes not even that old lol ...

these 2 eras are just way to difficult to compare

[Monchito]

Maybe only Pete Rose and a few others but the quality of pitchers now is as good or better than before so it's hard to appreciate the context of his 11 seasons

[InTheDrink]

i love how people refer to all middle relievers as nasty specialists and these amazing pitchers

i saw roger clemens pitch a game when i was a kid and he threw over 160 pitches (look it up...his last year in bos in a game against balt)

id rather face some average middle reliever of today than clemens on his 159th pitch back then

[2daBank]

i love how people refer to all middle relievers as nasty specialists and these amazing pitchers

i saw roger clemens pitch a game when i was a kid and he threw over 160 pitches (look it up...his last year in bos in a game against balt)

id rather face some average middle reliever of today than clemens on his 159th pitch back then

good teams not putting out "avg relievers" they have solid starters then trot out guys for 7th, 8th, 9th w nasty shit..well yea clemens was juiced up, makes it easier to throw 160 pitches and recover..

if cards starter goes 6 inning you not seeing anyone w avg stuff, you seeing guys that all throw 95-100 until mojica who has a nasty pitch of his own..