[walkingman]

Before I get started with my complaint, I have already filed a complaint form and spoke with Lou regarding the situation. As you can guess by my post in the forum, the complaint went nowhere and Lou/SBR sided with Heritage Sports. Lou said I was welcome to share my experience with the forum and hopefully enough people will side with my views and Heritage Sports will reconsider their stance.

I placed a four team parlay and every wager won before the last game started. I used HS special Hedge Play against the last wager to guarantee profit. If you are unfamiliar with their Hedge play here are the rules(which I completely disagree with):



-------

Let's say you have $1,000 in your account at Heritage Sports.

You love 4 teams and so you put it all on a 4 team parlay - $1,000 to win $11,000. Your first 3 games are day games and they all win.

Your final game is the Sunday Night NFL game. You have the Rams –3 1/2. Now if the Rams cover you win $11,000. If they don't you lose $1,000. You basically have the Rams – 3 1/2 $1,000 to win $11,000 (because your other 3 teams won).

Well, since the first 3 games have finished, you've had some time to think that you may not be willing to “ make it or break it ” for $11,000 on just 1 play. Yes you love the Rams but $11,000 is a lot of cheese!

You can decide to HEDGE your bet with us by wagering, for example, $3,000 on the Rams opponent + 3 1/2. This way if the Rams lose you would still make $2,000 (the $3,000 you bet less the $1,000 you lose on the parlay). But if the Rams win, you will make $7,700 (the $11,000 less the $3,300 you bet as a Hedge on the Rams opponents). YOU CAN'T LOSE!!!!

Here is the problem with this scenario at other sportsbooks. If all you had was the $1,000 you bet on the 4 teamer, you have no credit to bet the $3,000 on the Rams opponent.

This is where Heritage Sports “Hedge Play” helps you. We will allow you to “hedge play” the opponent for $3,000 because if it loses, you still win $11,000 on the Rams which would allow you to pay the $3,300 from your $3,000 “hedge play.” If the Rams lose, you will win $3,000 on that bet. You just can't lose with Heritage Sports “Hedge Plays!”

The above is an example of the many options Heritage Sports offers, where you get more “ bang for your buck.” -----




The parlay was $90 to win $10,676 and I guaranteed profit by playing R. Federer @ -4890 for $7335 to win $150.

The way I read the rules above and still read the rules above are following situations:

I win the parlay so $10,676 - $7335(Federer hedge) = $3,341
Federer wins so $7,335+$150 = $ 7485


Well when Federer won, I was credited with $150 and nothing else. I did not see anywhere in the rules or when I called to place the hedge play about the risk amount not being included. I asked Lou to provide where it states that in the rules and he stated "It is spelled out pretty clearly"

Here is my issue: Where is it spelled out clearly? The way that Lou is saying it should be is just like a freeplay wager so I decided to ask a HS employee the rules for a FP and here is the chat:

19:29:51 [JJ] Thank you for contacting Heritage Sports, how may I help you today?
19:29:53 [] Can you give me the rules for Freeplays
19:31:16 [JJ] Rules in regards to what you can play?
19:31:40 [] just the rules in general..like how it works or whatever you have written
19:36:01 [JJ] You can play it only on sportsbook.
19:36:21 [JJ] max 3 team teaser or parlay over the web
19:36:34 [JJ] If you win it only the winning go into your account.
19:36:44 [JJ] They do have a rollover
19:37:09 [] Thanks JJ
19:37:14 [] That is all I needed to hear

So the Freeplay says that only the winnings go into your account then why doesn't the hedge play rules say the same thing???????

Before the professionals/long term winning bettors/etc say that it is 'common sense' it is also common sense to not drink bleach but it is still included on the side of the bottle.

The part that really bothered me was that Heritage Sports basically said 'No, sorry' and did not even offer any type of 'offer' to resolve the issue for both sides. HS use to be amazing with customer service but now my one foot is out the door.

So I ask anyone that reads this issue, do I have a point? Shouldn't the rules be clearer and add the rules above read something similar to this...(like the FP rules)

"If the Rams lose, you will win $3,000 on that bet. Risk amount is not added to balance on a hedge play win. (Account will be credited with $3,000 not $3300+$3000)

The statement "you will win $3,000 on that bet" does not mean you will only get $3,000. If I bet $110 to win $100 on a wager then I would say I won $100 on that bet but that doesn't mean the $110 isn't credited to my account as well.



I appreciate anyone's thoughts/opinions/etc

[Kaabee]

how do you figure you still get the 7335?

[walkingman]

I am assuming that you think my complaint is not valid which is fine. I am looking for everyone's opinion on this issue

[Kaabee]

you're parlay lost. there is no 7335.

[walkingman]

you're parlay lost. there is no 7335.

Did you read the above about a Hedge play? I am aware the parlay lost, that was the point of a hedge play. I am questioning the wording of how a Hedge play works and where it does not state the risk amount is not included in the win. If you read above, I won the hedge play but was only credited with the win amount($150) but it does not state anything about risk amount not included like the FP rules do.

[BHS]

Did that 4th team win as well?

If you didn't try to hedge it, were you gonna win?

[Kaabee]

Did that 4th team win as well?

If you didn't try to hedge it, were you gonna win?

federer was the 4th. you can't hedge until the last leg. 10k mistake. no biggie.

[Keith Richard]

When they give you their example of a hedge play they tell you if you hedged 3300 to win 3000 you would win 2000 after deducting the 1000 risked on the parlay. They don't say if the parlay loses you win 5300 .(3300 to win 3000 minus 1000)

[walkingman]

Did that 4th team win as well?

If you didn't try to hedge it, were you gonna win?

No, the 4th team/person lost and the 'hedge play' won which is why I am disputing the rules of the hedge play where it does not state winnings only like it does with the FP rules. The hedge play was $7335 to win $150 and I was only credited with $150.

I know it is a lot to read above so if anyone has any questions, please ask because I would love to hear everyone's opinions.

[Kaabee]

with your logic, books would get destroyed. just include a massive dog as your last leg of every parlay. then just turn around and hedge the full amount on a massive favorite and keep all the winnings.

[walkingman]

federer was the 4th. you can't hedge until the last leg. 10k mistake. no biggie.

That is not correct. The last leg was not Federer; it was his opponent. Federer was the hedge play

[Kaabee]

That is not correct. The last leg was not Federer; it was his opponent. Federer was the hedge play

obviously.

[Kaabee]

lets do a simple example.

2 team parlay. Mets +100 against the Cubs. Davydenko +2000 against Federer. 100 to win 4100.

Mets win. Why not then just hedge everything on Federer at -3000? Do you see why this would be bad for the books if you got to keep the risk amount?

[walkingman]

lets do a simple example.

2 team parlay. Mets +100 against the Cubs. Davydenko +2000 against Federer. 100 to win 4100.

Mets win. Why not then just hedge everything on Federer at -3000? Do you see why this would be bad for the books if you got to keep the risk amount?

I completely see your point now Kaabee but it doesn't say anything about winnings only on the wager amount. (At least that is not how I have read it) I feel that the wording is vague and should be black and white like the Freeplay where it says "Winning amount only"

[cloverfield]

I'm going to assume this is some kind of gag thread?
You really think they are going to "float" you the $7000+ and you win that either way??

You thought "hey if Federer at -4890 wins, I'll still get the 7000 they floated me back, plus the $150"

Even in the example you read, "Rams which would allow you to pay the $3,300 from your $3,000 “hedge play.” If the Rams lose, you will win $3,000 on that bet." they are not saying you would win $6300...because the original $3,300 is not included...They are in NO WAY implying you win the "floated" amount.

Is this real life??? The wording is NOT VAGUE in any way.. YOU misunderstood it...big difference

[walkingman]

Heritage Insider -

I know that your company would like a resolution to this issue as much as I would. I would love to have a PM from you and come to a resolution so I will continue to stay at your company. Whether we agree to disagree on the wording, I am sure we can come to a resolution that benefits us both instead of hearing "No, sorry you are wrong."

I appreciate any responses/opinions already and any other opinions after this comment

[walkingman]

I'm going to assume this is some kind of gag thread?
You really think they are going to "float" you the $7000+ and you win that either way??

You thought "hey if Federer at -4890 wins, I'll still get the 7000 they floated me back, plus the $150"

Is this real life??? The wording is NOT VAGUE in any way.. YOU misunderstood it...big difference

Thank you for your opinion. Maybe it was a 50% misunderstanding and 50% bad wording. Either way, I do appreciate anything anyone has to add to this conversation. I will take 50% blame on this issue and I hope that Heritage Insider will shoot me a PM

[mtneer1212]

Sorry walkingman - You were properly credited. Next time of course, you could put up the cash to hedge your bet........

[walkingman]

Sorry walkingman - You were properly credited. Next time of course, you could put up the cash to hedge your bet........

Thank you for the opinion. I completely understand now how 'floating' $7,000 does not make any sense but I still cannot get past the rules not stating 'winnings only'

[cloverfield]

Thank you for your opinion. Maybe it was a 50% misunderstanding and 50% bad wording. Either way, I do appreciate anything anyone has to add to this conversation. I will take 50% blame on this issue and I hope that Heritage Insider will shoot me a PM

Even in the example you read, "Rams which would allow you to pay the $3,300 from your $3,000 “hedge play.” If the Rams lose, you will win $3,000 on that bet." they are not saying you would win $6300...because the original $3,300 is not included...They are in NO WAY implying you win the "floated" amount.

They can't word EVERY POSSIBLE OUTCOME... in some scenarios common sense has to be applied as well. If you were on the outside looking in on this one you'd completely understand.. It's difficult because you "thought" you were going to have $7,000 credited.. it was just never the case and it's a huge let down for you.

get 'em next time bro
Even Emily Haines is going to agree with me on this one

[walkingman]

Even in the example you read, "Rams which would allow you to pay the $3,300 from your $3,000 “hedge play.” If the Rams lose, you will win $3,000 on that bet." they are not saying you would win $6300...because the original $3,300 is not included...They are in NO WAY implying you win the "floated" amount.

I understand what you are saying but if you place a $110 wager to win $100, do you say I won $210 or do you say I won $100?

[BackDoorCover]

I'm going to assume this is some kind of gag thread?
You really think they are going to "float" you the $7000+ and you win that either way??

You thought "hey if Federer at -4890 wins, I'll still get the 7000 they floated me back, plus the $150"

Even in the example you read, "Rams which would allow you to pay the $3,300 from your $3,000 “hedge play.” If the Rams lose, you will win $3,000 on that bet." they are not saying you would win $6300...because the original $3,300 is not included...They are in NO WAY implying you win the "floated" amount.

Is this real life??? The wording is NOT VAGUE in any way.. YOU misunderstood it...big difference

This

[walkingman]

Even in the example you read, "Rams which would allow you to pay the $3,300 from your $3,000 “hedge play.” If the Rams lose, you will win $3,000 on that bet." they are not saying you would win $6300...because the original $3,300 is not included...They are in NO WAY implying you win the "floated" amount.

They can't word EVERY POSSIBLE OUTCOME... in some scenarios common sense has to be applied as well. If you were on the outside looking in on this one you'd completely understand.. It's difficult because you "thought" you were going to have $7,000 credited.. it was just never the case and it's a huge let down for you.

get 'em next time bro
Even Emily Haines is going to agree with me on this one

Thanks Cloverfield for the opinion. Shouldn't they word every possible outcome? Wouldn't that be ideal for something like this even if it is 'common sense' for any decent bettor?

Although, I am still upset over the whole situation, I do appreciate the opinions on where I may have misread information.

[cloverfield]

I understand what you are saying but if you place a $110 wager to win $100, do you say I won $210 or do you say I won $100?

Last reply on this subject.
It's not a straight wager.. it's a Hedge Play.
If it's a free play you win $100, if it's real money you win $210... You're trying to fit a circle in a square hole buddy.

You didn't understand it properly. It is explained properly in the example you yourself quoted from Heritage!!!!!
Heritage example: $3,300 to win $3,000 on the Rams in a Hedge Play... you win $3,000 (only the win amount)
Your scenario: $7,335 to win $150...you got credited the $150

pretty simple!

[wrongturn]

When you use "Special Hedge Play", you essentially borrow money from Heritage to bet on the hedge play. After all bets are settled, you need to return the borrowed money. The reason why Heritage allows you to borrow in this case is because you have built up equity in the parlay. Just like you own a house, after 10 years of mortgage, you have built up some equity in your house, which bank allows you to get a loan from it, but you still need to pay back the loan eventually.

[walkingman]

Last reply on this subject.
It's not a straight wager.. it's a Hedge Play.
If it's a free play you win $100, if it's real money you win $210... You're trying to fit a circle in a square hole buddy.

You didn't understand it properly. It is explained properly in the example you yourself quoted from Heriatge!!!!!

Right but where does it state in the example that the hedge play is basically a freeplay. Like I said earlier, I understand how floating $7,000 does not make sense but I still cannot get past any direct wording for 'winnings only'

I may have read the rules wrong but in my opinion, rules should be black and white without any chance of something like this.

Thanks again everyone.

[walkingman]

When you used "Special Hedge Play", you essentially borrow money from Heritage to bet on the hedge play. After all bets are settled, you need to return the borrowed money. The reason why Heritage allows you to borrow in this case is because you have built up equity in the parlay. Just like you own a house, after 10 years of mortgage, you have built up some equity in your house, which bank allows you could get a loan from it, but you still need to pay back the loan eventually.

I understand your example and I feel like something that 'basic' should be included in the rules. I am assuming that everyone so far feels like the rules were basic enough but I guess they are not basic enough for me.

[KGambler]

<sub>walkingman, you are completely in the wrong here. The problem is that you thought you had massive equity in your parlay because there was only one leg to go. But the last leg was a HUGE underdog. The listed "win amount" made you feel like you had a big win locked up with one game to go. In reality, you only had about $200 of equity. About 3% of the time you would win $10,600, and 97% of the time you would simply lose your $90. You do not have much equity. The payout amount is only so large because you have a tiny chance of winning.

You are completely in the wrong. What you are asking for is insane. It is totally unreasonable.

The example they give (which you quoted) also makes it clear that you do not get the "risk amount" added to your account.

This has been explained to you already but you still don't get it.

Here's another way to look at it...

Let's say you had a 2 team parlay, risk 1000 to win 2600. You win the first game. You are now risking $1000 to win $2600 on the last game. If it's a coinflip, you have $800 of equity. 50% of the time you lose $1000, 50% you win $2600.

By your logic, you could use this mythical super hedging strategy to risk $1100 to win $1000, ensuring that you win $1500 or $2100. Can't you see how stupid this is?

The smartest thing you can do is apologize to Heritage and beg SBR to delete this thread.</sub>

[wrongturn]

I understand your example and I feel like something that 'basic' should be included in the rules. I am assuming that everyone so far feels like the rules were basic enough but I guess they are not basic enough for me.

Of course you can argue about it, but you won't win this case in any court. The purpose of rules is to state the non-obvious things so that people won't be surprised. If rules have to state all the obvious things, then you will have to read a thick book every time opening an account.

[walkingman]

<sub>walkingman, you are completely in the wrong here. The problem is that you thought you had massive equity in your parlay because there was only one leg to go. But the last leg was a HUGE underdog. The listed "win amount" made you feel like you had a big win locked up with one game to go. In reality, you only had about $200 of equity. About 3% of the time you would win $10,600, and 97% of the time you would simply lose your $90. You do not have much equity. The payout amount is only so large because you have a tiny chance of winning.

You are completely in the wrong. What you are asking for is insane. It is totally unreasonable.

The example they give (which you quoted) also makes it clear that you do not get the "risk amount" added to your account.

This has been explained to you already but you still don't get it.

Here's another way to look at it...

Let's say you had a 2 team parlay, risk 1000 to win 2600. You win the first game. You are now risking $1000 to win $2600 on the last game. If it's a coinflip, you have $800 of equity. 50% of the time you lose $1000, 50% you win $2600.

By your logic, you could use this mythical super hedging strategy to risk $1100 to win $1000, ensuring that you win $1500 or $2100. Can't you see how stupid this is?

The smartest thing you can do is apologize to Heritage and beg SBR to delete this thread.</sub>

Thank you for the opinion. I am not going to have this thread deleted even if everyone has laughed at the my train of thought. I understand almost everyone's examples in this thread and they would have been helpful before the parlay.

[brendon]

Thanks Cloverfield for the opinion. Shouldn't they word every possible outcome? Wouldn't that be ideal for something like this even if it is 'common sense' for any decent bettor?

Although, I am still upset over the whole situation, I do appreciate the opinions on where I may have misread information.

as you said, you're still upset over the whole situation and i think it's affecting your reasoning. you have absolutely no ground in this situation.

[walkingman]

Of course you can argue about it, but you won't win this case in any court. The purpose of rules is to state the non-obvious things so that people won't be surprised. If rules have to state all the obvious things, then you will have to read a thick book every time opening an account.

Good thoughts

[walkingman]

as you said, you're still upset over the whole situation and i think it's affecting your reasoning. you have absolutely no ground in this situation.

Thanks Brendon. I am upset over the situation and to add more frustration was that Heritage Sports did not even try to resolve the issue. Even if I am 100% wrong as many people have stated in this thread, why not try to please the customer? It is obvious that I will not receive the full amount from the risk(~$7,000) but why not try to offer something?

[walkingman]

I am surprised that not a single person has stated that they could see my point of view even the slightest bit but I posted this thread to hear everyone's opinion regardless if I am thrown under the bus.

[KGambler]

Here's a better example.

Let's say you bet $350 at +3000 on Federer's opponent... $350 to win $10,500. Just a single bet.

And you decide you don't like your bet. By your logic, you can hedge bet $8,000 at -4000 on Federer to win $200, thus ensuring you win either $7850 or $2500. All without having won a single bet...

Yes, it makes no sense whatsoever.

The key is that you had about $200 positive equity in your parlay, not $7,000.

You BORROWED $7K to bet on Federer. You don't get to keep what you borrowed. When you bet your own money, it goes back into your account when you win. When you bet Heritage's money, they take it back when you win.