[freeze]

What's going on w all that haven't kept up w it

[samdapatriotsfan]

From what I have read they are deadlocked and neither side is giving ground. There is 5B in dispute. The players want to split it 50/50. The owners say okay but we get a 2B bonus. So the owners want to split it 3/2.

The players say they have been financially preparing for this and are not afraid of a lockout. It does not look good.

[xxxvince]

rich ass$@$@# wants more money.. what a shame.. the best game in the world .. hope they dont shut down or make it 18 games.. wont be nice

[hothandsmgee]

I dont see why they think 18 games is a good idea. both the fans and the players dont want it

[D3 Mighty Ducks]

I dont see why they think 18 games is a good idea. both the fans and the players dont want it

More $$$$$$ or the league.

[agharah1]

The way people talk about their lives being over until the NFL season starts again you don't think people would love to see 18 games? Yeah right.

[freeze]

Ima be pissed if there's a lockout the last lock out sucked was a boring year that year

[McBa1n]

I've been following it very closely. There is more effort to get a deal down now moreso than ever. Tuesday was supposed to be a 'big' day of talks. Since neither side is talking and there is little off the record anonymous sources speaking, the information is pretty light. I'm pretty convinced that nothing will get done in the upcoming talks - even though they are 'up against it'. I think if nothing gets done short of the end of the current agreement, nothing will get done until late in training camp, maybe. The thing is, the NFL usually gets nothing done until they reach key 'windows' in negotiations, so that's when all the heavy lifting gets done. I'm not certain that this current round of talks will produce anything. There would've been news of the 'pie' being split today if they had reached it and it was one of the points being discussed. If that isn't done, there isn't going to be a whole lot else done. It sucks. The NFL is stupid to not get a deal done now. The amount of money they are losing now and will lose is incredibly large.

[slacker00]

Ima be pissed if there's a lockout the last lock out sucked was a boring year that year

Wow, how old are you?

I thought I was getting old. I remember the previous lockout, but I was too young to understand it at the time.

[Wrecktangle]

I've been following it very closely. There is more effort to get a deal down now moreso than ever. Tuesday was supposed to be a 'big' day of talks. Since neither side is talking and there is little off the record anonymous sources speaking, the information is pretty light. I'm pretty convinced that nothing will get done in the upcoming talks - even though they are 'up against it'. I think if nothing gets done short of the end of the current agreement, nothing will get done until late in training camp, maybe. The thing is, the NFL usually gets nothing done until they reach key 'windows' in negotiations, so that's when all the heavy lifting gets done. I'm not certain that this current round of talks will produce anything. There would've been news of the 'pie' being split today if they had reached it and it was one of the points being discussed. If that isn't done, there isn't going to be a whole lot else done. It sucks. The NFL is stupid to not get a deal done now. The amount of money they are losing now and will lose is incredibly large.

Owners will use this deal to set up the future, so they have a lot to gain, and with deeper pockets they can wait out the players who largely live day to day.

Once the players understand this (they probably already know this), they should wait as long as feasible, wheedle as much as they can, and give in at the last moment before any games are played. So look for a no training season, lots of injuries during the season, and relatively sloppy play. The more complex offenses, for example, will do relatively poorly.

[Frostware]

I just want to know what Teddy Covers thinks, so I can take the opposite!

[McBa1n]

The thing that's tragic in all of this, the late Gene Upshaw, while considered a 'company man of the owners', could get deals made on behalf of the union. Rest his soul - he engineered a fantastic deal for the current players, in fact, it's probably TOO good, hence why the owners opted out.

One point of concern is the amount of lawyers involved in the process right now. Lawyers are VERY bad at getting deals done and very good at collecting billable hours.

Still no good news on the wires in the last 24 hours... And I'm sick of hearing opinions of nits like Peter King talking about it or Mike Florio's over-reactionary rambles.

One other major issue I see is that guys like Jerry Jones do NOT want to subsidize teams like Buffalo. I can't say I blame him. Buffalo, Cincinatti, Tampa Bay and a handfull of other teams are not doing everything they can to maximize revenues. The owners are as tight lipped as it gets right now, so I'm not sure where all the dissent lies - but I can guarentee Jones (and maybe Kraft) are making a stink about carving up the pie. So, even the owners might not have their house in order right now.

[BetWeather]

make it 18 games

[McBa1n]

Owners will use this deal to set up the future, so they have a lot to gain, and with deeper pockets they can wait out the players who largely live day to day.

Once the players understand this (they probably already know this), they should wait as long as feasible, wheedle as much as they can, and give in at the last moment before any games are played. So look for a no training season, lots of injuries during the season, and relatively sloppy play. The more complex offenses, for example, will do relatively poorly.

The players 'best case' scenario is to get a deal done quicker rather than later. Champ Bailey, for example, rather than to risk waiting to see what will happen probably took a deal with less money than he could've gotten with a deal in place. The players risk LOTS of money, with teams not willing to offer multi-year deals if they're going to be signing free agents with a short window to get them into camp. It's a tremendous risk for not only the individual teams, but the players themselves.

I think the players are somewhat divided with many wanting to work out with teammates as much as possible versus guys waiting for the deal to expire so they can smoke big ass Bob Marley blunts (since they will no longer be bound by the substance program of the NFL).

I have not seen much out of the players association in regards to moving on any issues. Their initial "50/50" proposal was similar to what is in place now. Also, they seem unwilling to move on a rookie wage scale that makes sense. It's utter garbage that Sam Bradford makes more than a guy like Donovan McNabb.

You're right that it will come down to the wire and the quality of the game will suffer for it. Teams like Green Bay that have their key personnel and majority of their backups signed for next season, as well as a very similar coaching staff will have a HUGE advantage early in the season over teams with new coaching staffs and lots of players that are unsigned as of right now.

If that's the case, if the deal lingers on and on and doesn't get done - the NFL is going to lose a buttload of cash, but beyond that, as fans and punters, we're also going to lose even more. The best cappers (especially people that break down the tape) will have a HUGE advantage over spreadsheet cappers if camp is cut short. There's going to be a lot of really soft lines in that event (kind of like the preseason).

[slacker00]

One other major issue I see is that guys like Jerry Jones do NOT want to subsidize teams like Buffalo. I can't say I blame him. Buffalo, Cincinatti, Tampa Bay and a handfull of other teams are not doing everything they can to maximize revenues. The owners are as tight lipped as it gets right now, so I'm not sure where all the dissent lies - but I can guarentee Jones (and maybe Kraft) are making a stink about carving up the pie. So, even the owners might not have their house in order right now.

Great analysis on all of your points, McBa1n. Keep it coming!

Good point about the owners, who disagree with each other on many issues. That often gets lost in these discussions.

[borednaz]

They both are holding us hostage, as such I don't care who wins..

[Stallion]

The NFL and NBA are both going to be in a Lockout this upcoming season.

[icancount2one]

[x] rookie pay scale
[x] better benefits for retirees
[x] salary cap
[ ] 18 game schedule
[x] lower ticket prices for preseason

Why can't they just see what the fans want and go with it

[Wrecktangle]

The players 'best case' scenario is to get a deal done quicker rather than later. Champ Bailey, for example, rather than to risk waiting to see what will happen probably took a deal with less money than he could've gotten with a deal in place. The players risk LOTS of money, with teams not willing to offer multi-year deals if they're going to be signing free agents with a short window to get them into camp. It's a tremendous risk for not only the individual teams, but the players themselves.

I think the players are somewhat divided with many wanting to work out with teammates as much as possible versus guys waiting for the deal to expire so they can smoke big ass Bob Marley blunts (since they will no longer be bound by the substance program of the NFL).

I have not seen much out of the players association in regards to moving on any issues. Their initial "50/50" proposal was similar to what is in place now. Also, they seem unwilling to move on a rookie wage scale that makes sense. It's utter garbage that Sam Bradford makes more than a guy like Donovan McNabb.

You're right that it will come down to the wire and the quality of the game will suffer for it. Teams like Green Bay that have their key personnel and majority of their backups signed for next season, as well as a very similar coaching staff will have a HUGE advantage early in the season over teams with new coaching staffs and lots of players that are unsigned as of right now.

If that's the case, if the deal lingers on and on and doesn't get done - the NFL is going to lose a buttload of cash, but beyond that, as fans and punters, we're also going to lose even more. The best cappers (especially people that break down the tape) will have a HUGE advantage over spreadsheet cappers if camp is cut short. There's going to be a lot of really soft lines in that event (kind of like the preseason).

The follow-on is, we'll possibly see dominate/weak teams again this season, i.e. the teams that get it together quickly will have a significant edge and we'll see several teams that dominate like the year NO and INDY (umm, I guess that was year before last - time flies) went undefeated deep into the season after 11 NFL coaching changes, i.e. chaos creates unbalance.

Jerry Jones = NFL wrecking greedy SOB who would wreck the paradigm that has made the NFL great for a few extra bucks in his pocket, i.e. the NFL's extreme revenue sharing plan sets the NFL apart from all the rest of the sports; I'm thinking Baseball here, a once great sport in terms of revenue.

[Cantstopmenow]

This is a dark time for NFL 2011-2012

Come to your senses you d-bags!!

[oiler]

to think they are fighting and they have the best game in town,,,guess the more u make,the more u want,think a strike will kill the sport and alot of fans will say fukk it

[jennahazeplays]

im sick of the drama just want the shit 2 be over

[McBa1n]

Now the game of chicken begins. Less than 5 days til the labor agreement ends.
Word outta DeMaurice Smith, NFLPA head, and showboating knucklehead, is "nothing is getting done" through a lot of anonymous sources. The union CAN decertify itself, but then it makes Smith mostly moot, and I think Smith, himself, has aspirations beyond representing the NFLPA, so I can say with most certainty, they will NOT decertify. IF the PA decertifies, it would block any lockout, because there would be no union to lockout.

I'm not going to say it's much of a big deal, but the Owners have thrown out an olive branch that if they can get some progress made in the next handfull of days, they will move to extend the drop dead date of the labor agreement to continue trying to get a deal done. This has happened many times in the past and has also made things grating on the fans. If I remember correctly, MLB did it as well as the NHL. It creates a period of high stakes poker where serious fans are left holding their breath. It's absolute pain as a fan to follow. I hate following it, but I can't keep myself away.

In my opinion, with no movement or any agreement on even something like the rookie wage scale, which is an easy issue to compromise, I can't see anything happening. I'm hopefull, but right now, they're playing chicken. When you're dealing with this much money and playing chicken, it takes more than 5 days to hammer out an agreement, since several issues have to be discussed. There's no way something willl get done this week, pending a miracle. The owners are going to call down the union's bluff on decertifying. The players need to get their act together and bargain legitimatly. They don't need to see the books to know they're making a damn large amount of money with owner profit below that of where it should be (if only a bit). Running an NFL team nowadays costs a LOT of money.

One final rant is in the pension/medical care of former players, which needs to be resolved. This is a horrible issue. The NFL nor the NFLPA does much of anything for former players from decades ago. The owners want the PA to handle the issue and obviously players don't want to. I recall Drew Brees even saying it was crap for him to have to help give healthcare to some old guy that used to play in the NFL. This is a PA I have little sympathy for, especially since Gene Upshaw's passing. I don't hold the NFLPA with the same contempt as the MLBPA, but on the issue of assisting former players, I have a LOT of contempt. The players are going to lose on this issue and lose ground on their slice of the pie. I don't think that's a horrible thing right now.

[Wrecktangle]

The pension attitudes on both sides has always perplexed me, but then look at the pension problems in the population as a whole. But football has more money.

[xxxvince]

owners are just 2 greedy, why kill the goose that laying golden egg? stupid rich old guys

[Salamander]

These are not middle aged guys dragging there asses to a crummy steel mill job or anything, these are young men who play football because they love to play football, I'm sure most players wouldn't mind a 30 game season (if they could party a bit more during the season, lol).

[walshy83]

I love your thinking man. Great points, definately no to the 18 game season as well. Nice post.

[joe blow]

I dont see why they think 18 games is a good idea. both the fans and the players dont want it

I want it and i don't see why they just play 2 less pre season games

[slacker00]

I want it and i don't see why they just play 2 less pre season games

You do realize that preseason and regular season isn't the same thing, right? Preseason isn't entirely a gimmick. The preseason is for evaluating talent and getting new players up to speed. Regular season is for the real players playing real games with the bulk of the preseason players gone after the final cuts. That's why the veteran QBs only play maybe a dozen series the entire preseason. Same with any other established players. It's not like they just pencil in the games as regular season and it's the same thing. It's not.


Thing is, if they expand to 18 games, it's the same as adding 2 meaningless games somewhere in the middle of the season. Do we really need to see an extra game of Jacksonville versus Buffalo at Toronto? If anything, I'd like to see the season retracted to 14 games, getting rid of the interconference divisional-seeded pairings.

My solution is to expand the playoffs to 16 teams, getting rid of the bye week for the #1 & #2 seeds. We get 4 extra PREMIUM games that people want to watch instead of watering down the existing product. Last year, it would have been Chargers at Steelers, Giants at Bears, Bucs at Falcons and Jags at Patriots. We already saw how a 7-9 Seahawks team can be competitive in the playoffs, why not the 10-6 Giants? Even further, the 10-6 Packers won the Super Bowl as a #6 seed, who's to say that a #7 or #8 seed couldn't have won it? If there are any extra games added to the NFL season, this is the first place to start talking.

[McBa1n]

Firstly, let me respond to the 18 game season. I like it, as a fan. But in reality, those 3 worthless preseason games that could be lost give a DICKLOAD of game experience to players that do things to help teams. However, the issue is on season ticket holders. Should you buy them for your team, you're paying for 2 worthless games, esentially, unless you have a ticket to the 3rd preseason game, where you will see the starters for more than 1 or 2 series. The downside of the 18 game season is players wear out. Playoff seedings are established. For me? I would love 2 more weekends (heck even 3, with the bonus bye week). The downside is game experience for talent that may/may not make the 52 man roster. Personally, I could give a rat's ass. I would LOVE more football, as a fan. I still havn't talked with a fan against the schedule opening up to 18 games, but so many say 'fans don't want it'. I suppose they aren't talking with NFL fans. There's significant + and - to going 18 games. From a fan's persepective, or a punter's, I don't see why it wouldn't be amazing. That makes not 3 quarters of preseason, but 4 games that mean a damn. How can you not like it. Makes no sense that fans aren't for it.

Anyhow, Labor Update:
One player said that they are talking 'for real' (a player in the negotiations). I don't buy it. There isn't one owner present. Sure, John Mara is there, but he's a toolbag and isn't an owner and doesn't count. Get Dan Rooney in the room, and then I know shiz is gettin done. Bottom line is, there's less than 48 hours left to get something done and the majority of 'principles' are nowhere to be seen.

The only 'good' update leverage-wise is that a judge ruled in favor that aided the players union. The judge ruled that if they lock the players out, they owners WOULD NOT be eligable to collect their TV money from all the networks that broadcast NFL games. The owners took a MASSIVE hit, because those deals that paid billions to the owners (which were supposedly guarenteed), are not guarenteed. So, NO ONE is getting paid if the owners lock out the players.

I think tommorrow might get more serious in negotiations. IF that is not the case, then I'd doubt HIGHLY that the NFL plays next year when it should, at best. If that is the case, I'll be one sad mofo.

[slacker00]

If the NFL goes to an 18 game regular season, they'd have to expand the preseason to 5 games before they would retract it to 2 games. If they do go to 18 games, they'll inevitably have to allow for teams to have an expanded roster to allow for the extra injuries that are bound to occur due to the extra games. This means more talent evaluation, more acclimation for the inexperienced players, etc. If anything, if they go to 18 games, the preseason should be expanded to 5 games to allow for the extra preparation required for a longer season. Some teams play 5 preseason games already, so it's maybe something the NFL has already been thinking about.

Personally, maybe I'm too "old school". I think the SuperBowl should be played in January, not February. I think March Madness should be in March, not April. I think football should be played on real grass, not artificial turf. I think real football should be played in real weather, not inside a dome or bubble. For me, NFL has always been about quality rather than quantity, the NFL isn't the NBA or MLB in which most games mean very little and nobody really cares from game to game. IMHO, the NFL season is stretched thin enough as it is with 32 teams and a 16 game season. For me, extending the NFL season from 16 to 18 games makes as much sense as extending the standard NFL game from 60 minutes to 64 minutes, what's the point?

For the people going through post Super Bowl withdrawal, I wouldn't mind seeing an NFL developmental type spring league to allow the marginal NFL type talent a chance to showcase some skills, similar to the UFL. If meaningless games are to be added to the NFL season, I would rather see guys fighting to demonstrate their worth rather than watching top players trying to avoid injury in a lengthened and meaningless extension to an NFL regular season.

[Wrecktangle]

You do realize that preseason and regular season isn't the same thing, right? Preseason isn't entirely a gimmick. The preseason is for evaluating talent and getting new players up to speed. Regular season is for the real players playing real games with the bulk of the preseason players gone after the final cuts. That's why the veteran QBs only play maybe a dozen series the entire preseason. Same with any other established players. It's not like they just pencil in the games as regular season and it's the same thing. It's not.


Thing is, if they expand to 18 games, it's the same as adding 2 meaningless games somewhere in the middle of the season. Do we really need to see an extra game of Jacksonville versus Buffalo at Toronto? If anything, I'd like to see the season retracted to 14 games, getting rid of the interconference divisional-seeded pairings.

My solution is to expand the playoffs to 16 teams, getting rid of the bye week for the #1 & #2 seeds. We get 4 extra PREMIUM games that people want to watch instead of watering down the existing product. Last year, it would have been Chargers at Steelers, Giants at Bears, Bucs at Falcons and Jags at Patriots. We already saw how a 7-9 Seahawks team can be competitive in the playoffs, why not the 10-6 Giants? Even further, the 10-6 Packers won the Super Bowl as a #6 seed, who's to say that a #7 or #8 seed couldn't have won it? If there are any extra games added to the NFL season, this is the first place to start talking.

If you are serious about making money off sports, you'll want these extra games as the limits are higher for reg season vs pre-season. Even as a "fan" I'd rather more reg season games than pre-season; in the NFL all games are worthwhile if you are a few games out and need to make up ground (like SD on KC this year).

[goucla]

don't get rid of bye weeks its the perfect compromise between straight playoffs and bcs

[McBa1n]

Man, I'm with you slacker. BTW, thanks for the contributions. You are too generous. I'm sure i'll donk them off proper, but thank you.
I like the "old school" way of March Madness being in March, I'm also in favor of the Stanley Cup playoffs playing the first 4 games in 5 nights. TV has spoiled it all. Sadly, it's over. The mistique is over. TV contracts ruined it all. If the World Cup or the Euro Championships follow suit with TV, then sports are DONE, but it will happen in our lifetime. Such is sports, it sucks. Anyhow, I'm from your school, Slacker, I like it. Sports would be better if they were before incredible tv contracts.

SO, nightly update. The owners are over a barrel. Not only are they screwed that they cannot collect their TV money, it was ruled that they did not bargain faithfully to maximize profits and did not bargain in good faith with the players. The judge ruled that they owe 59%ish to the players had they not made such an agreement that paid them in the event they locked the players out. The deal, the judge rule, would be significantly more. That is a big deal to the NFLPA.

However, the league's 10 man council (of owners) DID meet with the NFLPA today, which was positive. They did not meet all that long, but they did. After they met with an agreed upon mediator, the ownership council met with the rest of the owners. Now, details are sketchy at best, but of that ownership council, Robert Kraft and Jerry Jones flew out (they are part of the 10 man council that is striving to get the deal done).

So, we've got less than a day left. If no deal gets done today, there's little reason to believe that the NFL will play on time. If Kraft and Jones bailed, then the owners don't even have their house in order. They are the top 2 earners with the most loan debt to pay off (they own their own stadiums).

Sorry to say it, but the NFL, likely, is f'd for all of us, over really nothing to them. However, I'll watch closely the next day. But if no deal is struck today, then there is no window where one will get nailed down until opening day. That's a bad thing.

[Dax]

The NFL agrees to delay the CBA agreement 24-hours, I hope that makes the difference and they don't do a lock out, I donno what I'd do without Football this year...