[dotl]

Hi

I placed a bet on bwin 10 days ago

Type of bet Multi bet
Place bet via Web Live
Date 6/7/2008 6:58 PM
Odds 3.42
Stake per bet 500.00 EUR

6/7/2008 6:00 PM
Switzerland - Czech Republic (Play by Play) Which team will take the first goal kick in 2nd Half? Czech Republic Czech Rep. 1.85
6/7/2008 6:00 PM
Switzerland - Czech Republic (Play by Play) Which team will take the 8th goal kick? Czech Republic Czech Rep. 1.85


Combo was won, they paid out, everything is ok.
9 day later i see 800 euros mising from my account. I check the mail. Nothing. I know i didn´t place any bets that would bring me that kind of lose. I poke around my bets and I go to account movements.

6/16/2008 7:20 PM Manual Deposit Won Bets / Manual Deposit Won Bets + 925.00
6/16/2008 7:19 PM Won bets correction / Won bets correction - 1711.25

They have cancelled the bet, and count it like I placed a single bet. No information, no e-mail alert. They just took the money. Of course I mailed them, and then they´ve sent this reply.

Please note there was a manual correction done on your bet as initially the incorrect winnings were paid out.

You were paid �1711,25 due to an incorrect odds calculation with the payout in our bookmaking department instead of �925 which you should have been paid and is now on your account.

We apologise for any inconvenioence caused.

Please see below the relevant section from our terms and conditions.

A3.8 Errors:
The company assumes no responsibility for typing, transmission and/or evaluation errors. In particular, the company reserves its right to correct obvious errors - even after the event - with the input of betting odds and/or the evaluation of betting results (e.g. odds-related, team-related, event-related errors) a nd declare affected bets void. The company also assumes no liability for correctness, completeness or up-to-dateness of the information services provided, for example live scores and result messages sent via e-mail or SMS. The stake is exclusively the amount confirmed and recorded by the company. In case the erroneous event/market is cancelled all bets are void and will be evaluated as won with odds of 1,00.

Obvious error is very elastic term. The can say 50% of everything is obvious error, but they just got outsmarted, or whatever.

My question is do I have a case here for the return of my winnings? And how is it possible to make such a big thing like moving so much money, and not informing the person who owns the account?

Thank you

[Justin7]

What was the error? Was it clearly a bad line on the game they canceled?

[ruby]

From the time stamp I see this would have been place at half time.

Can I ask how may goal kicks there were in the first half?

Something makes me want to guess seven.

[dotl]

yes, seven

[noyb]

yes, seven

haha.. so you parlay two different bets (the 8th goalkick, and the first goalick after HT) which are actually in fact both the same bets, and really expect to be paid the value of the two seperate bets multiplied??

sorry, but no way. bwin is completely right in this case treating it as one bet. you risked 500, on one certain event happening, and were paid accordingly at odds of 1.85.

[ruby]

Ok, I'm going to to stick my neck out even further and speculate that dotl placed another, losing, 'combination' bet at the same time that hasn't been mentioned, looking like this:

6/7/2008 6:00 PM
Switzerland - Czech Republic (Play by Play) Which team will take the first goal kick in 2nd Half? Switzerland 1.85
6/7/2008 6:00 PM
Switzerland - Czech Republic (Play by Play) Which team will take the 8th goal kick? Switzerland. 1.85

dotl is clearly what we in the UK would call a "shrewdie" ;-)

[andynbg]

I guess he is pissed that he lost 75 instead of making any winnings. i am sure he played both sides because all bets are the same. The 8th goalkick by any team wa also the first one in the second half. I hope you got what he did. He made his bets at ht. it is basically the same as you would bet on a parlay of which team makes the kickoff and which team receives the ball first. You see. 1.85x1.85*500 = 1711.25
1711.25 - 1000 = 711.25 in winnings for betting both sides. No wonder bwin made the bets invalid.

[dotl]

haha.. so you parlay two different bets (the 8th goalkick, and the first goalick after HT) which are actually in fact both the same bets, and really expect to be paid the value of the two seperate bets multiplied??

sorry, but no way. bwin is completely right in this case treating it as one bet. you risked 500, on one certain event happening, and were paid accordingly at odds of 1.85.

they had offered me to make that combo
i didn´t force them
why should i be responsible for the fact that idiots work there?

p.s.
they have paid up the same thing plenty of time

[dotl]

Ok, I'm going to to stick my neck out even further and speculate that dotl placed another, losing, 'combination' bet at the same time that hasn't been mentioned, looking like this:

6/7/2008 6:00 PM
Switzerland - Czech Republic (Play by Play) Which team will take the first goal kick in 2nd Half? Switzerland 1.85
6/7/2008 6:00 PM
Switzerland - Czech Republic (Play by Play) Which team will take the 8th goal kick? Switzerland. 1.85

dotl is clearly what we in the UK would call a "shrewdie" ;-)

bet won for you

i mean it´s battle, i get it
you win some, you lose some
but the most annoying thing is that they just cleaned the account, and didn´t explain why
that is what really pissed me off

[dotl]

ok, thanks everybody for the thoughts
they´ve punk´d me back
kudos for them

[tomcowley]

You have a valid complaint. They were dumb enough to take it, and they have no rules about retroactively voiding such things, so you should be paid.

[ruby]

You have a valid complaint. They were dumb enough to take it, and they have no rules about retroactively voiding such things, so you should be paid.

This is nonsense. They haven't voided it, and every book has rules about what happens when a correlated multiple/parlay is accepted in error. I don't know Bwin's rules, but most books I know have it that the stake is split equally across the correlated selctions, which is consistent with what has happened here.

[tomcowley]

Bwin doesn't have those rules. They have to pay.

[ruby]

*Sigh*.

B1.6.2 Related Bets:
The customer may not combine (parlay) related bets on the same event. Related bets are two or more different bets that have related contingency.

Example:

Bet 1: “Which team will score the next goal?” contains the following results to bet on:
“Team A”
“Team B”
“No Goal”
Bet 2: “When will the next goal be scored?” contains the following results to bet on:
“Time X”
“Time Y”
“No Goal”
As the option “No Goal” has an effect on both bets, these are deemed “related” to each other.
Related bets do not necessarily contain the same result or refer to the same action. As the relation of bets is not always as obvious as in the example above, the company reserves the right to determine which bets are related to each other. If a multi bet containing 2 or more related picks has been accepted in error, then the company reserves the right to declare this bet invalid (see rule A3.2 Invalid / Void Bets).

[tomcowley]

I read through and missed that. Oops.

By their rules he's entitled to his $75 in juice back. Both parlays should be voided in full, not split, according to B1.6.2 and A3.2. Am I missing a "split" rule too?

[noyb]

come on...

even if it wasn't explicitly in their rules, there's always common sense. if a decent behaviour is expected from the book, it should also be expected from the player. the guy clearly took a shot, admits he did. there's no way a book should have to pay here if they find out. good for dotl apparently he has gotten away with this before (not so smart posting it in a public forum though, if bwin somehow reads this they would be in their right to regrade those bets too), but the poster got off light imo, a lot of books would have (and bwin could have according to their rules) voided the entire combi altogether.

[DIF]

dotl IM on your side.

seems people on this forum always take books sides.

perhaps its time to leave.

[chemist]

dotl IM on your side.

seems people on this forum always take books sides.

perhaps its time to leave.

There does seem to have been an influx of euro shot takers expecting help lately.

[tomcowley]

He bet both sides. He's worse off having the wager split, than voided altogether, which is what their rules state will happen.

[chemist]

He bet both sides. He's worse off having the wager split, than voided altogether, which is what their rules state will happen.

He would technically have a complaint there, though that's not what he complained about. The OP only mentions wanting his parlay winnings and not being happy about not being notified. The latter is justified (though betjam is the only book which has ever notified me of voided bet, so not telling the player seems to be industry standard), the former is risible.

[noyb]

He bet both sides. He's worse off having the wager split, than voided altogether, which is what their rules state will happen.

since the company " reserves the right to determine which bets are related to each other " an unethical book, and bwin has shown some dodgy behaviour in the future, could have voided the winning parlay and kept on the losing parlay. now then the OP would finally have a valid complaint ofcourse, but who is going to go fight to get this player's money back. i'm sure SBR would have had better things to do. there's enough people getting screwed who aren't taking shots needing assistance.

i can't believe bwin let this guy continuely bet 500 euro on this kind of bets though, theŭ're usually not hesitant about limiting everyone with an iq over 50 down to a few euro max.

[tomcowley]

Yeah, some of their other T&C about retroactively voiding bets are really really sketchy. In OP's case, assuming he actually has hit this shot before and gotten paid a few times, he's probably better off eating the 75 and not getting the rest of his bets reexamined- although he does have a claim for the 75, it would suck to get it back and lose thousands from past bets.