[bettilimbroke999]

i think sarah palin would agree with you.

palin's a fukin dumb whore, I measure the correctness of my beliefs by the distance they are from hers, the further the better

[losturmarbles]

bet, have you been drinking tonight? it was a joke.

[bettilimbroke999]

I know, Ive just lost some betpoints today im in a bad mood no pizza

But yea the Obama death squads or whatever that are going to kill her downs sydrome baby just proves what a fukin nut she is

[BadNina]

I would save money by saying at 80 you're pretty much on your own unless you want to pay your own health insurance, its ridiculous to perform 6 figure surgeries and hospital stays to keep a person shitting/pissing in a bag while bedridden with no hope of improvement for another 5 years and paying 40k a year in SS to have a nurse change his/her bag and scrub their corpse body in between illnesses

And that right there is the biggest issue. That is called social engineering. Those are people you are dismissing because of age. You are discriminating because of age. You don't deem them worthy because they are no longer any use to you. The next thing you will say is that people with mental and physical disabilities should have to pay their own too because they don't have any hope for improvement and can't contribute. Then why don't say that all pregnancies that have babies that are going to have problems be it genetic or some abnormality should be ended prior to delivery because of the drain of resources that will occur. You are trying to play God.

And if the Clintons really feel that way, what is stopping them from taking their millions of dollars and buying insurance policies for some poor people? Or paying off someone's medical bills? They don't give a damn. All they want is the power to tell people what to do and have people call them caring and compassionate because they take money from people who are able to work and do and give it to people who don't.

[BadNina]

ps....the 80 year olds deserve their medical care because they worked all those years to earn it. The 20 somethings haven't done jack.

[bettilimbroke999]

The difference in they're gonna die in 5 years anyway there is nothing thats gonna stop that and its not even gonna be a true 5 years itll just be a corpse body pointed at a TV, if a person is so banged up and hopelessly disabled and has no more than 5 years left to live then yes you can effectively cut them off from 6 figure surgeries and hospital stays imo, I mean wtf is the difference, oh he only lived 3 years he coulda shit himself for another year had we spent a half mil on him

Also no one is asking individuals (the Clintons for example) to give up all their money this will be prolly a 3-4% raise in taxes but eliminate the costs that millions are already spending on health insurance to balance that. This will not be the huge overrun on hospitals that you've been led to believe bc 80% of ppl have health insurance already so at most it would be a 20% rise in health care populations since 80% would be no different

[BadNina]

it will be a much higher increase. Just be realistic. And who is to say what kind of quality of life elderly people should have? Should it not be theirs or their families decisions? I think so. Anyone tries to tell me what kind of care Willie Bee should receive better beware. I am a redhead and no one messes with my family. I will put him in the best home and they better treat him like a king.

And don't be an ostrich with your head stuck in the sand. Why one earth would any business continue to pay for health insurance when it is offered "free"? That takes away from the bottom line and they are in business to make money. It's kinda what they are suppose to do. Then you have all the insurance companies that are no longer needed. There are more people out of work. Unemployment numbers are already on the rise with no end in sight. And if doctors and nurses can't earn money and have to be told what kind of care they can give people, why would anyone go into that profession? If you are willing to let an elderly person die so they won't be a burden (cause that is what you are calling them) then you will eventually go after the physically and mentally disabled. Why should they have thousands of dollars spent on them when they have no hope of improvement of quality of life? Do you really want your government to decide if you receive medical treatment?

[bettilimbroke999]

When the conservatives washed your brain did they use Tide or Gain?

You know its not gonna cost any more than 3-4% bc think about it you dont pay but 5% for Medicare which gets you from 65 to the dirt farm which naturally is guaranteed to have serious medical issues bc at some pt you're going to fukin die, so which do you think is going to be more expensive to insure a relatively healthy human being from 21-65 that has an average lifespan of 78 or a rotting near death corpse whose organs have already past their 78 year expiration date and has to die to end his/her coverage

And why are you assuming there would be a much bigger health care population than normal when for the 84% of the population that are already insured nothing would change, this just finishes off coverage for the 16% that arent already insured, thats the only difference this program would make, are you just assuming that that 16% that's not insured are going to march into your hospital like Nazis the moment they become insured and throw out all the currently insured patients?

[BadNina]

I'm way more conservative than any elected official we have. And I'm proud of that. I believe that everyone has opportunities to do what he or she want. People have the power to determine their life style. You want something? You work to get it. You bust your ass to get it.

I know that businesses will stop offering private health care as a benefit when it becomes "free". I know that taxes have to go substantially to pay for all the bs coming out of DC these days. I know that people who have way more money than I do don't think I am paying enough in taxes. I know that members of Congress will not have the same health care that everyone else has. I know that my government does not have the power to tell me that I can keep my private insurance. I know my government does not have the right to tell me what doctors I can use nor what treatments I am allowed to have. I know that there are thousands of men and women who died giving me the rights I have and to keep me from having to bow down to such a government. And by doing this, it is tandemount to spitting on their graves. I know that my grandfather was well into his 90s when he received his last pacemaker that was paid for my Medicare. He died within 6 months. Do you really want to tell me that he should not have been able to have that surgery? Are you really that heartless and stupid?

[bettilimbroke999]

For the record Canadians pay 4.95% for social insurance which is employer matched, which compares as a 3.5% increase from the 1.45% we currently pay for Medicare and the new insurance would for in basically all respects replace private insurance, it wouldnt tell you which doctors you could or couldnt go to in fact it would be more open than your current policy bc what doctor would refuse the govt insurance when it is the only one, he might as well go apply at McD's bc no ones going to go to him and go broke when they could go to any other doctor for free, service fees would be standardized and the doctors would be reimbursed by the system on a per service basis and you could go to any doctor you choose.

Listen for what would amount to a 3.5% tax increase we would have universal health care for every citizen in this country and no one would have to pay for health insurance again, Canada's system proves this to be the case and not only that this system is actually operating with a surplus of funds estimated after investing to reach over a 1.5 trillion by 2050

On top of that the average lifespan in Canada is 2.5 years longer than in US bc Canada's poor receive medical coverage instead of just suffering and dying like we let them in this country, now listen Nina Im not trying to upset you about the quarter mil spent on your 90 yr old gramps to give him an additional 6 months in the nursing home forgetting your name or whatever he did but would that quarter mil not have been better served from an objective standpoint by giving 3 poor Americans health insurance for the next 40 years?

It would save the program a fortune if ppl would get a lil more realistic on lifespans and cost/benefit analysis even at a personal level but even avoiding that and operating under current Medicare procedures which are insane enough to perform 6 figure surgeries on someone in their 90s a 3.5% raise in taxes results in universal health care for all til death, I'd be willing to accept that but somehow you've been brainwashed enough by the conservatives to believe the Canadian system is trash when in reality it really is much better in this instance

[BadNina]

Know what happens when you assume something? My granddad did not live in a nursing home. He had only recently given up mowing his yard but still had a full garden that he tended. We are suppose to have personal freedom in this country. The freedom to not have government all in your life. It's why this country was started in the first place. And I haven't been brainwashed by anyone. I have the capabilities to make my own decisions. I haven't called you a faci

[bettilimbroke999]

We live in a modified free enterprise system my dear, government interference is necessary when it is to protect and benefit society, this is one of the those times imo

Govt is not ruining your life by giving you health insurance at a reasonable cost, why do you keep thinking that Nina? Why do you completely accept socialized health care post 65 as great yet despise it pre 65? What a strange attitude but no doubt you come from a very rural and backwards upbringing, Im surprised you've got internet access

[BadNina]

Now you are making assumptions. I have the capabilities to look at issues and make my own decisions. I think this is a really bad idea all the way around. This country was founded so that the people wouldn't have government telling them what to do. Kinda learned that in elementary school. For the record, my granddad was never in a nursing home. He had a full garden that he tended on his own. He had stopped mowing his yard a few years prior but that was more at the insistence of his children. You had no way of knowing his quality of life. Likewise the people who will making those decisions also won't know. They will look at numbers like you did. That takes away from humanity. I also have heard of waits for tests and procedures from people who have lived in places with governmental health care. They agree that our system, as flawed as it is, is better. I don't want a government that has that much control over my life. I am able to do my own comparisions with other governments throughout history and don't like what I see.

You and I won't agree on this. Isn't that great? We don't have to. You can think I am "brainwashed" and I will think things about you that I will leave unsaid. But in your opening thread, you made a lot of assumptions. And in the title you asked for people's opinions. You really don't want to hear anyone elses unless it agrees with yours. So I am finished.

[bettilimbroke999]

That's right get out of my thread woman

No but seriously think whatever you want I dont care, Im gonna agree with you and eliminate socialized health care altogether so lets get rid of Medicare, lets see how good this private insurance plan of yours really is, why should we give a fuk about all the old decrepit geezers in society but not about the young active productive citizens, I say let the old geezers rot if they cant afford health insurance just like your attitude towards the young productive members that cant afford it

Also there were several mistakes in my opening post to this thread 2 days ago that I have realized since arguing in this thread and researching the topic the first being I said it would double the number of ppl seeking serious medical treatments when clearly it would at worse raise it around 16%, also I mentioned the extensive waits we already must endure to see a doctor being raised and while that is a possibility the wait increases would likely not be very significant given only a 16% insured population increase

[BadNina]

You are being deliberately obtuse so I will post again. Sneaky. I like that.

Did you miss the part where I said that the elderly have earned it?

[bettilimbroke999]

I like the part of your thread that said I will continue to think things about you as well that will be left unsaid , kind of indicating they might be negative

In any event, its interesting that once they've finally earned the right to be healthy time has taken its toll and they're too old and destroyed to enjoy it and will die shortly, me Id like to extend the healthy period throughout their lives so that they might actually get to enjoy their good health for more than their last colostomy comatose years, its a shame that they have to suffer and wallow in miserable health while they're earning that nice colostomy bag future but Im sure your plan is far better than mine

[losturmarbles]

bettill i just skimmed through your nonsense, but i did notice you saying something about medicare or ss tax rates.

currently the fica (medicare and ss) tax is 15.3%. that's 12.4 ss and 2.9 medicare. now if you listen to a politician, he will tell you the fica tax rate is 7.65% and the employee matches 7.65%. that's horseshit and he knows it is. labor cost and tax cost to employ a person are budgeted together.

businesses dont pay taxes. any payroll taxes payed, would have effectually been the employees in a free market. the cost of doing business, including business taxes, is figured into everything you buy. when you buy something at the retail level, you are paying embedded taxes that were levied on that business.

you start adding all these taxes up, fed and state income taxes, embedded taxes, payroll taxes, sales tax, additional taxes on certain items like gas, cigarettes, alcohol, local taxes. well over half of what you produce is owned by the government. probably closer to 2/3 for most of us.

so i guess youre right, a few more percents wont matter much.

[CashMoney]

businesses dont pay taxes. any payroll taxes payed, would have effectually been the employers in a free market. the cost of doing business, including business taxes, is figured into everything you buy. when you buy something at the retail level, you are paying embedded taxes that were levied on that business.

Not sure about the rest of the country but in New York businesses pay tax in the form of "Corporate Income Tax." Only corps used to pay the tax but the state found out that they were losing to much money so they created an non incorporated tax so you pay the tax either way. Pretty much a form of double taxation.

[losturmarbles]

Not sure about the rest of the country but in New York businesses pay tax in the form of "Corporate Income Tax." Only corps used to pay the tax but the state found out that they were losing to much money so they created an non incorporated tax so you pay the tax either way. Pretty much a form of double taxation.

most small businesses pay taxes through the owner's personal income taxes. but new york has a bunch of crazy tax laws. dont they have a city income tax on top of state and fed income taxes?

my point was that even though business pays income taxes, that cost is figured into the price of the item they are selling. so in reality the consumer is paying the tax.

[CashMoney]

most small businesses pay taxes through the owner's personal income taxes. but new york has a bunch of crazy tax laws. dont they have a city income tax on top of state and fed income taxes?

my point was that even though business pays income taxes, that cost is figured into the price of the item they are selling. so in reality the consumer is paying the tax.

Yup you have to pay taxes to the city of NY if you live in NYC and work for a living . Now if you live outside of the 5 boroughs of NYC and work in NYC you don't have to pay the NYC tax.

100% agree with you on the consumer is paying the tax. We get taxed to death in this country. Also agree that if we're already being taxed to death what's the difference if they tax us a little more.

[bettilimbroke999]

Lost think about it we already pay 1.45% (2.9% after matching by employer) for Medicare, why not bump that a lousy 3.5% to the 4.95% (9.9% after employer matching) that the Canadians pay and include social insurance for every citizen of this country for their entire life

Think about it like this, lets say your insurance is a 110 bucks a month which is standard for a healthy 30 yr old (I have no idea how old you are or in what health (older would be more, worse health would be more) but this is pretty much the bare minimum and includes 2500 deductible and copay with no Rx coverage) and your income is 40000/yr, a raise in taxes by 3.5% will deduct 1400 from your paycheck but save you 1320 by eliminating the need for private insurance and you have full coverage (no copay/no deductible) and this is judging the system based on a person close to their healthiest adult age as you know all insurance does is go up every year, its a breakeven or better deal AT WORSE for a healthy 30 yr old and only gets better as you get older and the insurance companies get more and more worried about you getting sick and you've simultaneously helped provide for the 16% of Americans too poor to afford health insurance so you've saved them from wallowing in misery (yes you're a conservative so I know you could care less about anyone but yourself but still occasionally its okay to look at the big picture)

[losturmarbles]

if you really think insuring every citizen is only going to increase your taxes by 1.5%, then youre crazy.

insurance costs a lot more than $110/month. this may be how much is taking out of your check each month for insurance, but your employer is probably paying around $400 on top of that for a 30 year old single male.

[bettilimbroke999]

Well that maybe so but that would just make social insurance an even better deal at only 3.5% increase.

Lost Im not makin this up we pay 1.45% for social insurance past 65, the Canadian pays 4.95% for social insurance from birth til death now that's 3.5% increase, would it be more to do it in America maybe so idk Im just studying their system which is operating at a surplus and with a 2.5 year longer life expectancy

You know Medicare for 65 and over is only 1.45% and that covers the period in which your health insurance would be the highest, it's not really that shocking to me to find out during a much healthier period that a 3.5% raise in taxes could cover a person, Im actually more shocked that 1.45% covers a person from 65 to death than I am that 4.95% covers them from birth to death bc they say something like 70% of your medical expenses occur in the last 20 years of your life, in fact 26% of your lifes medical expenses occur during your last year of life

[reno cool]

eliminate insurance altogether. That alone would save a fortune. If everyone is guaranteed service there would be no need for it. Use that $ for better care. Force the insurance companies into the casino business or make them get real jobs.

[bettilimbroke999]

Welcome to the thread reno, if you like reading ultraconservative fear mongering that shows how the poor being allowed to visit the doctor when they're sick will trigger the end of the world you've come to the right place

Try to imagine a poor person with an ear infection actually being allowed to go to the doctor and receive antibiotics which cures them instantly, frightening thought I know but this country is moving closer and closer to that nightmare becoming a reality

[losturmarbles]

Welcome to the thread reno, if you like reading ultraconservative fear mongering

so now youre an ultraconservative?

guess you havent heard of medicaid huh

btw i dont monger fear, i'm a hate monger.

[bettilimbroke999]

Write a book it worked for Coulter

[paco]

Whoever believes everyone shouldnt have free healthcare is a douchbag

[andywend]

bettillimbroke, the best job you can find for yourself pays $8/hour and that really says it all.

You pay practically no income tax so you'll support any government program no matter how costly or dangerous it may be because you DON'T have to pay for it.

You're sterotyping Nina because she's female while at the same time you only possess the intelligence and skills to gain a minimum wage job.

What our country needs to do, first and foremost, is to figure out a way to keep low income earners like you away from the polls.

The poor should NOT have the right to vote.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To the person who said, "lets try socialized medicine and if it doesn't work, we can just scrap it".

Unfortunately, it wouldn't work that way.

Socialized medicine won't be a disaster right away as it will feed off the excess productive capacity left behind by the private practice system. Once all of these excesses are eroded by socialized medicine, then you will begin to see a serious reduction in the quality of medical care.

At that point, there will be cries from at least 90% of U.S. citizens to bring back the old system but it will take years to rebuild the productive capacity that the socialized system eroded.

[reno cool]

Yes, B should consider opening up an insurance, billing, collection or public relations company. Anyone who makes their living of the misfortune of others surely makes more than $8 an hour.

[DwightShrute]

Fact: Government are fiscally irresponsible. Always have been , always will be
Fact: There is enough money to provide health care for everyone.
Fact: Income tax was a temporary measure enacted to pay for the war
Fact: Government work for US. they are our employees and should never have a better medical plan that the average Joe. Whatever health plan they have, everyone should have access to. Really, who do the f\*\*k do they think they are?
Fact: Let them keep spending your tax dollars without opposition and accountability, you're foolish, naive and a sheep. Obaaaaaaaaama is counting on it.
Fact: If you really think Obama and his tax cheat finance ****er, Nancy Pelosi and all the others he has hired to help set his socialist ideals are doing a great, good or even adequate job so far, then you are only kidding yourself and frankly somewhat of a moron.
Fact:Don't turn your back on bears, men you have wronged or the dominant Turkey during mating season.

[bettilimbroke999]

bettillimbroke, the best job you can find for yourself pays $8/hour and that really says it all.

Who cares, send me a fukin fat check then if you're so worried about how much money I make

You pay practically no income tax so you'll support any government program no matter how costly or dangerous it may be because you DON'T have to pay for it.

Then be poor andy, once again send me the fat check and then you can get out of paying taxes and Ill have to pay them which will solve all your tax problems, even so Ill support allowing any sick US citizen to see a doctor regardless of how fat their bank account is rather than just wail in pain as their illness progresses

You're sterotyping Nina because she's female while at the same time you only possess the intelligence and skills to gain a minimum wage job.

Nina is a woman and Im slightly sexist, hey we all have flaws, once again knocking someone with a low paying job even as 10% of the workforce has no job at all

What our country needs to do, first and foremost, is to figure out a way to keep low income earners like you away from the polls.

The poor should NOT have the right to vote.

Yes we need more ppl like you to vote GWB clones into office, the last 8 years were heaven on earth
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To the person who said, "lets try socialized medicine and if it doesn't work, we can just scrap it".

Unfortunately, it wouldn't work that way.

Socialized medicine won't be a disaster right away as it will feed off the excess productive capacity left behind by the private practice system. Once all of these excesses are eroded by socialized medicine, then you will begin to see a serious reduction in the quality of medical care.

Why? Bc doctors will just get wasted and give up if they're asked to treat a poor person. We already have social insurance for basically every citizen over 65 or under 21 why would extending it to those between 21-65 cause physicians to quit their extremely high paying jobs and manage McDs instead?

At that point, there will be cries from at least 90% of U.S. citizens to bring back the old system but it will take years to rebuild the productive capacity that the socialized system eroded.

The Canadians first started social insurance in 1966 and the program was fully adopted in 1984, it is a widely popular program and a defining characteristic of Canada with approx 99% of physicians services being paid for by the program.

Andy doctors will still do exactly what they've been doing and will be paid by the program, we already have a program (Medicare) which covers by far the most expensive health care period in a person's life between 65-death, how many 65 yr olds and up do you see screaming to go back to private insurance?

[losturmarbles]

Whoever believes everyone shouldnt have free healthcare is a douchbag

kanye is calling other people douchbags. lol classic.

free health care for everyone? brilliant idea!

we should have free food too.

and free housing! how bout free utilities?



what?... no?

ya fukin douchbag.

[Leverage]

I don't understand the nationalism on this thread. Why should I care where my or your parents fvcked?

[bettilimbroke999]

I am collecting donations for Bill Gates, he had to pay 25 billion in taxes and now has to scrape by on only the 50 billion he has left while homeless ppl enjoyed sidewalks to sleep on paid for entirely by taxes and paid no taxes at all. It is criminal for the government to steal from Bill Gates while the lazy homeless kick back and relax on brand new sidewalks while gorging themselves at the local soup kitchen and discussing how good they've got it as poor Bill is flown by helicopter to one of his yachts and tries to hide the pain

Save Bill Gates!

This ad paid for by the the losturmarbles foundation for the ethical treatment of billionaires