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LeBron is a much better passser and finisher. People don't even contest him in the lane anymore because it is an automatic And1. The only aspect of Kobe's game that is clearly better is jumpshooting but I think that causes Kobe to rely on his jumpshooting too much which hurts him a lot.
Originally Posted by ijustwant2bpaid
shaq had to get a kobe twin in miami(Wade) to win without kobe so shaq never did it on his own
I don't think Kobe can pull this off.
i hope you were watching that last drive where bryant absolutely exploded by the defender and got to the rim. to say he cant get to the hole anymore is insanity.
as for his lack of 30 point games - i would re-look at bryants game log for 2008-09
We all know the real reason defenders get out of the way is because no matter what happens the refs will blow the whistle in favor of Lebron. LMAO. Lebron charges into the lane head and shoulders down like a full back and they call a blocking foul? lol...lebron has the ugliest jump shot i have ever seen...so much hype, sooo much support from the refs....what a clown
Just put up 40, still believe he has it!
Pretty sure Kobe is the only reason LA won tonight.
and ariza's inbound steal
and denver's poor free throw shooting.
Denver not being experienced enough and their free throw shooting hurt them a ton. Still Kobe scoring almost 40% of his teams points didn't hurt either. I really can't wait to see how Lebron responds tomorrow you know he wants to show he is better.
If you look at both Kobe and Lebron's stat's they are pretty equal. For those that say Kobe is a better shooter well he is slightly from 3 but Lebron is better overall. Kobe is a better FT shooter but the main stat that sticks out to me is that Lebron is much better at assist and rebounds. On top of all this Lebron LEADS his team in scoring, rebounds, assist, steals AND blocks. That is an amazing stat. How do you lead your team in every major statistical category? how? because he's surrounded by stiffs. Lebron makes everyone around him better. I've never seen another player, MJ included, that raised the level of his teammates. I don't know why everyone points to the olympics because every player to a man will tell you that Lebron was the heart of that team. He would not let that team slack off and pushed everyone to a whole nother level. Lebron set the tone to all those games. What Olympics were some of you watching.
Mo Williams was run out of Milwaukee, DWest was an emotional rollercoaster, Z is on shaky feet. Ben wallace was washed up. Verajao was considered a flop. Wally is old as dirt, etc... Lebron is playing with guys that would have a hard time starting anywhere else in the league. He has made them believe in themselves and they are playing at a high level. The Laker's have arguably the best talent in the league but they are underperforming by many observations. That points back to Kobe. The laker's seem to be a team of individuals while the Cav's play like a team and seem to get blood out of a turnip.
I'm a huge Kobe fan and I think he's the best offensive player in the game. He may also be the best 1 on 1 defender as well... But I think Lebron is the ultimate team player. If I was starting a team, I would want lebron as my first pick. If I had to pick a player at 24 years old I would choose Lebron over Kobe AND MJ. His maturity, poise and ability to make everyone around him play better is unbelievable. He's the Tim Tebow of basketball.
MJ never won a title without Pippen. Kobe never won without Shaq. Shaq and Pippen are arguably the top 10 and top 25 players in the history of the game. For the 3 rings that Kobe has he was never even the MVP of the final series. Shaq was MVP all 3 times. Think about that... Kobe wasn't even the best player on his own team. Some of you are obviously too young to remember how great Shaq was.
Kobe now has an extremely skilled All Star in Gasol, All Star in Odum, All Star in Bynum, All Star in Fisher (on his last legs). Who does lebron have? Z, Wallace and Wally who were All Stars many years ago on their last legs.
Lebron took a bad Cleveland team to the finals with Amon Ones (no D and no J) and Eric Snow starting for pete's sake??? Who the hell else could have done that???
In addition, all the talk about the West being the best conference, that's horseshit. The West had a handful of good teams but the majority of the teams were horrible. The East has much more balance then the West. In the West you have LA, Denver, Houston and that's it. Dallas, Utah and New Orleans couldn't beat a YMCA team on the road. If you take the East top 4 or 5 and put them against the West top 4 or 5 it wouldn't be close because the West teams can't play on the road.
You know how I knew lebron was special? When Cleveland made the huge trade that sent away half the team. They had to play a game with several D Leaguer's and only dressed 7 guys. lebron and some scrubs against Washington (when Wash was good). The line was like -18 Washington and lebron and the scrubs not only covered the game they won the game. Unreal..
Lebron
GMPGFG%3p%FT%RPGAPGPPG 2008-09 Season 81 37.7 .489 .344 .780 7.6 7.2 28.4
Kobe
GMPGFG%3p%FT%RPGAPGPPG 2008-09 Season 82 36.1 .467 .351 .856 5.2 4.9 26.8
Last edited by Mac4Lyfe; 05-19-09 at 11:52 PM.
That was a good post by you, but I do disagree with a few points. The first being the Olympics story, because I don't know what Olympics you where watching. Both Lebron and Melo said they had no idea what it was to be a true leader until watching Kobe during practice and in the games orchestrate the team. That is quotes by those two players and they also bring up the Olympics, because down the stretch in the Finals the person that all the players defered to and gave the ball up to when baskets where needed was Kobe. Not Lebron, Wade, or Melo and calling anybody the leader besides Kobe on that team is crazy unless you say maybe Wade. The intensity he brought to that team off the bench was extremely great to watch. There is no way that Lebron was the leader of that team though when he says he has never learned more or developed more over the offseason then he did in one season working with Kobe. Maybe that is the nudge he needed to become a much better jump shooter and defender this season. I still think Kobe holds the overal edge as the better player, but he his 30 and has tons of things that he has learned over the years. It is just sick to imagine how great Lebron could be in 6 more years when he has that much to fall back on.
Brandon - I followed the Olympic team religilously. The team leader was without a doubt Lebron. But I agree that every player to a man including Lebron said that they would defer the last shot to Kobe. Lebron however was the heart of the team. He kept the guys loose yet focused and was the main player to get in everyone's ass if they slipped up...
http://www.cleveland.com/olympics/in...nds_its_l.html
Here's a quote from Dwight Howard...
"I really appreciate the way he leads the team."
I can probably find a 100 articles on James leading the Olympic team. He was the guy that talked during huddles and EVERYONE listened.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/basketbal...id=250956.html
He led the team in most every stat as well...
Alright so I take that back I don't agree with most your post, but I like the way you write it. Gasol is the only player on the Lakers that has been an All-Star multiple times besides Bryant. Fisher has NEVER been an All Star, and I am from Arkansas where we support the few celebrity sports figures we have and I know that. Odom has All Star potential, but he has never truly shown it throughout a whole season, but those moments where he shows it you just shake your head and think what could have been.
The Cavaliers have plenty of players that have played in All Star games with Wally, Wallace, Z, and they have one that played in the All Star game this year with Lebron in Williams. That alone is more All Stars than Bryant has had since Shaq.
Lebron took a bad Cleveland team to the finals in a VERY weak Eastern Conference. Allen Iverson got to the Finals with Eric Snow as the starting PG by the way.
The East had a much better balance are you CRAZY. The East had one team in below .500 two teams in tied at the .500 mark. The average amount of wins for teams in the East was 49.75 among playoff teams. If you go over to the West let us see the lowest amount of wins by a team was 48 and that was 8th seeded Utah. The average number of wins by the conference among playoff teams was 53.375. So yea how you think the Eastern Conference is better I will never understand. By the way Atlanta the team your Cavs swept in Round 2 wouldn't of even made it into playoffs in the East so how the East is more of a challenge to get through I will never see any fact in that statement. Oh the East is actually the conference that can't win on the road by the way they won 160 games on the road an average of 20 per playoff team while the West won 170 an average of 21.5 per playoff team.
While I understand your points of backing up Lebron and you think he is the best use the actual facts when making a statement. Don't just pull something out of a hat and go with it.
Here's another good article...
http://sportsblog.projo.com/2008/08/...s-role-on.html
On the court, through six Olympic games, James leads the U.S. in scoring (15.8 per game), steals (16) and blocked shots (seven) and ranks second in rebounds (31) and assists (25).
Off the court, he has cajoled his teammates, reminding Dwight Howard to push himself more and telling Kobe Bryant to quit gambling so much for steals.
Just because Kobe is an ass elbowing Artest and elbowing Martin doesn't make Lebron James better then him. It's very simple. Kobe = 3 rings, Lebron = none. Until Lebron achieved 3 rings, there should be no more debate to who's better.
Wade said. "We have a lot of leaders on this team. LeBron is a vocal leader but he can lead by example, too. We have different ones but we need all of them."
Not to mention the fact that their have been multiple articles written and statements made by the younger players such as Melo, Wade, and Lebron that they learned more about being a leader and defense from Bryant then they had any other time in their careers. Look don't get me wrong I think Lebron is a great leader and a great team player I just think right now Kobe is better due to the years under his belt that have made him better. Lebron does so much off of raw skill it is scary to think of how awesome he can become.
kobe is the better player
I thought Fisher was an All star alternate. Was he in a rookie game or something? I thought i remember him at an all star game but not sure.
What exactly are you implying that I'm pulling out of a hat? Mo Williams was an alternate of an alternate for the All Star game. Z, Ben and Wally haven't sniffed the game in years. Gasol, Bynum and Odum all have All Star potential right now. Are you suggesting that Z, Ben and Wally are better players than Gasol, Odum or Bynum??? None of Clevelands players are better than LA's. Do you think differently??? What hat am I pulling that out of?
Did you see the West play this year? The worst teams in the league were from the West. For every good team the West had horrible teams. Teams that really shouldn't even be called NBA teams. The East had one horrible team in the Wizards (beseeched by injuries) but even they beat up on the slum teams of the West.
Timberwolves, Thunder, Clippers, Kings and Grizzlies were horrible so of course the top teams in the west could run up wins playing these teams. These teams weren't even competitive most nights. Anybody capping games know this.
If you took every team from the east and line them up with the West. Most people would choose more East teams than West teams.
Most everyone prior to the playoffs had the Lakers out of the West and that was it. Versus Boston, the Magic and Cleveland. It was considered a done deal that the Laker's was the best the West could offer. Granted most felt and probably still feel that the Laker's are the best team in the league, which I believe as well. But the top 3 in the East were considered all the next best. Maybe last year the West was better (but the West didn't win the title) but this year the East top to bottom IN MY OPINION is better. The top 3 teams are on par with the top 2 in the west and the middle is equal IMO and the bottom is clearly worst in the West.
The big difference I see in the West and East is home court. Many teams in the West are horrible on the road. Dallas, Utah, and New Orleans come to mind. This drops the middle level teams in the West to me.
Of course we all have opinions and I'm not trying to convince you or anyone to think differently. This is all conjecture and there's no right or wrong.
Alright that is a little more logical if you say that from top to bottom including non playoff teams that the East is better. They didn't have many teams at the bottom of the league like the West did, but you also have to remember that both those conference play within themselves a lot more regularly than they do outside. So the bottom dwellers in the West got beat up on by the big dogs who where the playoff teams. The playoff teams in the East where not as big of a challenge so there was not much parity. I would take the West over the East in terms of overal talent and a 1-1 2-2 3-3 so on battle West versus East I think the West wins more of the series. The top 3 seeds in the East are better than the top 3 in the West though so I do understand that but the road for the number one seed in the East was way easier than the Lakers road. The Cavs will have their hands full with the Magic just like the Lakers will with the Nuggets. It is going to be two great series I believe. You are also correct I do not think the Cavaliers are as good as the Lakers talent wise. Odom, Bynum (when healthy) have All-Star potential and Gasol is a legit All-Star. I am a huge fan of the Grizzlies and loved having him here while we did. Of course you want to try to convince people of your opinion though we all want people to believe what we believe. That is what is great about sports we all have opinions and you try to argue and compare to make people see things the way you do. There is no right or wrong answer as you say and you are right. We are honestly truly lucky to get to watch two of the greatest players in the history of the game play this far into the playoffs.
I've never heard of any of the guys saying that Kobe was a leader or the leader. Now of course kobe is a leader because he leads by example but I never heard any of the players say the words leader in regards to Kobe. I heard some say that they learned work ethic and preparation from Kobe and they all said that they would defer the last shot to him but nada on the leader.
I'd love to see some quotes, article, link, because this kinda stood out in my mind that Kobe seemed to be a lead by example type but maybe not a huge motivator. Not that there's nothing wrong with that, just that i've thought of Lebron as the guy who is going to step up and be heard while Kobe get's it done.
I even heard something today about the Spike lee doc on Kobe (I haven't seen it yet) this morning. I think it was Tim Legler that said that Spike had to find a real slant because kobe would never be so vocal and be in the front of all the Laker's set's, etc... His point, i think was that kobe wasn't the vocal leader. Once again, not a slight on kobe but just his personality.
Both players are incredible and everyone has their favorites. i know people who would argue that Wilt or russell were the best. I still think Shaq should be considered because he really revolutionized the game. The refs had to call the game differently because of him. Shaq won titles with 2 different teams and almost won a 3rd with orlando. If I had to start a team tomorrow, I'd probably take a healthy young Shaq over MJ, Kobe and Lebron...
the playoff teams on the east are way worst on the road than the west.
every playoff team in the east is at least 5 games under .500 except the top 3
dallas and utah stink on the road. portland and houston are 1 game under. every other playoff team is over .500
i do agree the west has the worst teams in the nba.
Brandon - I like the Grizzlies as well. I really think Marc Gasol is going to be better than his brother, which is saying alot. He is a smart and gritty player and just finds way's to beat you. Rudy and Conley are my favorites.
What the hell happened with Darious Miles?? Pot again??? Damn. that dude wasted a lot of talent. He reminds me of Odum in their lax atitudes. They come across like they don't give a dam. I was excited to see miles come back (that first game back was funny). Now he must have checked himself out of the league already.
That is something I 100% agree with you on Shaq in his prime was AMAZING. He did have great teams as well, but you have to in winning a championship so I never like those arguments. MJ had an NBA top 50 player and some great role players, but he never gets any grief for it. The only thing that bugged me about Shaq was everytime he backs a guy down it should be an offensive foul as their feet are set and he is pushing into their chest knocking them out of position. They never called it though and that to me made him the guy I would most like to start a franchise with.Both players are incredible and everyone has their favorites. i know people who would argue that Wilt or russell were the best. I still think Shaq should be considered because he really revolutionized the game. The refs had to call the game differently because of him. Shaq won titles with 2 different teams and almost won a 3rd with orlando. If I had to start a team tomorrow, I'd probably take a healthy young Shaq over MJ, Kobe and Lebron...
The Spike Lee Kobe thing is really good I did watch it and Kobe was very vocal in it. The ESPN analyst people afterword said they where shocked and had no clue Kobe talked that much during a game. I honestly don't know what type of leader he is, but I do remember interviews during the summer games where the other people where talking about what a good leader he was and how much he helped all of them get better at their game. You could be right it could just be a lead by example kind of guy, but that to me makes him as much of a leader as the vocal guy. Some people don't respond to example some people respond to vocal and the same is true the other way around some people respond to example and not vocal. To me you need to be both and after the Spike Lee thing I have no doubt that Kobe is both. Either way though the one thing I like about Kobe and that I am drawn to is his ability to zone in and not miss in the moment. Watching the game tonight when both teams had the ball I knew if Kobe had it under 2 minutes it was money and I knew if Billups was shooting it was money. They are both so clutch where Lebron truly lacks in that area and to be the best you have to rise up in that moment. He hasn't done that enough yet for me to crown him, which once he does and he gets the game to hit those long game winners he will be my number one. It is a growing process though until this season I believe he had only 1 game winner and it was a game winning layup and now he has had 3 game winners this season alone. I believe my number could be off and 2 of them are jumpers while one is a layup. Bottom line is though tonight if Lebron James had been on the line for all those FT attempts the outcome of this game would probably have been much different. To me you can't be the best player in the NBA and not make them when they count
I am not sure what happened to Miles I was happy when he went to the Grizzlies to. Marc could be extremely solid what I am hoping is that we take Thabeet with the number 2 pick and move Gasol to the 4 spot. That would leave a starting 5 of Conley, Mayo, Gay, Gasol, and Thabeet. Arthur could provide some length and solid ability off the bench as well. The Grizzlies could have some serious talent in a few years. I like Mayo, but his upside is a lot smaller than Gay in my opinion. Rudy has so many things about him that say upside and he is only 22 that I think the kid could be a future MVP if he develops like I think he has the ability to. The only thing the Grizzlies will need after Thabeet would be some good role players off the bench.
My thinking is that the top of the East was a little bit better and the bottom was a lot better and the middle was fairly equal. West teams also seem to be built for the regular season but not the playoffs. Take a team like Detroit, who I agree, didn't deserve to be in the playoffs. But Detroit would have given most teams fits in the playoffs. Most experts were saying that Detroit was the team you didn't want to play in the loffs. Only when Cleveland dusted them that people agreed that they were horrible but that team is built for the playoffs. Detroit beat Denver both games this year plus they beat the Magic and the Celtics.
Several teams in the West were just beat up and couldn't really compete. San Antonio was decimated, New Orleans was beat up. then of course the Rockets. These teams really couldn't make a run to the finals. Add to that Dallas, Portland and utah which I believe are regular season teams but can't go far in the playoffs and Denver and LA were the clear choices.
Boston, Cleveland, Orlando and Atlanta all really had a chance but injuries to Atlanta and Boston really did them in as well. Same with the Heat but they really didn't have a good shot to begin with.
as bad as the west bottom dwellers were, the 2 worst shooting teams in the league are the Sixer's and the Hawks. Those 2 teams just don't have eny mid range shooters. The only way they can win games is on athletic ability and defense because they are awful. The West at least has shooters.
The East play more of a defensive style half court set that is more like playoff basketball IMO.
OMG, I forgot about Thabeet. I was thinking Rubio for some reason but man the Griz would be sick with Thabeet at the 5 and Gasol at 4. WOW... I need to check some futures. For some reason this team is very similar to Portland IMO.
Rudy is up and coming but don't slip on Mayo. The guy is a winner and he was incredible for his rookie year. I thought he should have won ROY over Rose because him and Gay kept them in games. I think mayo had too much pressure put on him because he had to do to much. Put a few pieces around him (like a veteran scorer/winner) and he can just play loose. The Griz are extremely young but are on the way up.
Yea for some reason the projection is Rubio right now. If they take him over Thabeet I would be upset. Thabeet can't score on the block that well, but to win a championship you don't have to have a Center that can score, but they have to be able to rebound and block shots. The guy will do both of those with ease in the NBA and can always develop an offensive skillset later and if it doesn't develop so what he is still a solid center. Mayo had a lot of pressure on him, but I don't think his upside is as big as Rudy Gay. I mean don't get me wrong I think they both have a lot of upside and that 1-2 punch could be amazing. Their youth movement could be a lot like Portland, but they need that true Star. Right now neither Mayo or Gay are a star, but a potential star. One of them has to make the breakout year for them to get over the hump. With the speed of Conley at PG that really helps them as well as he might be the fastest guard in the NBA. The Grizzlies could make a run at playoffs this year with an actual center and not Darko in their starting 5 spot. It could be a good year for Memphis fans again. When they made their first playoff run it shocked everybody it might be time for it to happen again.
if u were the clippers, would u try and trade for bosh?
No you have to assume Bosh will go the Free Agent route in 2010 no matter what. It is not worth the risk to get him for one year and then let him bolt. Get Griffin now let him buy into the system so you can resign him to the Clippers and not have to worry about him going somewhere else.
Everyone saw the olympics, and without a doubt the team clown was Lebron....leader? no....clown yes.
I think Kobe got cheated out of the MVP trophy 2 out of the 3 times they won. We all saw how Kobe took over those games....Shaq would not have won without Kobe.
hey goldfinger - you never came back to join in on this discussion much. curious to see if you still felt kobe couldnt dominate a game anymore, cant drive to the lane etc etc etc...
ps: big james bond fan
Dexter I am right here pal
He is fukkin dominating, fuk me!!!
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