[ChuckyTheGoat]

That's an awesome clip

[CanuckG]

So because a bunch of people accuse an athlete of something that means it's automatically true

[hawley]

Just got home and will start working my way through all the news now but can someone clear this up for me..

Armstrong is giving up the battle to defend himself and therefore he will be stripped of his titles and banned for life?

We are now putting the onus on athletes to prove they are innocent?


I can see how the weight of all evidence suggests he is a clear cheat but seriously the guy is going to be stripped of everything because he can no longer, for whatever reason, defend himself?

[19th Hole]

Not a medical genius, but would steroids cause brain and lung cancer as well?

Lyle Alzado

[baskets]

simple issue

Clemens Armstrong Sosa etc etc

all cheaters

who cares


if u aint cheating u aint trying

only Obama voters are naive enuff to fall for this shit

[19th Hole]

http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/vie...ourceID=002366

Interesting timeline.

[PickWinnerAllDay]

That's an awesome clip

Dodgeball is great. Whole movie just makes me crack up. Especially the announcer's comments for the dodgeball games.

[19th Hole]

simple issue



if u aint cheating u aint trying

only Obama voters are naive enuff to fall for this shit

Nah...That would be your simple-minded facists and racists.

[shari91]

Just got home and will start working my way through all the news now but can someone clear this up for me..

Armstrong is giving up the battle to defend himself and therefore he will be stripped of his titles and banned for life?

We are now putting the onus on athletes to prove they are innocent?


I can see how the weight of all evidence suggests he is a clear cheat but seriously the guy is going to be stripped of everything because he can no longer, for whatever reason, defend himself?

That was my point. At what time in our society did we decide that when it comes to cases like this it's guilty until proven innocent? There must've been one case involving an athlete that started to shift our perception because it didn't use to be like this. But I'm not enough of a sports history buff to pinpoint what it was. If he's guilty, show us the bloody evidence! If not, we can't judge the guy for making a decision not to continue fighting. It all smells off to me. I'm all for bashing cheats in sports because it robs clean people of what they deserved... but I can't get behind it when no one has shown me he's a cheater yet.

[boeing power]

I don't care if he cheated or not.

He's an ass.

But he's done so much for cancer that he gets a pass from me.

[hawley]

That was my point. At what time in our society did we decide that when it comes to cases like this it's guilty until proven innocent? There must've been one case involving an athlete that started to shift our perception because it didn't use to be like this. But I'm not enough of a sports history buff to pinpoint what it was. If he's guilty, show us the bloody evidence! If not, we can't judge the guy for making a decision not to continue fighting. It all smells off to me. I'm all for bashing cheats in sports because it robs clean people of what they deserved... but I can't get behind it when no one has shown me he's a cheater yet.

Cheaters are scum and deserve full punishment...But only when they are proven.

How is someone to prove their innocence when they have never failed a drug test? Is that not sufficient.

If he is a drug cheat then prove it or leave him alone. Prove it with real evidence too, not with teammates testifying against him.



I'm not defending him as such, but the process by which this seems to have occurred seems almost backwards.

[SteelRain]

Yeah, I was just curious. That makes sense, and about what I would hear on house. haha

I had to take steroids for a couple of weeks. I guess to answer your first response, do you know that Lance was on roids his entire career or maybe he just started when trying to get back from chemo?

pretty sure he's been jucing all his life cuz

1. Steroid testing is light years behind. Thats why they save blood samples and test years later.

2. But it really comes down to game theory. You could not cheat and reduce your probability of making it in the big leagues or you could cheat and vastly increase your probability of making it big. risks being; not cheating= losing out in millions or cheat = making millions but getting caught (maybe). don't know about you but I would cheat and so would most people.

If you want to learn more on the economics of sports and steroids here are a few links:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=CkOA...%20use&f=false

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...doping-dilemma

http://apurvadesai.com/2009/02/25/st...d-game-theory/

most of not all professional athletes do in face juice imo, the economics of it demands it.

[hawley]

How is it possible for Armstrong to defend himself beyond point towards every clean drug test he has ever taken?


And a second question which someone may be able to answer....Who the fukk is the USADA to strip him of his TDF titles?

[ACoochy]

USADA

[hawley]

USADA

Does their jurisdiction seriously extend to stripping an athlete of a title gained in another country? Surely not...

[ProfitBettingSov]

Al those who work for USADA cann go die a painful death. A gifted athlete stripped of his title becaseu he doesn;t want to fight the decision anymore

It's the same as shagging your sister and mother since no-one told you it was wrong

[shari91]

No seriously, who is this USADA?

Here are some more facts about this whoreshit.

Armstrong said his decision did not mean he would accept USADA's sanctions. His lawyers threatened a lawsuit if USADA proceeded, arguing the agency must first resolve a dispute with the International Cycling Union over whether the case should be pursued.

On Monday, a federal judge dismissed Armstrong's lawsuit against USADA and said the agency can rightfully claim jurisdiction over the cyclist's case. That led to a deadline late Thursday when Lance was forced to decide whether to continue fighting USADA's charges that he used banned drugs and blood transfusions to gain an edge. If he decided to fight, he would have had to do so in the arbitration process, which he called a "kangaroo court." USADA's record in arbitration against the accused is 58-2.

Judge Sam Sparks also rejected Armstrong's claim that the arbitration process was biased, ruling that the cyclist must seek victory there before asking a court to intervene, as Armstrong agreed to do in applying for cycling licenses. Sparks did raise several issues of fairness in USADA's vague charging letter, but said those issues could be argued as part of the arbitration.

Armstrong declined, saying, "I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided and unfair" and said USADA has "zero physical evidence" to support its "outlandish and heinous claims."

Instead, Armstrong attorney Tim Herman fired a letter off to USADA Thursday that suggested Armstrong would sue if USADA moves to sanction him. "You are on notice that if USADA makes any public statement claiming, without jurisdiction, to sanction Mr. Armstrong, or to falsely characterize Mr. Armstrong's reasons for not requesting an arbitration as anything other than a recognition of (International Cycling Union) jurisdiction and authority, USADA and anyone involved in the making of the statement will be liable," Herman wrote.

By declining to go to arbitration, Armstrong and his legal team sent the message that he no longer wants to participate in a fight he doesn't consider fair. After years of rumors and accusations of cheating, many people already had made up their mind about him - a point that wasn't lost on Armstrong.

[shari91]

What I posted above is not the same as a guy just 'giving up'. He's going to sue the fukk out of them if they try to sanction him and he doesn't want to get involved in a process where the results have been 58-2 for the USADA. He feels it's unfair and he doesn't stand a chance.

I'm starting to think this guy is getting railroaded a bit.

[nic9212]

So long tour de lance...

[tony_come]

Every fukks cheats

didnt you?

Fukk em' and we wll know

thats why we're here sbrforum

[Goat Milk]

Shari I'm sitting here now with a friend discussing this. I've been defending Armstrong because I'm drunk obviously but now that I read your posts and his quotes it honestly seems like he's manipulatively defending himself. His quotes feel like he is hiding something.

He is getting way too defensive right off the bat. But I don't know the whole story. I'm not saying he's done anyting, but htiuths is fishy.

[MatI]

How is it possible for Armstrong to defend himself beyond point towards every clean drug test he has ever taken?

And a second question which someone may be able to answer....Who the fukk is the USADA to strip him of his TDF titles?

There has been a tug of war over this between UCI & USADA.

USADA believe they can make this decision due to being an arm of the WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency). UCI say it is their decision alone, while WADA has sided with USADA.

Im my opinion, UCI are about as trustworthy as FIFA. They benefited from Armstrong's success as the popularity of cycling grew along with his wins. It was not in UCI's interests to see Armstrong test positive.

The media is wrong to announce the news today the way they have. Armstrong has not been banned or stripped of anything - yet. And Armstrong has done a fantastic job of characterising himself as a martyr before he as even been sentenced to death.

[Goat Milk]

There has been a tug of war over this between UCI & USADA.

USADA believe they can make this decision due to being an arm of the WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency). UCI say it is their decision alone, while WADA has sided with USADA.

Im my opinion, UCI are about as trustworthy as FIFA. They benefited from Armstrong's success as the popularity of cycling grew along with his wins. It was not in UCI's interests to see Armstrong test positive.

The media is wrong to announce the news today the way they have. Armstrong has not been banned or stripped of anything - yet. And Armstrong has done a fantastic job of characterising himself as a martyr before he as even been sentenced to death.

Doesn't that make you suspicious? too defensive

[goduke]

What I posted above is not the same as a guy just 'giving up'. He's going to sue the fukk out of them if they try to sanction him and he doesn't want to get involved in a process where the results have been 58-2 for the USADA. He feels it's unfair and he doesn't stand a chance.

I'm starting to think this guy is getting railroaded a bit.

Hes absolutely getting railroaded. Thank you for putting facts into this thread and not just having baseless comments like some. Its sick how many people just want to say hes guilty because he wants to be done fighting. Imagine fighting something for 17 years? Its disgusting, I wouldnt be able to last 2 years. Theres no win for him no matter what. If he was never found guilty people would still think he cheated or there would still be people out there trying to bring him down inorder to make a name for themselves. It seems like we are in a world now where the goal is to defame anyone that does anything successful. Sounds real great.

[hawley]

On the other hand if Armstrong rolled over and conceded without defending himself would it be seen as ultimately admitting to drug use?

[Goat Milk]

Hawley read his comments. He is clearly getting dfensive. whether that is just agitation I don't know. But it seems like he was almost expecting this and by his intuitive comments, seemed prepared for it.

[Goat Milk]

as if his this testimony was already calibrated

forgie v me i am playing the villain as i am drunk

[hawley]

Hawley read his comments. He is clearly getting dfensive. whether that is just agitation I don't know. But it seems like he was almost expecting this and by his intuitive comments, seemed prepared for it.

Yea I see him defending himself. I wonder if it is just an automatic response after being questioned so many times.

[MatI]

Doesn't that make you suspicious? too defensive

Very.

[MatI]

Hawley read his comments. He is clearly getting dfensive. whether that is just agitation I don't know. But it seems like he was almost expecting this and by his intuitive comments, seemed prepared for it.

His comments were very well prepared and only came after his injunction against the USADA failed.

He does not want this to go to a public arbitration.

[EVPlus]

Armstrong has a small army of lawyers and public relations people to spin and defend his reputation to the death. I do agree the overall tone of his rebuttal is overly defensive to point of raising suspicion.

As for the argument that it's wrong to presume anyone is guilty first and must prove his innocence, those folks clearly do not know the history of cycling. Furthermore, they don't know the sheer difficulty involved in racing over a hundred miles a day for 21 days (with only two rest days thrown in).

To put it into perspective, for a clean Armstrong to have beaten the likes of known dopers like Pantani and Ulrich not just once but 7 consecutive times would be the greatest achievement in modern day sports.

Sorry - but his physiology, though exceptional, wasn't that much better than his arch rivals. And cycling performance is easy to predict in terms of wattage generated by peddaling. Again, Armstrong was exceptional but not so far and beyond those of his main rivals. If one actually studies cycling, sports performance, and perhaps even raced himself, he would clearly see just how difficult it would be for any clean rider to beat genetically blessed men who also happened to be chemically enhanced.

Now add the circumstantial evidence I presented earlier and an objective individual has no choice but to be skeptical regarding Armstrong's innocence.

[milwaukee mike]

come on shari

armstrong cheated

floyd landis admitted to doping ONLY so he could testify against armstrong

armstrong failed a drug test in 2002 and paid off a uci official

sworn testimony from a reputable source that had no benefit to narc'ing lance armstrong is pretty good proof

not defending yourself is something of an admission of guilt

[wantitall4moi]

As for why he 'quit' defending himself and what this body can do to him.

These charge were brought because more and more of his team mates have come forward and decided to testify in an OFFICIAL hearing/trial. This is something completely different than what he has faced from France and the other guys trying to prove him dirty.

He has defended his reputation only basically for years. The one time when he actually might lose something (his titles, his accolades, any chance to ever work in ANY sport USADA governs) he gives up.

I imagine he figured there was more than enough evidence or circumstantial evidence to 'convict' him. So he just decided to throw himself on the mercy of the court.

Since it isnt a criminal trial or probably even akin to a civil one it still has some sort of evidenciary balance. Meaning the court has to have more (what extent I do not know) 'evidence' AGAINST him than for him.

The timing of all this and the stakes of all this makes me think he figured they found a smoking gun. Maybe he made a deal that if he stepped aside and stopped fighting they wouldnt release this information and it could still go on as some sort of mystery. He basically put a gag on himself as well, which was probably part of the deal. Because they wouldnt NOT bury the guy if he could continue to claim they had nothing on him.

So I think it went down like this....

Committee: We have this what do you have to say?
LA: Not mine keep telling you that
Committee: well we have this video tape also
LA: what where did you get...umm OK now what?
Committee: youre done only question is how bad it gets
LA: OK I will stop fighting charges never ever speak of it again just dont release this
Committee: OK but if you ever try to defend yourself or deny anything again we will give full disclosure
LA (to himself): well it wont change anything at least some people will still think I didnt do anything as long as this doesnt come out
LA(to committee): deal

[stealthyburrito]

A lot of hopeless romantics in this thread. I'm sure that many who think his wins were clean also believe Barry Bonds is the true single season and career home run king.

Guy gets testicular cancer spreads to many of his vital organs survives that shit and 2 years later he wins one of the most taxing physical events on the human body.

Even with PEDs that's incredible. Without them its impossible.

[MatI]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/lance-a...nnocence-.html


Also Velonation has an interview saying evidence against Lance will be shown in due course.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12...#ixzz24Smw9KQs