Read my post #34Originally Posted by Mantle7
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10-06-12 03:00 PM #36
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10-06-12 03:14 PM #37
I was actually referring to post #33. Looks like we posted within seconds of each other.
However, I have to respectfully disagree with you LT. I think it was one of the worst calls in the history of M.L.B. The shortstop would have had to of been planted under the ball in order for it to a I.F.R. He was never actually under the ball at any time.
*Ball was hit to left field. It was the left fielders play.
*Shortstop was never planted under the ball.
*Umpire needed to call it at the peak of the arch. Not 5 feet before it landed.
*It was not a ordinary play for the
shortstop or left fielder.
If the shortstop was planted, even if it was 50 feet out of the infield, I wouldnt have a problem with it. He wasn't though. It wasn't an ordinary play.
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10-06-12 05:17 PM #38
Doesn't matter who's play it is, as long as an infielder is under it. MLB Network did some magic with the camera and showed where Kozma was standing waiving his arms vs where the ball landed. Right next to each other. When the SS has to move that much, the ump can't call it before he's under it. There's no rule that he has to call it before a certain time. Yea, they look for the ball at it's peak, but that doesn't mean they have to call it by then. Plus, the ump coulda yelled infield fly right before he put his arm up. As soon as the ball hit the ground I was asking why they didn't call it, because I didn't notice it right away. Originally Posted by Mantle7
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10-06-12 05:20 PM #39
Your 4 points are the exact reason why it was the correct call. You are just wrong with the facts. Originally Posted by Mantle7
1) That is not the LF's play. He had a harder time getting to that spot than the SS did. It is the LF's role to call off the SS if he feels he could catch it as he was running forward. But he was not there in time to do so.
2) The SS was planted under the ball. He extended his arms out to call it. It was at this very moment the umpire called the IFR.
3) The rules do not state that the ball has to be at the peak of the arch. Quite frankly, the umpire could call it 5 feet before it lands. The IFR is only a curtesy to the runners and to prevent the fielder to purposely let it drop to then get a double or triple play.
For reference (Taken from MLB.com):
An INFIELD FLY is a fair fly ball (not including a line drive nor an attempted bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, when first and second, or first, second and third bases are occupied, before two are out. The pitcher, catcher and any outfielder who stations himself in the infield on the play shall be considered infielders for the purpose of this rule.
When it seems apparent that a batted ball will be an Infield Fly, the umpire shall immediately declare “Infield Fly” for the benefit of the runners. If the ball is near the baselines, the umpire shall declare “Infield Fly, if Fair.”
The ball is alive and runners may advance at the risk of the ball being caught, or retouch and advance after the ball is touched, the same as on any fly ball. If the hit becomes a foul ball, it is treated the same as any foul.
If a declared Infield Fly is allowed to fall untouched to the ground, and bounces foul before passing first or third base, it is a foul ball. If a declared Infield Fly falls untouched to the ground outside the baseline, and bounces fair before passing first or third base, it is an Infield Fly.
Rule 2.00 (Infield Fly) Comment: On the infield fly rule the umpire is to rule whether the ball could ordinarily have been handled by an infielder—not by some arbitrary limitation such as the grass, or the base lines. The umpire must rule also that a ball is an infield fly, even if handled by an outfielder, if, in the umpire’s judgment, the ball could have been as easily handled by an infielder. The infield fly is in no sense to be considered an appeal play. The umpire’s judgment must govern, and the decision should be made immediately.
When an infield fly rule is called, runners may advance at their own risk. If on an infield fly rule, the infielder intentionally drops a fair ball, the ball remains in play despite the provisions of Rule 6.05 (L). The infield fly rule takes precedence.
4) The play was a routine play. The SS did get under the ball and signal that it was his play. It was only after he did so that he ran from the spot as he must have heard what sounded like the LF calling him off.
The key to the whole play is that the SS stops and extends his arms out to call for it. This establishes the reasonable play. If he never moves, he's under it, standing still and makes the catch. It is only once he does this that the ump calls for the IFR.
Further, if there was no IFR called, and the player stays under the ball and then drops the catch, the official scoring for the play would have been an error. It would not have been ruled a hit. Because of this, it also proves that the play was routine by definition of an error.
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10-06-12 05:40 PM #40
The Shortstop at no point was under the ball. He would have needed to be planted under the ball. So you think he was under th Originally Posted by slambam
ball and just moved out of the way? There is a rule that pertains to when the ump is supposed to call the I.F.R. It was so far from the right call I have no idea how,anybody can dispute it.
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10-06-12 05:44 PM #41
The ball was 60 feet in left field. You guys crack me up. 99% of the time that call wouldn't have been made. Shortstop was never under the ball. End of discussion.
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10-06-12 06:13 PM #42
Watch it again, he was under it.
If he stayed and the ball hits his glove and falls, would you score it an error? Yes. Then its a reasonable routine play by definition of the Error rule.
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10-06-12 06:40 PM #43
Inthered, I've watched it literally 20 times already from several different angles. Shortstop did not plant and then move up 5 feet just to let the ball fall behind him. If he had, I might give the umpire the benefit of the doubt and consider the left fielder waived him off. Shortstop backpedaled, stopped, and the fall dropped 10 feet behind him. It was almost like a flop. He might have tried to make it appear to the umpire that he was under the ball but he wasnt. I'm not sure if you were an umpire being paid by ESPN or the league or a Cards fan but that's the only viewers that saw the play from your standpoint. No offense.
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10-06-12 06:43 PM #44
horrible call
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10-06-12 06:45 PM #45
Originally Posted by Mantle7
I disagree, I thought shortstop was under it and then moved up when he thought he was called off. The only horrible part of the call was the lateness of it. Originally Posted by Louisvillekid1
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10-06-12 06:48 PM #46
In the Red is exactly right, out should have been called as soon as shortstop extended his arms to call for the ball.
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10-06-12 06:54 PM #47
If it was as "routine" as everybody seems to think then why wasn't the play made? I think it was a combination of poor communication between Short and Left, and Short misjudged the ball. We see it happen all the time. Given the circumstances, 1 game playoff, pivotal moment during the game, opposition already had a huge call go their way, the umpires should have let the players play the game. Don't make a borderline call in a situation like that. Let the teams play it out. Ridiculous call.
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10-06-12 06:57 PM #48
He threw his hands up, sixty feet out of the infield, and the ball dropped behind him. He clearly misjudged the ball. He didn't throw up his arms and then run out of the way. The spot he threw up his hands and whee the ball landed were literally 10 feet away from each other.
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10-06-12 07:02 PM #49
You just answered your own question. Originally Posted by Mantle7
Shortstop thought he was called off, he would have made the play otherwise. Hell it's even possible that the umpire was yelling "infield fly" before he actually made the out signal, which the shortstop misinterpreted as the outfielder.
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10-06-12 07:04 PM #50
10 feet is reasonable for him to catch the ball had he kept going instead of moving forward thinking he was called off. I really don;t get why people don't see that. Originally Posted by Mantle7
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10-06-12 07:13 PM #51
Think what you'd like, LT. You're in the 5% that think the right call was made. So where exactly do you draw the line between the outfield and infield? So shortstop can just run out to left field if hes got a beat on it and its considered...the infield fly rule. Ball was hit too deep, Shortstop was never under the ball, Leftfielder threw up his hands like "wtf". You will never see a play like that called again. Not a ball hit that deep. Not a ball thats hit into the OUTFIELD that drops in between the two fielders.
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10-06-12 07:14 PM #52
Because he wasnt planted under the ball. He was planted 10 feet away from where the ball dropped. How do you not get it? Originally Posted by LT Profits
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10-06-12 07:17 PM #53
That makes absolutely no difference. The infield fly rule can be invoked on the warning track if the ump wants to, Originally Posted by Mantle7
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10-06-12 07:18 PM #54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuuCD...yer_detailpage
There you go, LT. Argue with Curt about it.
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10-06-12 07:19 PM #55
You could suck your brothers cok. Doesnt mean its right. Originally Posted by LT Profits
That makes absolutely no difference. The infield fly rule can be invoked on the warning track if the ump wants to,
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10-06-12 07:19 PM #56
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10-06-12 07:19 PM #57
Why do you keep stressing "planted"? The only requirement is that the ball could have been caught with a routine effort. Originally Posted by Mantle7
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10-06-12 07:23 PM #58
Stop it at the 50 second mark. He is not planted under the ball. It drops behind him. HES NEVER PLANTED. WATCH THE VIDEO.
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10-06-12 07:24 PM #59
Man, im done arguing with you. Watch the play. It was one of the worst calls Ive ever seen. If you think the right call was made then youre entitled to your opinion. BOL
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10-06-12 07:26 PM #60
Every analyst I have seen on TV is misinterpreting the rule. Originally Posted by Mantle7
The shortstop would have caught the ball ROUTINELY if he didn't think he was called off. The fact that the ball fell 10 feet behind him after he bailed and moved forward only enforces that..
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10-06-12 07:30 PM #61
Again, what difference does that make? He would have caught the ball if he didn't bail on the play, or if you prefer, first PLANTED and then caught the ball. Originally Posted by Mantle7
He never actually planted because he thought he was called off.
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10-06-12 07:31 PM #62
Worst call iv seen in a game of that magnitude.
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10-06-12 07:33 PM #63
It was 100% the right call. Just the way it was called was the problem. The call itself was wrong. The situation also did not help (i.e. btm 8th, do or die playoff game, home team, etc...)
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10-06-12 07:50 PM #64
Guys if there's a lack of communication between the two fielders, and a ball is hit in between them. IT IS NOT ROUTINE.
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10-06-12 08:15 PM #65
But it wasn't hit between them. The SS was there. He called for it. For whatever reason, he thought the LF was calling him off the ball. Otherwise he was there to make the catch. Originally Posted by Mantle7
Again, you continue to ignore a simple question. If he doesn't bail on the ball, and he doesn't catch the ball and it goes off his glove, do you score the play a hit? or an error?
The correct scoring on the play would have been an error. By definition of an error, that play is ROUTINE.
As for my qualification, I have worked for two professional baseball teams. I did not have money on the game.
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10-07-12 05:45 PM #66
Well, I've watched ever single National.game since the play was called and so far I've seen around idk, maybe, 20 balls hit to about the same spot and not once has an umpire called the infield fly rule.
Last edited by Mantle7; 10-07-12 at 05:55 PM.
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10-07-12 05:53 PM #67
S.S wandered way too far out into left field. That was Holidays ball. You keep saying it would have been ruled an error. On who? The ball was hit to left field so it could have just as easy been called an error on Holliday.. In a regular game without the extra umpie there is no way that call is made.
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10-07-12 06:08 PM #68
I'm talking about the SS. Would it have been an error? Simple question.
And the extra umpire only further helps my case. The play was called correctly because of the extra ump. Also, the 3rd base ump calls for the IFR as well. I will concede that he may only be calling it because the LF did and that all umps should signal so the players know about it.
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10-07-12 06:15 PM #69
THIS IS A BULLSHIT CALL I GUESS YOU GUYS DONT REMEMBER WHEN TAMPA BAY HAD A WHITE ROOF INSIDE OF THERE STADIUM PLAYERS COULDNT PICK UP THE BALL UMPIRES NEVER CALLED AN AUTOMATIC INFIELD FLY RULE UNLESS THE BALL WAS ON THE INFIELD.THAT PLAY WAS 50 FEET FURTHER THAN ANY INFIELD FLY RULE HAS BEEN CALLED IN 20 YEARS
IT WAS A SHIT CALL.
PLAYERS USED TO LOSE THE BALL IN THE OLD TAMPA BAY FIELD THE ROOF WAS BRIGHT WHITE AND NOBODY EVER SAW AN INFIELD FLY RULE IN THE OUTFIELD
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10-07-12 08:31 PM #70
Is LT Profits 12 years old? That's something a kid would say. Smiley face and all. Originally Posted by LT Profits
That makes absolutely no difference. The infield fly rule can be invoked on the warning track if the ump wants to,
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