[ngates815]

Ok, so it's obvious you think Bryant is better.


A XXXX career : 27 pts, 6.9 ast, 7.2 reb in reg season. 28.5 pts, 8.7 reb, 6.7 ast in playoffs.
B XXXX career : 25.4 pts, 4.7 ast, 5.3 reb in reg season. 25.6 pts, 5.1 reb, 4.7 ast in playoffs.



Which guy would you rather have to build your franchise off? A or B?


So why wouldn't other teams just never play Centers against shaq and just go small? THen shaq wouldn't have anyone to guard and phil would just have to draw up some other way to win, with just Kobe and a bunch of scrubs in there.

Other NBA coaches must be stupid since they didn't do that, and they always played someone for shaq to guard.

[rm18]

1. Why do you always twist my words? I was providing that 35.4 ppg season as a justification for why the MVP is all politics. It's not based on the best player and never was.

2. Bryant is the much better jump shooter than Magic and Lebron will ever be. Lebron can't even shoot 80% from the line. His 3 ball is not good either.


3. Bryant will have 3 more 1st teams on his record before he retires. Making him 1st all time in that respect. He has 10 btw, not 9. And will be 1st all time in def. 1st team.

4. Lebron can certainly be better than Bryant, if both were to retire today, Lebron not even close obviously. You make it seem like Lebron is already a top 5 player if he retired today.

5. The Shaq/Kobe tandom could not beat MIA. Who is going to guard Lebron James on that team? Rick Fox? If you put Bryant on James you then have no one left to guard Wade, who will also be a top 20 player in history when he retires. His stats are off the charts as well. When Wade and James teamed up last season, they were 2 of the top 5 players in the league. Only other time that has been done was Shaq/Kobe. However, Chris Bosh is also a top 20 player and those LA teams never had anyone that could touch Bosh.

6. Lebron played in the Eastern conference when the Celtics hadn't formed and the Pistons were on the downswing and CHItown was nothing. The East was as weak as its ever been. With the exception of Wade single handedly winning a championship, the East was bad for many years until the Celtics formed. Bryant was doing it with Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton in the starting lineup. STARTING LINEUP. Bryant got Gasol one year and I believe he made it to the finals 3 straight years with just an All-Star, not a superstar.

7. If you took Lebron today (prime) verse Kobe in his prime, Kobe is obviously the better player. Kobe was a smothering defender back in the day. And that post up game that Lebron has now? Bryant had that when he was 22 years old. Bryant just had a lot more offensive weapons in his prime than Bron, albeit Bron is still developing and once he develops a J, he will be truly unstoppable.

8. When Lebron slows down in 5-6 years and is in the same position Kobe is in now, lets see how he adjusts his game. Jordan couldn't even adjust his game like Bryant because he was no where near the shooter Bryant was. Jordan was only good from mid range and he was a slasher. He only took wide open 3s rarely ones contested. Bron is a driver, attacker. He will need that midrange game if he wants to stay relevant 16 seasons in like Bryant.

Goat the Lakers had defenders but not in their starting lineup, they had Devean George, Lindsey Hunter, and a younger Horry on the bench, they would have to tweak the lineup, but so would Miami they would not be able to get away with Bosh or Haslem on Shaq would have to play guys who were not even in the rotation. Shaq and Kobe were arguably top 5 defenders in the league so could pick the guys up as well. Well they did not have the same roster every title, but in 2000 they also had Glen Rice to shoulder the scoring so Kobe would guard Wade most of the game.

[CanuckG]

Kobe didn't do so well in 2004 vs Pistons. He didn't shoot too well.

[Goat Milk]

Goat the Lakers had defenders but not in their starting lineup, they had Devean George, Lindsey Hunter, and a younger Horry on the bench, they would have to tweak the lineup, but so would Miami they would not be able to get away with Bosh or Haslem on Shaq would have to play guys who were not even in the rotation. Shaq and Kobe were arguably top 5 defenders in the league so could pick the guys up as well. Well they did not have the same roster every title, but in 2000 they also had Glen Rice to shoulder the scoring so Kobe would guard Wade most of the game.

Glen Rice I'll give you. Deavin George, Hunter? Please bro. We're talking about having to guard Lebron James and D Wade. Robbert Horry would have no chance to stay in front of Chris Bosh. Zero.

Gates obviously Bryant is better all time. That's not debatable. Today, Lebron is better. Your stats are stats. Wilt has the greatest stats yet is lucky if he is top 15 all time. Bosh would not be able to guard Shaq but Shaq wouldn't be able to stay with him either. Even if you started some scrub at C and bosh at the 4, I would be content to give it into Shaq every play and not double. It's proven that this won't work. It didn't work when Wilt was playign and didn't work with Dwight either. James and Wade are smothering perimeter defenders. Let Shaq go 1 on 1 all day. You'll never win that way if you have legit perimeter defenders on the opposing team that can stay with Bryant.

[ngates815]

Glen Rice I'll give you. Deavin George, Hunter? Please bro. We're talking about having to guard Lebron James and D Wade. Robbert Horry would have no chance to stay in front of Chris Bosh. Zero.

Gates obviously Bryant is better all time. That's not debatable. Today, Lebron is better. Your stats are stats. Wilt has the greatest stats yet is lucky if he is top 15 all time. Bosh would not be able to guard Shaq but Shaq wouldn't be able to stay with him either. Even if you started some scrub at C and bosh at the 4, I would be content to give it into Shaq every play and not double. It's proven that this won't work. It didn't work when Wilt was playign and didn't work with Dwight either. James and Wade are smothering perimeter defenders. Let Shaq go 1 on 1 all day. You'll never win that way if you have legit perimeter defenders on the opposing team that can stay with Bryant.

Explain how he's obviously better, because he is a great defender and jumpshooter and he scored 35 a game one season? I thought there was talks of Lebron getting defensive player of the year this year? Did Kobe ever win that?

Back in the day Kobe was great...No doubt about it. Lebron is the new Kobe, a better Kobe, a more team player Kobe. He doesn't just score and defend great, he also passes and rebounds great and get's his teammates involved.

Kobe stats are great, not many average 25/5/5 throughout a career...it's takes some skill.
I try thinking off the top of my head players that I remember that average those numbers Kobe Jordan Lebron maybe Wade?

But which guy would you rather have to build your franchise off? Player A or B?

A XXXX career : 27 pts, 6.9 ast, 7.2 reb in reg season. 28.5 pts, 8.7 reb, 6.7 ast in playoffs.
B XXXX career : 25.4 pts, 4.7 ast, 5.3 reb in reg season. 25.6 pts, 5.1 reb, 4.7 ast in playoffs.

[rm18]

Lindsey Hunter retired as the oldest player in the league at 39 years old he stayed in the league off of defense alone, you don't think he could guard in his prime? Wade can get his against almost anyone but Hunter would of guarded him better than most.

[Goat Milk]

Explain how he's obviously better, because he is a great defender and jumpshooter and he scored 35 a game one season? I thought there was talks of Lebron getting defensive player of the year this year? Did Kobe ever win that?

Back in the day Kobe was great...No doubt about it. Lebron is the new Kobe, a better Kobe, a more team player Kobe. He doesn't just score and defend great, he also passes and rebounds great and get's his teammates involved.

Kobe stats are great, not many average 25/5/5 throughout a career...it's takes some skill.
I try thinking off the top of my head players that I remember that average those numbers Kobe Jordan Lebron maybe Wade?

But which guy would you rather have to build your franchise off? Player A or B?

A XXXX career : 27 pts, 6.9 ast, 7.2 reb in reg season. 28.5 pts, 8.7 reb, 6.7 ast in playoffs.
B XXXX career : 25.4 pts, 4.7 ast, 5.3 reb in reg season. 25.6 pts, 5.1 reb, 4.7 ast in playoffs.

No he's better all-time I'm saying because of the rings. There are many differences between Kobe and Lebron but the main one is Bryant's ruthlessness. Never has there been a player like him in the league except Jordan. Who says "we're gonna cut their hearts out" at 22 years old in a finals. Lebron would never have the sack to say that. I hope Lebron wins multiple rings because that means multiple rings for Wade. If Lebron shows he has that instinct in the next few years, then I will take Lebron all day to build a Franchise around. But Bryant had the killer instinct when he was 20 yrs old, Lebron is just now getting it at 27 years old....

Lindsey Hunter retired as the oldest player in the league at 39 years old he stayed in the league off of defense alone, you don't think he could guard in his prime? Wade can get his against almost anyone but Hunter would of guarded him better than most.

Hunter could stay with a lot of PGs yes he was a great defender for years on la and the stones, but D Wade is about 240 all muscle and 6'4. He usually puts 6'6 guys in check in the post so Hunter would not be able to defend him. Didn't they try to put Hunter on him back in like 04 05 and 06 when MIA beat Detroit? I'm pretty sure Wade abused him. I'm not sure about that though. It would be tough. You can build a dynasty with bigs (Spurs, Lakers with Shaq), but honestly I'd rather have the SG/SF combo. Pippen/Jordan, Wade/Lebron. It's tougher to defend.

[ngates815]

No he's better all-time I'm saying because of the rings. There are many differences between Kobe and Lebron but the main one is Bryant's ruthlessness. Never has there been a player like him in the league except Jordan. Who says "we're gonna cut their hearts out" at 22 years old in a finals. Lebron would never have the sack to say that. I hope Lebron wins multiple rings because that means multiple rings for Wade. If Lebron shows he has that instinct in the next few years, then I will take Lebron all day to build a Franchise around. But Bryant had the killer instinct when he was 20 yrs old, Lebron is just now getting it at 27 years old....



Hunter could stay with a lot of PGs yes he was a great defender for years on la and the stones, but D Wade is about 240 all muscle and 6'4. He usually puts 6'6 guys in check in the post so Hunter would not be able to defend him. Didn't they try to put Hunter on him back in like 04 05 and 06 when MIA beat Detroit? I'm pretty sure Wade abused him. I'm not sure about that though. It would be tough. You can build a dynasty with bigs (Spurs, Lakers with Shaq), but honestly I'd rather have the SG/SF combo. Pippen/Jordan, Wade/Lebron. It's tougher to defend.

Thanks for the discussion.

You silly and really have bad arguments, since the stats don't lie, but at least you can stick to your guns on taking the guy thats stats aren't as good to be the best player.

Hopefully one day we can be captains of dodgeball teams and you just take the ruthless guys, while I take the guys that can throw and catch at a better rate. Would be a fun matchup.



Don't get me wrong, Kobe's obviously a great player, right behind Jordan...But I'll believe as of now that Lebron will be right there and trying to knock that door down in the next 5 years and certainly has the skills/abilities to do it (and now teammates, for those rings everyone talks about)

[Goat Milk]

Thanks for the discussion.

You silly and really have bad arguments, since the stats don't lie, but at least you can stick to your guns on taking the guy thats stats aren't as good to be the best player.

Hopefully one day we can be captains of dodgeball teams and you just take the ruthless guys, while I take the guys that can throw and catch at a better rate. Would be a fun matchup.



Don't get me wrong, Kobe's obviously a great player, right behind Jordan...But I'll believe as of now that Lebron will be right there and trying to knock that door down in the next 5 years and certainly has the skills/abilities to do it (and now teammates, for those rings everyone talks about)

K. Chamberlain is the greatest player of all time by your standards. Or maybe Elgin Baylor? Neither guy was ruthless on the court. Give me Shaq any day in a pick up game verse CHamberlain. Thanks.

[ngates815]

K. Chamberlain is the greatest player of all time by your standards. Or maybe Elgin Baylor? Neither guy was ruthless on the court. Give me Shaq any day in a pick up game verse CHamberlain. Thanks.

lol...different eras, but hey I understand you're salty.

It's cool. Is chamberlin going to average 30 pts 20 boards a game now a days?

Would Jordan average 30/6/6? Yes
Would Magic average 17/11/6? Yes

That's why people throw them in discussion, because it's a different era, but of course you'll say that, I would expect nothing less from a Kobe fan that doesn't think stats matter, unless of course they benefit Kobe *cough 35 ppg* *greatest of all time besides jordans*...If only averaging the most points won you championships....ohh

Kobes the greatest player of all time, ohh yea the stats don't say so.

Kobe is the greatest player in the clutch, ohh yea the stats say different as well.

But Kobe sure did average 35 a game one season, that's the only time we'll talk stats.

Kobe fan's spin it however they want to make him look like the greatest ever...Everyone understands that, I don't know why I try arguing.

Derek Fisher is more ruthless compared to Jason Kidd, but I'd rather have Kidd running my point. Ruthless only get's you so far, sometimes you just need the better player on the team.

[NYSportsGuy210]

Please. In terms of raw physical basketball talent, Lebron James is better than Kobe and by a good margin if you want the truth. Who cares about NBA championships. That is a team accomplishment. LJ has had absolute garbage surround him until he went to Miami.
Kobe recognizes that his skills are diminishing and is looking to stay relevant. Durant and James and Rose have all surpassed him and probably a few other players as well.



LOL guy who says "Must get old watching the purple & gold make it to the finals 16 times over the last 32 seasons (yes...that's 50% folks) while winning 10 NBA championships over that time period." Hey guy...nobody cares, we are gamblers not fans. If you are a fan, go to an NBA message board and talk about it there. Not the place for it here. Nobody in their right mind has "Laker envy." We are gamblers looking to cash tickets, not fans of teams because we were born or raised in a certain city.

Fail.

[NYSportsGuy210]

Kobe Bryant 61 points -Most Ever Scored by a Player at MSG

[NYSportsGuy210]

1997 Bulls vs. Lakers Game - Kobe (19 yr old rookie vs. Jordan)

[NYSportsGuy210]

Kobe vs. Michael is the only real debate that should be going on. LeBron need at least two more rings before his name is even uttered in the same breath as the Living Legend - #24 -Black Mamba.

[rm18]

Miami is a great team but they really are not that good in the halfcourt except when Lebron is super aggressive but he cant do that the whole game, Indy, Boston, Memphis, Chicago, LA all game Miami's half court offense problems, I think most championship teams of the last 30 years would beat Miami.

[Goat Milk]

lol...different eras, but hey I understand you're salty.

It's cool. Is chamberlin going to average 30 pts 20 boards a game now a days?

Would Jordan average 30/6/6? Yes
Would Magic average 17/11/6? Yes

That's why people throw them in discussion, because it's a different era, but of course you'll say that, I would expect nothing less from a Kobe fan that doesn't think stats matter, unless of course they benefit Kobe *cough 35 ppg* *greatest of all time besides jordans*...If only averaging the most points won you championships....ohh

Kobes the greatest player of all time, ohh yea the stats don't say so.

Kobe is the greatest player in the clutch, ohh yea the stats say different as well.

But Kobe sure did average 35 a game one season, that's the only time we'll talk stats.

Kobe fan's spin it however they want to make him look like the greatest ever...Everyone understands that, I don't know why I try arguing.

Derek Fisher is more ruthless compared to Jason Kidd, but I'd rather have Kidd running my point. Ruthless only get's you so far, sometimes you just need the better player on the team.

Yeah obviously I'd rather have Kidd. Once again you twist my words. The only reason I brought up the 35 ppg season is to show you that the MVP is all politics. 81 in a game will never be duplicated in modern ball. Ever. Would Jordan average 30 6 and 6 for his career if he played today? I say probably not. Not even close to as good as the defenders of this era at the 2 and 3 spot. Jordan's career would be more like 27 6 6.

Miami is a great team but they really are not that good in the halfcourt except when Lebron is super aggressive but he cant do that the whole game, Indy, Boston, Memphis, Chicago, LA all game Miami's half court offense problems, I think most championship teams of the last 30 years would beat Miami.

You have some points but Wade was 80% tops this season, if that. Also in a 7 game series it's different because defense usually wins and MIA is the best half-court defensive team since the 90s bulls.

[ngates815]

Yeah obviously I'd rather have Kidd. Once again you twist my words. The only reason I brought up the 35 ppg season is to show you that the MVP is all politics. 81 in a game will never be duplicated in modern ball. Ever. Would Jordan average 30 6 and 6 for his career if he played today? I say probably not. Not even close to as good as the defenders of this era at the 2 and 3 spot. Jordan's career would be more like 27 6 6.

lol.
Cool.
Kobe fan's are funny.

[Goat Milk]

lol.
Cool.
Kobe fan's are funny.

I'm a fan of the game chief. A fan of Jordan, Bryant, Wade Lebron. I've been getting to watch the greatest 20 year live span of basketball that will probably never be duplicated. If you don't sit back and admire Bryant's game or Wade's or Durant's or Pippen's etc then you are just not a true fan of the game.

[ngates815]

I'm a fan of the game chief. A fan of Jordan, Bryant, Wade Lebron. I've been getting to watch the greatest 20 year live span of basketball that will probably never be duplicated. If you don't sit back and admire Bryant's game or Wade's or Durant's or Pippen's etc then you are just not a true fan of the game.

Cool.

[King Mayan]

Kobe haters are funny.

LOL.

[ngates815]

Kobe haters are funny.

LOL.

True they are idiots, they don't recognize one of the greatest players.
Even now, he's still a top 10 in the league 15 years in.
There should be no hate for the guy.
The Salty guys just upset he not on their team.

[SteelRain]

Kobe haters are funny.

LOL.

do you think kobe would win a championship on the cavs or the wizards?

absolutely not

dude is 100% overrated and other NBA superstars hate playing with him

I'm a Kobe hater because the dude is pure garbage

he would never win his "5 rings" if it wasn't for the phil jackson and the 7 footers

[hotelis]

Kobe has winning mentality bordering with plain overconfidence. When down 0-3 against dallas mavs, he said they still have a chance of winning. that was his character speaking, not depicting actual situation. His abilities can not keep up with what he is saying. Hes throwing out big words, talking about destroying, but that is what he is also going to say at age of 50. problem is, he thinks he is better than he ACTUALLY is. His ego is what makes him great occassionally, and it is also what is causing him trouble. When there is an important game, like Game 7 of the Finals or Christmas game against media hyped Miami Heat, you can be sure that Kobe, craving for attention will try to prove he is the boss and shoot 30 shots, trying too hard just to get in the headlines. what i find really funny is that now he is with team USA in olympics. He has Durant and LeBron as teammates. He must be trying to destroy Durant in practices.. and really envying Lebron. Truth is, Kobe is OLD. He looks old, hes been surpassed by Durant as the youngest player to score xxx points etc. But he is still trying to prove something to the young players whilst he is not able to anymore. Combine his overconfident nature and his decreasing abilities and old age, and you get an angry old dude chewing on his fingers, blaming teammates, and losing. I think all this "Black Mamba", "Hunt or be Hunted" marketing bullshit has gotten too far in many peoples hearts.

Kobe is called CLUTCH. Does anybody has an idea or can tell me how many games has he won by himself being clutch in versus choking in last seconds?

[ngates815]

do you think kobe would win a championship on the cavs or the wizards?

absolutely not

dude is 100% overrated and other NBA superstars hate playing with him

I'm a Kobe hater because the dude is pure garbage

he would never win his "5 rings" if it wasn't for the phil jackson and the 7 footers

Kobe's not garbage, he's one of the best to step foot on the court.

Sub him for Lebron on those cavs teams, Do I think Kobe carries that team as far as lebron did? No, but who knows.
Do I think Lebron would lose with any of those lakers teams that Kobe won on? No, but again who knows.

The reason Kobe doesn't take the Cavs teams as far as Lebron is because, He doesn't have the skill set lebron has. He has the better mentality for the game, but not the better skills that can carry a team.

[jsmithj88]

Kobe's not garbage, he's one of the best to step foot on the court.

Sub him for Lebron on those cavs teams, Do I think Kobe carries that team as far as lebron did? No, but who knows.
Do I think Lebron would lose with any of those lakers teams that Kobe won on? No, but again who knows.

The reason Kobe doesn't take the Cavs teams as far as Lebron is because, He doesn't have the skill set lebron has. He has the better mentality for the game, but not the better skills that can carry a team.

it boils down to lebron being an all around player and kobe being the best scorer.
lebron improved the cavs by scoring, rebounding, passing, making his teammates better
kobe will improve the cavs by scoring 35+ ppg

[antifoil]

we talking about practice. practice. not a game, not a game. not a nba finals game. practice.

[NYSportsGuy210]

Kobe as a 19 year old made Scottie Pippen look silly on defense.... what do you think he would do to Pippen today if Scottie were in his prime?

[ngates815]

it boils down to lebron being an all around player and kobe being the best scorer.
lebron improved the cavs by scoring, rebounding, passing, making his teammates better
kobe will improve the cavs by scoring 35+ ppg

But we all know basketball is more than scoring 35 pts a game.

Lebron made every player on that Cavs team better, by getting them open shots. Kobe would demand a double team, but he's not half the passer that Lebron is, and he'd probably just toss up a jump shot rather than pass the ball to daniel gibson for a wide open jumper (which Lebron would do) Like someone said above, when Kobe averaged 35 a game he was getting double and triple teamed, if that's the case, why in the world didn't he average 8+ assists? Because he doesn't like passing, he'd rather shoot the ball every time.

But of course, Kobe would of made the Cavs better if they had him and Lebron wasn't there. Kobe does make teams better than a no Kobe team. But the Cavs with Lebron and Cavs with Kobe, it'd be fun to see which team did better, and of course my vote would be with Lebron, since he's just a different player and better all around player in my opinion.


Throw Lebron on the Lakers with Bynum/Gasol and 2 mediocre role players, it'd be tough to bet against them winning it all.

[chachi]

I dont care if one arm's tied behind his back and three defenders hanging off him ... if they were on your team, whom would you want to have the ball with a few seconds left to try to win the game?

a) Kobe
b) Lebron
c) MJ
d) other ( fill in blank )

[ngates815]

I dont care if one arm's tied behind his back and three defenders hanging off him ... if they were on your team, whom would you want to have the ball with a few seconds left to try to win the game?

a) Kobe
b) Lebron
c) MJ
d) other ( fill in blank )

Dirk.

But seriously Melo. I believe he has the best stats on last second shots. But of course those are just stats on who hits the best percentage of game winners with over a certain amount shot...

http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

I forget where the stats from the past few seasons that involve durant, but they had a last 3 minutes of the game with efficiency (fg%/ast/turnovers) And I believe Durant and Lebron were in the top, with Kobe coming in around 7th.

[Ratzz]

I dont care if one arm's tied behind his back and three defenders hanging off him ... if they were on your team, whom would you want to have the ball with a few seconds left to try to win the game?

a) Kobe
b) Lebron
c) MJ
d) other ( fill in blank )

opposite order for me..

1) MJ
2) Lebron
3) k0be

[chachi]

Indeed ratzz - MJ would be my choice as well, I ordered them that way for sake of the thread's original intent.

Yeah ngates - was poor wording on my part on the question, moreso thinking who is the opponent you'd never want to see have the chance to beat you as you knew in your heart you were doomed if he got the ball.

For me: MJ, Russell, Nowitski, Bird, West, and Magic would be my top six, but many forumites don't recognise half those names probably

Of course, a nod of affection to Reggie Miller, if nothing else for his managing his "8 pts in under 9 secs" hose job of the Knicks in the '95 conference finals I think it was

[Ratzz]

Indeed ratzz - MJ would be my choice as well, I ordered them that way for sake of the thread's original intent.

i like that you did that, Chach.. like that avatar as well haven't seen that in a while..

yeah the order has to be individuals that place 'winning' before 'credit for the Win'.. k0be does not do that..
for him: winning comes squarely after "i get credit for this win with this craaazy shot"

•• Game 4 vs, Thunder •
•• Lakers ahead by 10 at Halftime.. (Bynum 17 pts. on 11 touches)
•• Bynum just 4 touches in 2H
•• k0be shoots 2-10 in 4th Qtr. (final FG not defended, insignificant time remaining) likely 1-10 if contested
•• Thunder win by 3 pts. Take*3-1 Series lead.

MJ never lets that happen, Lebron woulda passed the ball to Bynum in the 2H and won a most pivotal game.

interesting that k0be, did not win MVP when he averaged 35.4 ppg ('05-'06) nor at*31.6 ppg ('06-'07)
but did*do so in*('07-'08) with only 28.3*ppg

it's not just the filling, k0be.. it's the crust that holds that baby together. *

[upscope]

opposite order for me..

1) MJ
2) Lebron
3) k0be

I challenge you to show me the last time LeBron succeeded under these circumstances?? Let me save you the time & tell you that it was vs Orlando in the 09 playoffs. LeBron 0 for his last 19 with his team tied or down 1-2-3 with under 7 seconds to play.....Show me otherwise...

Nice comment, you'd rather have the ball in the hands of the guy that is 0-19

[ngates815]

Upscope...Good article with accurate stats.

http://chasing23.com/kobe-bryant-vs-...winning-shots/