[mark wahlberg]

[Doc JS]

I've got this on the same level of: Are the Patriots the greatest team of all time question. The answer is: It's early let the season play out. If they're 19-0 after the Super Bowl in February, come back and we'll talk.

But to answer your question...He's in the discussion.

He is a great QB. He is on a great team. He is surrounded by great players. He has already won 3 Super Bowls.

But the BEST OF ALL TIME takes in a lot of territory. And the NFL has changed a great deal from the days of Johnny Unitas where QB's called their own plays, etc.

But how good do you think he'd be if he were in Miami right now? The answer is: not worth a sh*t.

Let's let his career play out and we'll see where he is at the end of his show. But for right now, he's in the discussion.

[SBR Lou]

But how good do you think he'd be if he were in Miami right now? The answer is: not worth a sh*t.

How good would Rex Grossman be in New England? Still not worth much in my opinion. Yes we need to realize Brady has incredible protection, but this guy reads defenses as well as Peyton Manning does. They are both very gifted and smart QB's, they make adjustments at the line all the time and their numbers speak for themselves.

I don't remember a QB ever being as cool and calm as Tom Brady is in the pocket, this guy has not always had Peyton Mannings cast of offensive weapons either, and he still has three Super Bowl rings. Tom Brady has talent beyond just making the throws, he is as clutch as they come.

[HAWGMOLLIE]

I think Brady is playing behind one of the best offensive lines I have seen in a long time. This gives him time to disect defenses. I really think alot of good qbs in this league would shine in the same set up brady is in right now.

[Doc JS]

How good would Rex Grossman be in New England? Still not worth much in my opinion.

crazl,
No arguement from me but it doesn't work in reverse. Putting a bad QB on a good team doesn't transform him into a good QB (although I suspect that Rex would be *better* in New England than he has been in Chicago) nearly as much as putting a good QB on a bad team shows how there is just so much more to an offensive team's success than just the QB.

A better analogy might be - How good a QB would Peyton's daddy, Archie, have been if he had been on one of the better teams of his day. The best the Saints ever did under Archie was, I think, 8-8. And Archie was a great QB just played on lousy teams without much support.

I don't remember a QB ever being as cool and calm as Tom Brady is in the pocket...Tom Brady has talent beyond just making the throws, he is as clutch as they come.

crazl,
I don't know how old you are. But if you're not old enough to have seen and remember the Super Bowl between the Niners and Denver which the Niners won something like 55-10, do yourself a favor and get a copy and give it a watch. Joe Montana was every bit the cool customer as Tom Brady. Hey, they called him Joe Cool!!!!

Look, I'm not saying Brady is great. He is. Going to the HOF? Absolutely! I'm just saying, let's not cannonize him just yet by calling him the best of all time. As Wilbon was saying on PTI today, who you taking down from the Mt. Rushmore of NFL QB's (Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, Joe Montana, John Elway) to put up Tom Brady?

Doc

[cartay]

QBs get too much credit and too much blame.

One should consider who plays around them, and what they do with talent and without talent around them.

[SBR Lou]

Doc,

Did you hear John Maddens comments about Brady the other night? He said that he's never seen a QB play the position better, and he even elaborated and said that includes Montana. I agree with him, it's no slight to Montana at all, its just a big compliment to Brady.

[Doc JS]

Doc,

Did you hear John Maddens comments about Brady the other night? He said that he's never seen a QB play the position better, and he even elaborated and said that includes Montana. I agree with him, it's no slight to Montana at all, its just a big compliment to Brady.

crazl,
I did hear big John and I'm certainly in no position to agrue with someone who knows as much football as John Madden.

I think you could throw Brady, Montana, Elway (all in their prime) in a bag and pull one out and you wouldn't be disappointed with whichever one you got!

[The Seer]

I agree Brady is great. Montana was cool as hell in the pocket too. However, the key to both of their successes and to a greater extent for Brady in my opinion is the quality of their offensive lines. Brady never gets touched. He gets at least 5 seconds to throw the ball. Marino and Elway had considerably more talent in my opinion.

[pavyracer]

I agree Brady is great. Montana was cool as hell in the pocket too. However, the key to both of their successes and to a greater extent for Brady in my opinion is the quality of their offensive lines. Brady never gets touched. He gets at least 5 seconds to throw the ball. Marino and Elway had considerably more talent in my opinion.

Wasn't Brady awful last year without any good receivers? You are as good as the people around you let you be.

[Benson17]

Favre gets my vote.

[SBR Lou]

Wasn't Brady awful last year without any good receivers?

No, I don't think so. In fact his team was one half away from another Super Bowl. Brady has always made due without a bunch of quality receivers, now he's finally got what he deserves and look at what he's doing.

[Sportsgirl]

The bottom line in football is the super bowl. Until Brady gets 4, I'll stick with Montana and Bradshaw as the best all-time.

[Sportsgirl]

Wasn't Brady awful last year without any good receivers? You are as good as the people around you let you be.

Amen to that.

[Poker Pirate]

how can brady be the best thing ever when he couldnt even make the pro bowl last year?

That was a joke that he wasnt (as is the pro bowl itself) but to answer the Q I'll say hes damn close, I need to see him do some blowouts in the playoffs, then ill hand him the crown.

[Thomasha7]

No

[pico]

if you replace brady with peyton, do you think the pats be better or worse?

[SBR Lou]

if you replace brady with peyton, do you think the pats be better or worse?

This is a tough question. Its not like there would be tons of drop off, but I think the Pats are better off with Tom Brady.

They both do the same things well, reading coverages, making adjustments, slinging it around, doing their damage in the pocket. Both extremely smart.

Tom is more clutch though, and I think he does a better job spreading it around. They always remark that his favorite receivers the open guy, and its true. Sure now he has a huge #1 in Moss, but this hasn't always been the case. Peyton has had the WR's, but Tom's had the defense. Now Peytons WR's are banged up and he looks like someone else, but to be fair he hasn't had time to practice with some of the guys filling in .

This is like comparing a Lincoln and a Cadillac though, you really can't go wrong with either one there's not a big drop off either way.

[Mr Handicapable]

I have to say Brady is the best I've ever seen and I'm a Indy resident & huge Colts fan! Brady has a bigger arm than Manning and is a more natural leader imo! Peyton outworks anyone at his craft and has made himself into a champion but I think he's had to develop as a leader over the years...not a natural leader like Brady, Montana, or Aikman! Now has Peyton been backed up with superior coaching/defense like Brady? The answer is NO (see Jim Mora)! Could Brady carry a team w/little to no talent to the Super Bowl like Elway in the 80s? Elway carried 3 teams to the Super Bowl with little to no running game whatsoever and a average defense at best by scrambling and making freakish laserbeam throws!
Manning still fits Indiana the best and we love him for it! I doubt he would leave a pregnant woman for a supermodel. Not that Indiana is crawling w/supermodels to begin with!!

[Mr Handicapable]

This Super Bowl count shit is stupid too! Football is the ULTIMATE team game and while winning it is everything for a QB...how much do they really control? A QB might factor in 40% of his teams success or failure and thats overestimating I'm sure! I guess Brad Johnson is better than Marino was and
Jim Plunkett (2 SBs) was one of the greatest to ever play the game? How come the great Trent Dilfer doesn't get 10 commercials per hour on TV? Its an outrage?? I'm no Bronco fan but Elway pulled off the greatest feat IMO by getting 3 of those scrub teams with no RBs, WRs, or defense to the Super Bowl! Hell Karl Mecklinburg couldn't outrun my dad and he was the best they had on D!!

[SBR Lou]

I doubt he would leave a pregnant woman for a supermodel. Not that Indiana is crawling w/supermodels to begin with!!

That was a cheap shot. We don't know the details of why they split.

[mgcolby]

Wasn't Brady awful last year without any good receivers? You are as good as the people around you let you be.

62% completion percentage
3529 yards
24 TD's
12 Int's

Jabar Gaffney is the only WR from the 2006 Patriots to catch a pass in the NFL in 2007. Reche Caldwell his leading receiver last season can't get on the field in Washington, Troy Brown has been on the PUP along with Chad Jackson. Doug Gabriel and Kelvin Kight are no longer in the league.

So, no Brady wasn't awful last year he arguably had the best season of his career. Given the talent or lack thereof around him.

Consider this, he loses Givens via FA, Branch gets traded for a future 1st round pick. They sign Reche Caldwell to replace Givens. Caldwell and Brown are the only receivers he has any familiarity with. The Pats trade for Gabriel at the end of preseason, he gets cut around week 5. Jackson gets injured and misses a bunch of games. They sign Gaffney in week 10. It was a revolving door at the WR position and yet he still put up good numbers.

I ask one question: Does any other QB in the league get to the AFCC game and come 1 play from the SB with that WR corps in that situation? And they can have everything else NE had last year, defense, coaching etc..

I think that is an obvious No.

[mgcolby]

I agree Brady is great. Montana was cool as hell in the pocket too. However, the key to both of their successes and to a greater extent for Brady in my opinion is the quality of their offensive lines. Brady never gets touched. He gets at least 5 seconds to throw the ball. Marino and Elway had considerably more talent in my opinion.

With the exception of this year Brady has had a lot of problems with protection. In 2005 both Matt Light and Dan Koppen were put on the IR and missed half the season. He has played a lot of games with 2 or 3 starters missing including SB 38, where they had Russ Hochstein starting just weeks after being signed off of Tampa's practice squad. Brady was getting killed last season due in part to line issues and the fact that his receivers couldn't get any seperation.

Brady isn't mobile in the terms of scrambling, but there is not one QB in the league that moves as well in the pocket as he does.

NE's line is very good but a lot of the reason Brady has so much time to throw is because most teams are afraid to blitz. The matchup problems NE's WR's present, force most teams into nickel and dime coverage not leaving a whole lot of room for big blitz packages.

[Rollins08]

You can argue brady is, but the first superbowl wasn't really his. In fact they shouldn't even have been in it if not for that stupid tuck rule. Let him win another one or two and then I think he'll be the greatest.

[mgcolby]

For the record I am not arguing that he is the greatest QB ever. I think he needs to be in the conversation as one of the greatest. But IMO, you can't really talk about someone being the greatest ever until his career is over.

[Mr Handicapable]

Brady seems to live a charmed life in more ways than one! In addition to the tuck rule nonsense...they only get to Indy last year because the idiot DB from the Chargers that picked him off forgot to fall down! Miami is stupid enough to let Welker go and REACH in the draft for Ginn when they already had a proven slot receiver/returner! Moss made Culpepper's numbers look good so of course Brady took off with him! I'm convinced Brady is the goat for 2 picks and Indy wins this year if they stick to the stretch play and dump offs to Addai! Not to mention, Venatieri makes EVERY big kick w/Brady but F C N chokes this year time after time for the Colts?? Can't take anything away from the guy though...he takes advantage of opportunities like no other! Would be nice to see Peyton w/a creator like Moss or TO in his career though! As great as Marvin was or Reggie Wayne is....they are route runners and not blessed with anything near the talent of Moss/TO! Moss is the most talented player I've ever seen when motivated like this year! Can't respect the guy but the truth is the truth!

[Dark Horse]

Possibly the best OL ever.

As to Brady, too early to tell. If he has five or six rings at the end of the journey, who could argue against that?

[durito]

Look at how Peyton is struggling without receivers (and Reggie Wayne is way better than any of the WR's that were in NE last year) right now and compare that to how well Brady did for years without quality receivers.

While this years stats are off the charts for Brady, what he's done in the past with much less talented offenses are just as impressive.

[Mr Handicapable]

Well in the never ending Brady/Manning debate most fans forget this too....Brady has always had strong defense/coaching behind him and never had to be the savior of a bad team like a #1 pick like Manning! Peyton still tries to do too much at times...ie....6 picks vs the Chargers when the special teams fell apart leading to a big deficit! Has Brady ever had a defense as bad as what Indy fielded under Mora....not even close! Peyton has had some great rallies through the years like the Tampa game from years ago...down 21 with 3 minutes to go....down 21-3 vs the Pats last year!
Down 23-0 this year and win except for a Vinatieri meltdown? Brady is a great clutch QB no doubt but he's never had to carry a offensive team that needed a minumum of 27-30 points to win either or produce a huge rally in the 4th quarter! You could support an argument that the Pats have been a more complete team under Belechick with defense/special teams but Dallas won 3 SBs via the Indy route of paying the offensive stars and scraping together the rest of the team! New England and Indy are completely different which probably adds to the rivalry!

[mgcolby]

Well in the never ending Brady/Manning debate most fans forget this too....Brady has always had strong defense/coaching behind him and never had to be the savior of a bad team like a #1 pick like Manning! Peyton still tries to do too much at times...ie....6 picks vs the Chargers when the special teams fell apart leading to a big deficit! Has Brady ever had a defense as bad as what Indy fielded under Mora....not even close! Peyton has had some great rallies through the years like the Tampa game from years ago...down 21 with 3 minutes to go....down 21-3 vs the Pats last year!
Down 23-0 this year and win except for a Vinatieri meltdown? Brady is a great clutch QB no doubt but he's never had to carry a offensive team that needed a minumum of 27-30 points to win either or produce a huge rally in the 4th quarter! You could support an argument that the Pats have been a more complete team under Belechick with defense/special teams but Dallas won 3 SBs via the Indy route of paying the offensive stars and scraping together the rest of the team! New England and Indy are completely different which probably adds to the rivalry!

Dallas had one hell of a defense during their 3 SuperBowls. I wouldn't call any of their SB defenses "scraped together".

Off the top of my head, they had Charles Haley, Deion Sanders, Leon Lett, Ken Norton and Darren Woodson.

[Mr Handicapable]

Maybe scraped isn't the right word but I bet Dallas spent atleast 75% of their payroll on the offense. Norton and Deion both left for more money in SF! They were built to play in the lead just like the Colts! I lived in Dallas for 11 years during their 3 SBs and what a bunch of thugs! They literally ran wild...they had their own "white house" for the drugs and whores! Mark Tunei overdosed right after his career ended! Nate Newton busted for drugs and put in prison! Very few class people on that team! That stuff may not matter to most fans but it matters to Indy fans!

[4FUN.AND$$]

I still live in Dallas and they were a bunch of thugs. However on game day they got the job done. I know their behavior is not justifiable but they did play good ball. As far as Brady I think he is still young and a "best quarterback ever" tag is not really plausible until his playing days are over. What if he has 4 losing seasons in a row where he gets sacked, gets pressured, and throws picks in the coming years ?

[gummo]

Y.A. Tittle is the greatest qb of all time. It's all about systems these days.

[imgv94]

I've talked to a few older men the other day and they all told me that Brady is the best QB they've ever seen.

I tend to respect my elders opinions.

[Crutch]

its too early to give him that title