[PayUpSukka]

[UV82]

They will A. Try to not pay you, B. Take you to the backroom and ask you how you are doing it, C. Inform the cops that you are a cheater and take your winning. D. You will then have to take them to court. E. If you win they will pay you, but bar your from gambling there again.

And this is base on the U.S. casino.

Something offshore like this, think they going to bend over and let you hammer them?

I was not referring to mafia style legal system, I was referring to a more civilized one.

[Thremp]

lol at the card counting analogy, lol tards

[robertg]

Pay him. Online casinos are RIGGED. DGS is a RIGGED software. Why do you guys think 95% of the major sportsbooks use it? Why have sportsbooks that switched from it eventually returned to it? It's because it brings a HUGE profit.

Pay him. WSex is CHEATING all other players by not using a truly RANDOM generator. Isn't that the REAL problem?

very sharp post!

[bettilimbroke999]

So WSEX admits their casino software is completely rigged and they've been robbing their players, but a player figured out how rigged it was and won so they confiscated his balance bc HE cheated

[BigdaddyQH]

They will A. Try to not pay you, B. Take you to the backroom and ask you how you are doing it, C. Inform the cops that you are a cheater and take your winning. D. You will then have to take them to court. E. If you win they will pay you, but bar your from gambling there again.

And this is base on the U.S. casino.

Something offshore like this, think they going to bend over and let you hammer them?

Your lack of knowledge as to how Vegas works is totally amazing. You obviously watch too much T.V. They do not inform the police. What for? If they think you are a cheat, they simply press charges. If not, they 86 you from the casino. They do not take you into a "back room" per se. They can watch the tapes and figure out how you are doing it, just like this idiot got caught. Bad pub is Vegas would cost a casino a lot more money than a few thousand dollars.

Try suing out of country and see what you get. The costs woulld be prohibitive, especially when we are talking a small amount of money like this. When you play off shore, you have to expect this to happen. They are going to cut you off every time possible because off shore books do not have a lot of capital. You are totally at their mercy. I know some people in the off shore business and their attitude is quite simple. If you do not agree with us, screw you. Come get us.

[BillyCostigan]

I found a way to "beat" an online casino once. WagerPoint was the name of the site, it's been out of business for a long time though. There was a glitch in the blackjack that allowed you to logout mid-hand and have that wager refunded to your account, and your bet voided.

I.E.--If I have 20 vs an 8, I stay in and finish the hand. If I have 16 vs a face, I log out and get my money back.

I was an idiot and tried winning a ridiculous sum of cash in a single day, so of course they figured out. Regardless, they paid me $3,000 for explaining the system.

WSex is a much larger book, and this problem deals with the random generator, not some clear glitch in the system like I found. They either pay this guy his winnings or pay back all who have lost money in a non-random casino. I'm guessing if those were their only options, they'd take the first.

[bettilimbroke999]

Doesn't even make sense to rig a casino, fuk its already rigged naturally wtf they need to double rig it?

If its non-random then either pay back all the losers you robbed or pay all the winners, robbin the losers AND the winners aint gonna work, SBR should have downgraded WSEX to F- months ago anyway, fukin Cascade wannabes

A few more scams like WSEX, Cascade, Bodog Live, Absolute Poker, Ultimatebet etc and Ill start agreein with the guys takin shots at the books, hell if they're gonna take shots at you u might as well return the favor, sites like these severely damage the entire industry not just the players they rob, bc they provide justification for all the shottakers out there

Next time somebody loses at an online casino if he's read this thread what do u think hes gonna think, fuk I got robbed by that non-random scam casino, hell the winners get their funds confiscated anyway, I oughta just charge back

[Smurf71]

This guy should be paid on general principle! First of all, casino can not blame player in winning and say- " oops, our system did not work properly , so we confiscate your winnings now" That is bogus! Casino should pay the man and fix his RNG after that. First look in a mirror , then start to blame customer. Player would always try beat casino with his brain power , that is his goal. He did not hack into system and sabotage it. He played against it and beat it cause system did not function . That's it! Who's fault is that? When book made mess , it should not point finger towards customer. It simply is BS!

[frankthetank]

would be nice if wsex paid something on this for screwing up. then they should take it out of the programmers salary. but if i were the player i would pretty much expect them to confiscate the winnings.. thats just me. but wsex sucks these days. they really went down hill..

[Thremp]

I'm pretty sure just about every person who has commented in this thread has said something mind blowingly stupid in either comparison or in the lol assumption that WSEX should refund every loser.

[JohnAnthony]

I found a way to "beat" an online casino once. WagerPoint was the name of the site, it's been out of business for a long time though. There was a glitch in the blackjack that allowed you to logout mid-hand and have that wager refunded to your account, and your bet voided. I.E.--If I have 20 vs an 8, I stay in and finish the hand. If I have 16 vs a face, I log out and get my money back. I was an idiot and tried winning a ridiculous sum of cash in a single day, so of course they figured out. Regardless, they paid me $3,000 for explaining the system. WSex is a much larger book, and this problem deals with the random generator, not some clear glitch in the system like I found. They either pay this guy his winnings or pay back all who have lost money in a non-random casino. I'm guessing if those were their only options, they'd take the first.

I feel this is what WSEX should do, if not pay the whole sum. When a player exploits a bug/pattern, he is either to be paid for as long as the books doesn't find out, or be given a good percentage of the winnings for explaining this to the book.

If people didn't jizz their pants each time they found something like this, I imagine this would a lot more profitable. I would probably just play randomly, losing sometimes on purpose, winning sometimes with the exploit - I mean even +$1 at the end of the MONTH is huge with BJ and the way these books manipulate it.

[trixtrix]

another concern here is that wsex hasn't even figured out HOW the player did it, all they did was perform an audit on the acct and say statistics did not support this (where have we seen this before.. heroes anyone?) this runs contrary to legal principle of usa, where you're presumed innocent UNTIL PROVEN guilty.

the player should be paid

[Champi]

I won 20K from BetFair Casino on BlackJack and they paid me.
When i play in licensed site i suppose that the software is OK and is random.
WSEX should give bonus to this player not only the winnings

[bettilimbroke999]

Anyone who supports WSEXs decision should have to meet a 5x rollover of their bankroll in the WSEX casino, if they lose they lose if they win their winnings are confiscated

Another problem is that WSEX stopped paying out long ago so hard to believe this guy has any hope of getting paid

[Bill Dozer]

My initial opinion after talking to Justin was WSEX owes the player. He didn't cheat; the game wasn't malfunctioning (as in paying 4-1 on BJ); and WSEX was earning $ from the same game that they should be reviewing. After hearing more opinions around the office I changed my personal opinion. The player's funds weren't at risk. He wasn't gambling. Had it been roulette where a sequence played out every 50 spins and the player won millions betting 1 dollar bets and then $500, what would we say? Where do you draw the line?

The whole thing looks pretty bad for WSEX and it could have cost them a lot more too. The player could have told 5 friends and jotted down a wagering pattern that wasn't obvious. The player was trying to take advantage but I wouldn't call him a scammer. Maybe he thought 14k was the price the book would pay for the lesson.

In the end it's your opinion to make. SBR just reported what happened.

[tomcowley]

The problem is that the software was working exactly as intended. There's no such thing as a truly random software algorithm. People who actually care about these kinds of things (say, pokerstars) use environmental sources of randomness (anything from lag time to radioactive decay) to keep real randomness in the numbers. If a player could tell when slots were going to jackpot soon, and played them then, he'd get paid. If he shuffle-tracked well, he'd get paid.

WSEX presumably used a RNG with no environmental randomness and a repeating period low enough to be determined. in practical terms, the result of that algorithm is the equivalent of somebody flipping a shitton of coins, writing down H/T for each result, and sending that file to WSEX. Then WSEX just goes through that file, in order, to make random numbers.. but when it comes to the end, it just goes back to the beginning and repeats. WSEX doesn't generate any NEW random numbers- they just repeat that same file over and over. So if somebody sits there long enough, they can determine the entire file. And if they play long enough, they can determine where in the file they are, and then they know what's coming next. Which is what it sounds like happened here.

The player didn't do anything wrong (except be obvious). This is entirely WSEX's fault (and possibly the software provider depending on the contract, but they should have a clause for that). The "malfunction" was not including environmental randomness, but there's absolutely no way they can claim this is a software malfunction, because the code was never supposed to incorporate environmental randomness to begin with. There simply isn't a software malfunction. And if they claim there is, then it was present on every single game ever played in WSEX casino, and refunds should be forthcoming. They can't logically claim that the software was malfunctioning when and only when somebody realizes that it is.

To take the money, WSEX needs to prove that its RNG was operating outside intended parameters.. and also void every casino game played under the faulty RNG. There wasn't a specific short-term malfunction, and there's no way they're refunding everybody, so they have to pay this guy. They made enough money with their faulty RNG to cover this loss.

[trixtrix]

exactly, it's ignorant to immediately jump to conclusions about inside collusion, history is rife w/ examples of smart players who have figured out methods to defeat unprepared programmers

planetpoker rng was defeated (though not exploited) by programmers that figured out borland random function was crap and the open source was using the server system clock to seed the rng, so once/if they can synchronize their machines to the server clock, they can produce the exact same expected shuffle.

in casinomeister, a casino programmer once recalled a story where a player won 5 figures in video poker by defeating the doubling mechanism. the programmers did not keep track of the 5 cards that were dealt face down for player to choose on the server side and instead sent it to the client machine to be decoded there once the player made his selection. the player was smart enough to decode the encryption and see the 5 cards face up before he makes his selection, which resulted in 100% accuracy in defeating the double assuming there is 1 out of 5 cards that are greater than the computer card.

[relaaxx]

I'm pretty sure just about every person who has commented in this thread has said something mind blowingly stupid in either comparison or in the lol assumption that WSEX should refund every loser.

[Chuck Sims]

My initial opinion after talking to Justin was WSEX owes the player. He didn't cheat; the game wasn't malfunctioning (as in paying 4-1 on BJ); and WSEX was earning $ from the same game that they should be reviewing. After hearing more opinions around the office I changed my personal opinion. The player's funds weren't at risk. He wasn't gambling. Had it been roulette where a sequence played out every 50 spins and the player won millions betting 1 dollar bets and then $500, what would we say? Where do you draw the line?

The whole thing looks pretty bad for WSEX and it could have cost them a lot more too. The player could have told 5 friends and jotted down a wagering pattern that wasn't obvious. The player was trying to take advantage but I wouldn't call him a scammer. Maybe he thought 14k was the price the book would pay for the lesson.

In the end it's your opinion to make. SBR just reported what happened.

I am glad you changed your mind Bill. There is precedent for this type of situation. Jackpots have been hit in casinos in the USA and were later voided because the machine was not programmed to ring up a jackpot on that spin even though the machine did. The courts ruled in favor of the casino when the player sued. Since WSEX software obviously was not set up to allow a player to know if the next hand was a winner or not, the play should be voided. As you said, the player was not gambling. He was taking money from the casino without risk. Thats not allowed.

[bettilimbroke999]

If casino is rigged and you get robbed bc its rigged they keep your money
If casino is rigged and you win bc its rigged they keep your money

WSEX let me know if you ever allow outside investors in your online casino

[Chuck Sims]

tomcowley, you make very good points. I wish WSEX or the player who I believe posted in another thread would explain how he was able to tell when a winning or losing hand was to be dealt.

How stupid can the player be? Bet $1 on the losing hands, and $100 on the winning hands. Basically letting WSEX know he was not gambling but gaming the system.

[PAPSMEAR]

the player was smart enough to work out this sequence with such a small number of hands but was not smart enough to use the flaw to his advantage and fly under the radar by winning lower percentages over a longer period time. something there don't add up to me. genius v brain dead. inside job for sure. that said unless wsex can prove it they have no leg to stand on IMO and should pay up. relying on the fact that the player shouldn't have won because of a bodgy program that WSEX commissioned is no excuse not to pay. get your shit together before you put your system up for challenge. when are books going to take responsibility for thier own fuk ups?

[bettilimbroke999]

If you win 1000 bucks at their rigged online casino Im sure they audit your account, hell thats prolly 1% of accts thats up over a 1000 at their online casino, how low was this guy gonna fly under the radar win a 100 bucks and cashout for 40 dollars in fees , win anything worth cashin out in the casino and youll be audited instantly

[relaaxx]

this is my all time favorite thread. looking forward to more uninformed opinions. either side.

[UV82]

tomcowley, you make very good points. I wish WSEX or the player who I believe posted in another thread would explain how he was able to tell when a winning or losing hand was to be dealt.

How stupid can the player be? Bet $1 on the losing hands, and $100 on the winning hands. Basically letting WSEX know he was not gambling but gaming the system.

Chuck, ever so protective of Wsex - when is your beloved book going to get their act together ?

[wisky]

so when a good algorithm works and takes your money it's ok because the online casino wins ? What a joke, they should pay the guy AND GET A REAL random generator.

[storm70]

Its WSEX problem & flaw the system have , they should pay .if ppl lose it ok but not when ppl win what a joke,

[Chuck Sims]

Chuck, ever so protective of Wsex - when is your beloved book going to get their act together ?

Now this douche bag is stalking me.

I agree with SBR's Bill on this issue so why don't you attack him too. On second thought, why don't you just disappear.

[RickySteve]

I don't think we have enough information to determine what the proper course of action should be. Was this akin to counting cards in blackjack or clocking a roulette wheel, tipping the odds in the player's favor but still putting him at risk? Or did he have perfect knowledge of the cards being dealt?

[andywend]

The player in question sunk himself when he continued to alternate his bets betting $100 on all the winning hands and $1 on the losing ones.

To all the people who have responded that the player should be paid, would you still feel the same way if he won $1,000,000? How about $10,000,000?

IF the player spotted the problem and didn't try to take such financial advantage of the situation, then he would be entitled to an extremely large bonus (perhaps even more than the $14K that he won) for alerting WSEX of the problem.

However, since the guy was a greedy pig with his $1/$100 alternate bet pattern, he doesn't deserve a dime and WSEX should ban him permanently.

[reno cool]

player should be paid.
but if you're such a bad gambler that you don't know how to milk an edge, this is what you can expect.

[relaaxx]

I don't think we have enough information to determine what the proper course of action should be. Was this akin to counting cards in blackjack or clocking a roulette wheel, tipping the odds in the player's favor but still putting him at risk? Or did he have perfect knowledge of the cards being dealt?

[reno cool]

The player in question sunk himself when he continued to alternate his bets betting $100 on all the winning hands and $1 on the losing ones.

To all the people who have responded that the player should be paid, would you still feel the same way if he won $1,000,000? How about $10,000,000?

IF the player spotted the problem and didn't try to take such financial advantage of the situation, then he would be entitled to an extremely large bonus (perhaps even more than the $14K that he won) for alerting WSEX of the problem.

However, since the guy was a greedy pig with his $1/$100 alternate bet pattern, he doesn't deserve a dime and WSEX should ban him permanently.

fair point. Technically, he should. There's a difference between should and will.

[andywend]

When books try and take shots against players, we all agree that the players should be paid.

However, when its the other way around and a player is taking a clear and direct shot at a book, I find it surprising how many people defend the player taking the shot.