[CanuckG]

Hey Canuck, how old were you when that happened? -6?

Probably but not surprised people cried over it

[shari91]

Because of Ben Johnson?

Yeah they were devastated. We had a big party at our house the night of the race and I played bartender. Our neighbours were setting off fireworks when he won. Canada winning the 100m gold is unheard of even now but to beat Carl Lewis??? And doping of any kind was pretty limited back in 1988. Now we're not too surprised obviously. It was very embarrassing for Canadians. It's almost not part of our moral fiber to cheat. Horrible horrible time.

[wantitall4moi]

He got around the tests because they never had a CLEAN sample. All those sophisticated tests they do rely on a comparison. If the comparison sample is already tainted then therefore it will make all the other samples moot.

That is how all these guys get away with it. Most of these people are doping or taking shit in their teens before anyone ever tests any blood. So they then get a baseline and keep their doping within those parameters.

it isnt like these tests are hard to beat when you do that.

Only people that get caught now are people who never did anything and try to cycle on and off without getting caught. Most people never cycle off they just cycle down slightly to stay close to their already tainted base levels.

[No coincidences]

Yeah...who the fukk cries like a bitch over a sports moment?

Oh...wait...never mind.

[MatI]

The ex-teammates and whatever I don't put much faith in. That article you linked to said many of them got sweetheart deals of their own so I'm just going to ignore them.

Criminals take plea bargains all the time for a lighter sentence so police/feds can catch the 'big fish'. No different in this case and I believe they will still have to accept a ban for their admissions. (although lighter ban that normal)

And hasn't he been fighting this since '96? Maybe I'd give up after that long too.

I don't know. I'm not emotionally invested in the guy at all so if he's a cheat or not I don't care much other than for those who should've won and reaped those rewards at the time if it turns out he was. It's not like they're going to get endorsements or whatever this long after the fact.

I guess because there's no closure to this one - as in he didn't admit it or we didn't see evidence - that it just feels strange. I like to know facts and everything just seems like speculation and drawing conclusions.

He has been fighting allegations, but only in the last 2 years has the situation got really serious for him as the people who used to surround him have been caught in one way or another.

I do follow cycling closely and I think for most who do this news will be a little 'ho hum'. As you said, it will not really change anything and the sport is still not clean unfortunately.

My own personal theory is that the French organisers and anti doping organisations were probably aware of Armstrong's doping during his career, but didn't want the bad publicity that would come with the dominant champion being a cheat. It took for a non-for-profit American anti-doping agency to get to the bottom of it years later. French still don't want to have anything to do with this.

[ACoochy]

Agreed, if it's a sport its the dirtiest of them.

Sorry pal but that honour will always go to MLB...

[stealthyburrito]

Sorry pal but that honour will always go to MLB...

Ahh, no. It's 2nd but it'll never reach the level of cyclist dopers.

[BuddyBear]

Think about the most important thing in your life that you have ever accomplished (e.g. degree, job, award, etc...). And now imagine if someone tried to take that accomplishment away from you and accused you of cheating to get it. Would you just "get tired" of trying to prove your innocence after a few years? Most normal people would fight to clear their name till the day they died. The fact that he is "tired" of trying to clear his name is just nonsense on his part. If it was not obvious that he took PEDs in the past, it should be obvious now.

[muldoon]

So how does this work now. Lance has to walk everywhere now? People have to give their cancer back?

[ACoochy]

Ahh, no. It's 2nd but it'll never reach the level of cyclist dopers.

Dude the level of testing in MLB is far less than that of cycling. All that advanced technology there and the sport refuses to implement it, intead sticking their heads in the proverbial sand and pretending like cheating doesnt exist...

Additionally, the sport still has solely human umpires, not even a review system of any kind.

Thats one sport that needs to drag itself into the 21st century...

[CanuckG]

Think about the most important thing in your life that you have ever accomplished (e.g. degree, job, award, etc...). And now imagine if someone tried to take that accomplishment away from you and accused you of cheating to get it. Would you just "get tired" of trying to prove your innocence after a few years? Most normal people would fight to clear their name till the day they died. The fact that he is "tired" of trying to clear his name is just nonsense on his part. If it was not obvious that he took PEDs in the past, it should be obvious now.

He's been fighting for how long and he's been stuck in the same spot for years. It's like arguing against a brick wall he won't win.

[stealthyburrito]

Dude the level of testing in MLB is far less than that of cycling. All that advanced technology there and the sport refuses to implement it, intead sticking their heads in the proverbial sand and pretending like cheating doesnt exist...

Additionally, the sport still has solely human umpires, not even a review system of any kind.

Thats one sport that needs to drag itself into the 21st century...

Coochy we shouldn't be arguing against each other.

In the eyes of the conservatives we are both "libtards".

We shouldn't argue the minute points. At least not here.

I refuse a civil conflict of philosophical ideals.

Truce for now.

[MatI]

Think about the most important thing in your life that you have ever accomplished (e.g. degree, job, award, etc...). And now imagine if someone tried to take that accomplishment away from you and accused you of cheating to get it. Would you just "get tired" of trying to prove your innocence after a few years? Most normal people would fight to clear their name till the day they died. The fact that he is "tired" of trying to clear his name is just nonsense on his part. If it was not obvious that he took PEDs in the past, it should be obvious now.

Exactly. If Lance really thought the evidence was flimsy he would continue to fight. In fact, he was fighting it in court and his arguments were thrown out. He was out of options.

And the way he has finished it off today means no actual arbitration proceedings will go ahead and the evidence will most likely never be known publicly.

[ACoochy]

Coochy we shouldn't be arguing against each other.

In the eyes of the conservatives we are both "libtards".

We shouldn't argue the minute points. At least not here.

I refuse a civil conflict of philosophical ideals.

Truce for now.

No arguing pal, just having a healthy debate.

Agree. Lets leave the constrictive ideology to the conservative nut huggers amongst the board and enjoy the benefits of a broader mind...

[stealthyburrito]

No arguing pal, just having a healthy debate.

Agree. Lets leave the constrictive ideology to the conservative nut huggers amongst the board and enjoy the benefits of a broader mind...

Internal debate makes us grow as a species...

Let's keep it to a minimum...for now.

"Broader mind" means to me a progressive lifestyle that's hard to accept.

[shari91]

Exactly. If Lance really thought the evidence was flimsy he would continue to fight. In fact, he was fighting it in court and his arguments were thrown out. He was out of options.

And the way he has finished it off today means no actual arbitration proceedings will go ahead and the evidence will most likely never be known publicly.

I don't know. I've been in court for like what, a year now? The thought of it stretching to 17 is enough to make me puke. And then to hit 17 and be told it's still not over... sometimes you just get tired. He could prove everything tomorrow and people will still doubt him as they always have. He could go to court and be found guilty of doping but nothing will really change... his diehard believers won't care. So what's the point after this long? Just seems like such a long time to argue when life is so short which obviously he understands better than some of us due to his cancer.

I'm going to officially reserve judgement. I had a great time watching him race and I loved his comeback even more. Everything else I'm staying Swissy until I see evidence either way

[mrobertsnz]

sad, he has done good outside the sport.

[HoulihansTX]

NFL is dirtier than any other American sport. NFL has no blood testing, which is the only way to test for hgh, and other advanced ped's.

NFL players have the most to gain in a practical sense, than any other type of pro athlete. To think NFL players do not use hgh would be irresponsible .

[EVPlus]

When he was dominating the Tour de France, his team included:

Floyd Landis - admitted doper.

Tyler Hamilton - admitted doper.

Frankie Andreau - admitted doper.

Heras (don't recall his first name) - caught doper.

Armstrong was a control freak to the extent that he popularized weighing food to the exact ounce. His team mechanics called him "Mr. Milimeter" because if a saddle height was off by just a fraction of an inch, he'd know about it. He was often known to carry a carpenter's level to make sure his saddle was exactly parallel the to ground. He had his head mechanic "age" his racing tires in a cellar because the old school tires actually gripped better as the rubber aged.

The team traveled together in a bus and sleep at the same hotel. Are you telling me that he wouldn't have known if other guys on the team were sticking needles up their a55es?

You can argue that he simply looked the other way while he himself stayed clean. However, former members of his team have sworn statements that he and Bruyneel (the equivalent of the manager in baseball) not only condoned it but enforced the use of "oil" (they called it oil because the infamous Dr Michele Ferrari mixed testosterone with olive oil to try and fool the authorities). Frankie Andreu's wife also has a sworn statement that she heard Armstrong confess to the doctor that he took anabolic steroids. Armstrong's former soigneur (an assistant that top level cyclists employ during races) has a sworn statement he she saw him performing blood transfusion for EPO (this was the drug of choice back then due it it's ability to increase blood cell count).

All these were conveniently swept away because Saint Lance and his cancer foundation was so well-received by the public.

His early mentor was Eddie Merx, who most consider to be the greatest cyclist ever. By the way, Eddie was a caught doper (amphetamines was the drug of choice back then) but got off due to politics. It turned out he was too famous to be banned from the Tour.

Armstrong's two greatest rivals were Marco Pantani and Jan Ulrich.

Pantani was a caught doper who later committed suicide.

Ulrich was a caught doper who left the Pro Tour under disgrace. His team manager was a former winner of the Tour de France and a confessed doper.

Both riders, by Armstrong's own admission, had better genetics for winning the Grand Tours (such as the Giro d'Italia and Le Tour de France). Both riders had superbly well-equipped teams.

In his later Tours, his biggest rival was an Italian Ivan Basso - a caught doper.

So you're telling me that a clean rider can beat genetic freaks over the course of three weeks and thousands of miles...?

Are you fukking kidding me...?

And, yes, Armstrong was busted in the past but exonerated on a technicality.

When he tried his comeback under extremely tight testing protocols, he was nowhere near the rider he used to be. You can blame it on his age if you so choose.

It's one thing to presume innocence until guilt is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's another to turn a blind eye to a confluence of overwhelming circumstantial evidence. OJ was exonerated for the infamous murders. So he, too, must be innocent, right...? Dirty scum get away in the court of law all the time.

[MatI]

I don't know. I've been in court for like what, a year now? The thought of it stretching to 17 is enough to make me puke. And then to hit 17 and be told it's still not over... sometimes you just get tired. He could prove everything tomorrow and people will still doubt him as they always have. He could go to court and be found guilty of doping but nothing will really change... his diehard believers won't care. So what's the point after this long? Just seems like such a long time to argue when life is so short which obviously he understands better than some of us due to his cancer.

I'm going to officially reserve judgement. I had a great time watching him race and I loved his comeback even more. Everything else I'm staying Swissy until I see evidence either way

I'm not sure what you are in court for, but I think if it was something as important as defending yourself against something you were innocent of then you would not give up lightly. Armstrong would certainly not need to worry about going broke defending himself. I'd imagine he has deeper pockets than the USADA!

He has by no means been fighting this in court for 17 years. There have been allegations since the early 2000s but it has stayed out of the courts until 2011. (Except for when he was sued by a sponsor in mid 2000s).

He could go to court and be found innocent, but he actually seems keen to stay OUT of the courts. I wonder why?

I have always been a fan and still am, and I have always wanted to believe he was clean in an often un-clean sport. But the more information that comes to light, the more this seems unlikely, IMO.

[MatI]

Heras (don't recall his first name) - caught doper.

Roberto

[Nittany Lion]

I don't know. I've been in court for like what, a year now?

You've been in court for a year now? Details? Going through a divorce or something? My mother just finished going through a divorce, father was an asshole and fought on everything even though they've been married for 32 years. Final cost for her was right around $29,000 for all the lawyer fees....what a scam lawyers are. Every time she sent an e-mail to him about anything it was automatically $50.

[shari91]

You've been in court for a year now? Details? Going through a divorce or something? My mother just finished going through a divorce, father was an asshole and fought on everything even though they've been married for 32 years. Final cost for her was right around $29,000 for all the lawyer fees....what a scam lawyers are. Every time she sent an e-mail to him about anything it was automatically $50.

Trying to leave Australia with my child. If I could get away with $50 an email I'd feel like I won Powerball.

Sad thing is my dad was a lawyer. Corporate but still. This whole thing really makes me question the whole profession. Just seems like one big money grab to the point of our lawyers discouraging us from talking directly even about important things about our child. Instead they want letters drafted and affadavits, etc. Boom = hundreds of dollars for both of us. Whereas if we talked to each other directly it'd be a 2 min phone call and maybe a text msg. All sorted.

[PickWinnerAllDay]

Trying to leave Australia with my child. If I could get away with $50 an email I'd feel like I won Powerball.

Sad thing is my dad was a lawyer. Corporate but still. This whole thing really makes me question the whole profession. Just seems like one big money grab to the point of our lawyers discouraging us from talking directly even about important things about our child. Instead they want letters drafted and affadavits, etc. Boom = hundreds of dollars for both of us. Whereas if we talked to each other directly it'd be a 2 min phone call and maybe a text msg. All sorted.

Sounds like you guys have not always been amicable in the past. If you've grown up since that time (or him or both)...

But anyway, as for the Lance Armstrong thing... the roids cancel out the cancer. He's a winner in my book.

[PickWinnerAllDay]

[SteelRain]

But anyway, as for the Lance Armstrong thing... the roids cancel out the cancer. He's a winner in my book.

you do know that cancer is a risk associated with taking steroids right?

[PickWinnerAllDay]

you do know that cancer is a risk associated with taking steroids right?

What doesn't cause cancer? If you're contending he took steroids so he deserved cancer then have at it sport.

[SteelRain]

What doesn't cause cancer? If you're contending he took steroids so he deserved cancer then have at it sport.

not saying that

but remember when you cycle on and off riods your balls shrivel and return back to normal size respectively

guy has been doing that for decades, treating his balls like they were jewish partly balloons

[PickWinnerAllDay]

not saying that

but remember when you cycle on and off riods your balls shrivel and return back to normal size respectively

guy has been doing that for decades, treating his balls like they were jewish partly balloons

Not a medical genius, but would steroids cause brain and lung cancer as well?

[SteelRain]

Not a medical genius, but would steroids cause brain and lung cancer as well?

steroids use causes an increased risk in all type of cancers because steroids are immunosuppressants (impairs the immune system)

so when you get cancer, the first line of defense in your body is your immune system which attacks and kills any rouge cells that get out of control. sometimes cancer cells develop ways to fool your immune system into thinking cancer cells are normal cells but most times your immune system does a pretty decent job at catching and killing cancer cells before they get out of control.

[PickWinnerAllDay]

steroids use causes an increased risk in all type of cancers because steroids are immunosuppressants (impairs the immune system)

so when you get cancer, the first line of defense in your body is your immune system which attacks and kills any rouge cells that get out of control. sometimes cancer cells develop ways to fool your immune system into thinking cancer cells are normal cells and but most times your immune system does a pretty decent job at catching and killing cancer cells before they get out of control.

Yeah, I was just curious. That makes sense, and about what I would hear on house. haha

I had to take steroids for a couple of weeks. I guess to answer your first response, do you know that Lance was on roids his entire career or maybe he just started when trying to get back from chemo?

[Naz18]

Guy passed all the tests yet we always think he's a cheater.

Roger Clemens never failed a test either...

[ttwarrior1]

ev plus, send that to espn, goodstuff

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Revisionist history. He won 7x. F all.

[CanuckG]

Roger Clemens never failed a test either...

The verdict from his second trial came in on June 18, 2012. Clemens was found not guilty on all six counts of lying to Congress in 2008, when he testified that he never took performance-enhancing drugs.^[7]