[makaveli66]

Chill tfo. If you kill any amount of people and then kill yourself, that's ALWAYS legit. RIP Ted Bundy. Yes, I relate.

[Jayvegas420]

LGR, are you taking the position that if the officers had decided to NOT place him under arrest & allowed him to carry on his way he would have dropped dead moments later?
Of the causes cited in the autopsy?

[Let's Go Rangers]

LGR, are you taking the position that if the officers had decided to NOT place him under arrest & allowed him to carry on his way he would have dropped dead moments later?
Of the causes cited in the autopsy?

Not at all
He put himself in a more stress filled position by resisting arrest.

Had he not given the police a reason to arrest him, he would not have been arrested and given himself a heart attack.

[Jayvegas420]

That's quite the slippery slope you paint!!!
If this, then this would/wouldn't have happened....
In the video I saw the cops were controlling the situation, not the wrongfully arrested citizen.

Didn't appear he gave them any reason to be placed under arrest but. That's just my opinion & I wasn't there so, my opinion is irrelevant, as is yours.

I was just making sure that you werent saying the cops had absolutely NOTHING to do with his Inevitable death.

[Let's Go Rangers]

That's quite the slippery slope you paint!!!
If this, then this would/wouldn't have happened....
In the video I saw the cops were controlling the situation, not the wrongfully arrested citizen.

Didn't appear he gave them any reason to be placed under arrest but. That's just my opinion & I wasn't there so, my opinion is irrelevant, as is yours.

I was just making sure that you werent saying the cops had absolutely NOTHING to do with his Inevitable death.

Cops did have something to do with his death, it was a homicide, just wasn't a crime.

I also don't know if it would have been a justified arrest....

That's what lawyers and courts would have decided if the guy just complied and went away peacefully

[Jayvegas420]

fair enough. Which leads to my next question, if police officers in your community conducted themselves this way, would you feel safer?

[Kermit]

It's a shame that this guy died, and I don't think that he deserved to die that day, but the way they took him down and tried to subdue him appeared to be far less brutal than laying his head open with multiple baton blows.

[Let's Go Rangers]

fair enough. Which leads to my next question, if police officers in your community conducted themselves this way, would you feel safer?

Yes

[gummo]

In comparison to the Michael Brown incident this was indeed troubling. After viewing the tape a few times it's clear to see it should have been handled way better. Also keep in mind that he is being arrested for supposedly selling "loose cigs". The guy was no angel after being arrested many many times for the same thing but the cops clearly went overboard. Even when he is saying he can't breathe they don't care at all.

I agreed with the Michael Brown non-indictment but this should have resulted in SOMETHING.

Totally agree with this.

[Jayvegas420]

Yes

Do you think that's because you're white?

White, black, Hispanic or asian, I think if this rolled down the main street of your city, you be kinda scared:

[Jayvegas420]

Totally agree with this.

So, thank god that police forces are becoming militarized so that they can protect us from loose cigarette vendors.
Our most dangerous felons, BTW!!

[Let's Go Rangers]

Do you think that's because you're white?

White, black, Hispanic or asian, I think if this rolled down the main street of your city, you be kinda scared:

Why do you assume I'm white?

Also the video I saw didn't show police like that restraining Gardner.

I must have seen an edited video, do you have a link to the full video?

Thanks

[The Kraken]

The guy should not have resisted, whether there was probable cause for an arrest or not. Until people can admit and understand that, I think it's hard to address where there can be improvement. It's impossible to move forward in the discussion until Garners supporters emphatically state 100% that he should not have resisted. And truth told, from a pretty liberal guy, he absolutely should not have resisted. And if he didn't, he'd probably still be alive today.

If everyone can start there, we could get a lot more accomplished. Because the real discussion is whether the officers actions were appropriate even in light of Garner not complying with their commands.

[Let's Go Rangers]

The guy should not have resisted, whether there was probable cause for an arrest or not. Until people can admit and understand that, I think it's hard to address where there can be improvement. It's impossible to move forward in the discussion until Garners supporters emphatically state 100% that he should not have resisted. And truth told, from a pretty liberal guy, he absolutely should not have resisted. And if he didn't, he'd probably still be alive today.

If everyone can start there, we could get a lot more accomplished. Because the real discussion is whether the officers actions were appropriate even in light of Garner not complying with their commands.

100% correct


Let's face it, if the guy was a 20 something that the police had never come across either, he probably gets sent up the street.

The reason this guy got scrutinized is he is well known by the police and has been arrested a bunch of times.

[brooks85]

lol I don't know what is more comical, your proven flawed logic or that fact you just quoted someone who thinks global warming is real.

[Big Bear]

Autopsies

Those are the biggest joke around. Completely unreliable and inconsistent. What a crap shoot

I have seen dozens done and have first hand experience with them on a family member.

How they're even admissible is Beyond me

sometimes its pretty obvious no?

[The Kraken]

lol I don't know what is more comical, your proven flawed logic or that fact you just quoted someone who thinks global warming is real.

Good contribution.

[ttrace35]

I hope a cop gets murdered tonight

[The Kraken]

I hope a cop gets murdered tonight

Regardless of color?

[ttrace35]

Tracer hates cops. Don't care what color

[The Kraken]

Ok, so I just watched the video for the first time

Here's my impressions.

The cop did apply a chokehold. It lasted 13 seconds. The chokehold was 100% suffocating as there is not a noise made by Garner for the 13 seconds it's applied. He was talking just before he got taken down and immediately after the chokehold was released, this is pretty clear evidence to me that the chokehold completely occluded his airway for 13 seconds. When he says "I can't breathe", he ain't joking. I've been in medicine for 15 years and have taken care of many, many people with asthma and COPD attacks that are on deaths door steps and this is what they sound like just before they die. He's gasping for air just to say "I can't breathe". After he says he can't breathe, there was another 17 seconds of the cop pushing his head into the ground further complicating the medical issue.

Now, I feel very comfortable saying that Eric Garner died of an acute asthma attack or a laryngeal spasm that was caused by the chokehold applied by the officer. Personally, I feel everything above is beyond discussion. However I understand how someone could argue how tight the chokehold was. But going completely silent when being choked is a sign of complete airway occlusion. Also, the fact he literally couldn't breathe after the choke indicates it was very tight. Add in he apparently just broke up a fight and was walking down the street indicates normal exertion is not a problem for him, it would take something else like this chokehold to really push him over the edge. And it did. Everything points to this chokehold being completely occlusive.

With that said it's really all about whether or not you believe Garner deserved to be taken down and whether the chokehold was appropriate.

I've already said Garner should not have resisted and stand by this. But beyond this, I also think prior to it escalating to this point, the officers should have just written him a ticket and let the courts sort out the problem.

Ultimately my final verdict is contributory negligence and both parties are guilty. I would have absolutely indicted him and let a jury figure everything else out. But I feel very strongly he should have at least been indicted. I don't feel near as strongly as whether I would find him guilty of anything at trial. But I think it should have went.

[ttrace35]

http://murderpedia.org/male.W/w/wilson-ronell.htm

This happened only a couple blocks from where Eric Garner was murdered. When Staten Island was real. My hero

[Let's Go Rangers]

Ok, so I just watched the video for the first time

Here's my impressions.

The cop did apply a chokehold. It lasted 13 seconds. The chokehold was 100% suffocating as there is not a noise made by Garner for the 13 seconds it's applied. He was talking just before he got taken down and immediately after the chokehold was released, this is pretty clear evidence to me that the chokehold completely occluded his airway for 13 seconds. When he says "I can't breathe", he ain't joking. I've been in medicine for 15 years and have taken care of many, many people with asthma and COPD attacks that are on deaths door steps and this is what they sound like just before they die. He's gasping for air just to say "I can't breathe". After he says he can't breathe, there was another 17 seconds of the cop pushing his head into the ground further complicating the medical issue.

Now, I feel very comfortable saying that Eric Garner died of an acute asthma attack or a laryngeal spasm that was caused by the chokehold applied by the officer. Personally, I feel everything above is beyond discussion. However I understand how someone could argue how tight the chokehold was. But going completely silent when being choked is a sign of complete airway occlusion. Also, the fact he literally couldn't breathe after the choke indicates it was very tight. Add in he apparently just broke up a fight and was walking down the street indicates normal exertion is not a problem for him, it would take something else like this chokehold to really push him over the edge. And it did. Everything points to this chokehold being completely occlusive.

With that said it's really all about whether or not you believe Garner deserved to be taken down and whether the chokehold was appropriate.

I've already said Garner should not have resisted and stand by this. But beyond this, I also think prior to it escalating to this point, the officers should have just written him a ticket and let the courts sort out the problem.

Ultimately my final verdict is contributory negligence and both parties are guilty. I would have absolutely indicted him and let a jury figure everything else out. But I feel very strongly he should have at least been indicted. I don't feel near as strongly as whether I would find him guilty of anything at trial. But I think it should have went.

Your analysis omits a critical point

While the "chokehold without breath" may have lasted 13 seconds, Garner WAS CONSCIOUS .

as he is being rolled over onto his stomach and office then remounts to side of head, Garner is moving his arms and cops grabbing at arms to try to cuff up ( at this point "I can't breathe " starts )

If he was conscious to "flail" he wasn't completely deprived of oxygen

[The Kraken]

Ya, I just don't think we'll see eye to eye on this. And that's ok. Like I said earlier, I don't think I could find the officer guilty in a trial. But on a grand jury I would probably have sent him to trial.

We've beaten the dead horse and seem to have found some common ground on the last two cases LGR, I'm happy to leave it at that.

[ttrace35]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/12...ed-to-survive/

this is what I like to see

[pronk]

He should get extra pay from the Department of Sanitation for taking out the garbage

Someone should find that dumb laposta flatfoot where he lives and chokes him to death.

[itchypickle]

Just watched the COPS episode from tonight on SPIKE. First segment was in Iowa, two white cops show up to a call with a black man and a white man fighting...they did the choke hold restraint on the white man to get him to the floor and then put a knee to his throat to cuff him....happens every day. Guy didn't die on the episode because he wasn't a fat ass diabetic with chronic heart disease and asthma....just like Garner did;t die the 31 other times he was arrested in the past nor taken into custody during his 2.5 year prison stretch. That day was just his day.

[Let's Go Rangers]

Just watched the COPS episode from tonight on SPIKE. First segment was in Iowa, two white cops show up to a call with a black man and a white man fighting...they did the choke hold restraint on the white man to get him to the floor and then put a knee to his throat to cuff him....happens every day. Guy didn't die on the episode because he wasn't a fat ass diabetic with chronic heart disease and asthma....just like Garner did;t die the 31 other times he was arrested in the past nor taken into custody during his 2.5 year prison stretch. That day was just his day.

The procedure used by the "takedown cop" and those that were with him occur across the USA a thousand times a day.

Rarely results in more than bumps and bruises.

Comply = no injuries

Resist = risk of injuries to Cop or skel

[k2ds]

There several problems in both cases. 1) Uniformed officers deal in the scale of crime in most cases such as the crimes of strong arm robbery and selling cigarettes with out tax, which is $5.85 per a pack of twenty. 2) Both suspects failed to comply with the officer. 3) One reached into a police vehicle which will get you hurt 100% of the time. 3) A chokehold is against the policy of the NYPD but is not illegal in New York state or any other state, but it is largely discouraged, but again not illegal. 4) One of the tests of proper breathing is if the person can speak. 5) And the one that no one but an officer understands, no matter what a suspect says or does makes no difference if it is not what he is being instructed to do. A 6'4" 294 lb man can be walking toward you with no visible weapon and with his hands raised but if he does not stop advancing some type of force is going to be used and since he was already shot once the odds are that is going to continue to be the method of force.
The shame is 2 men died when their actions and the police response could have been different.

[itchypickle]

The procedure used by the "takedown cop" and those that were with him occur across the USA a thousand times a day.

Rarely results in more than bumps and bruises.

Comply = no injuries

Resist = risk of injuries to Cop or skel

Exactly. Much to do about nothing. Heard a stat by one of the attorneys earlier and they said out of 14 million arrests there were 300 deaths (deaths not murder by cops) so do the math on the probability there. But to listen to these protestors and media you'd think cops are lining up in bushes and just mowing down unsuspecting black youths as they cross the street for sport. Much easier to sit at a news desk and complain vs work 12 hour shifts in the projects and streets day to day for years.

[ttrace35]

I want to beat a pile of shit down let's go Rangers leg.

[The Kraken]

There several problems in both cases. 1) Uniformed officers deal in the scale of crime in most cases such as the crimes of strong arm robbery and selling cigarettes with out tax, which is $5.85 per a pack of twenty. 2) Both suspects failed to comply with the officer. 3) One reached into a police vehicle which will get you hurt 100% of the time. 3) A chokehold is against the policy of the NYPD but is not illegal in New York state or any other state, but it is largely discouraged, but again not illegal. 4) One of the tests of proper breathing is if the person can speak. 5) And the one that no one but an officer understands, no matter what a suspect says or does makes no difference if it is not what he is being instructed to do. A 6'4" 294 lb man can be walking toward you with no visible weapon and with his hands raised but if he does not stop advancing some type of force is going to be used and since he was already shot once the odds are that is going to continue to be the method of force.
The shame is 2 men died when their actions and the police response could have been different.

Good post. I really don't have much to add or say other than your second #3, I'm not sure how you know a chokehold is against NYPD policy but if true, I appreciate the input. I would have been surprised if it were not. This could have been a big deal because if it was determined that it was indeed a chokehold, the officer would legally be on his own. The municipality would get off the hook. If a grand jury had indicted him, the discussion over whether it was a chokehold or not would have been a lot more pertinent. As it stands, it's all semantics now.

Criminal charges will not be brought against him which only leaves a civil case and that would really be about money. With NYC off the hook, no way anyone goes after a cop for $$$.

[Boner_18]

You're a dumb fukk. Breibart is a right wing blog. Same as fox news. Stop being such a sheep.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/12...ed-to-survive/

this is what I like to see

Stop being such a sheep.

[itchypickle]

Stop being such a sheep.

[brooks85]

https://news.yahoo.com/officer-says-...180226620.html

"At one point in his testimony, Damico said he recalled Pantaleo's arm being around Garner's "upper body." That description prompted Garner's widow, Esaw, to mutter: "Oh, come on.""









must be fun being a pos liberal