[sinmiedo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB2PbW1Yh7k

[blankoblanco]

That hurt to watch

[mpaschal34]

Last time I saw something like that is when an idiot with pocket 3's didn't call a $25 preflop raise and the flop came J,3,3.

[4uk4life]

When I read the title I thought you might have been watching me play Friday. That dude must play on SBR, he knows what's up with JJ

[USCPHILLYGUY]

Last time I saw something like that is when an idiot with pocket 3's didn't call a $25 preflop raise and the flop came J,3,3.

was playing .50/1.00 on PokerStars the other day....couple limpers to me with JJ so I raise to 5....button re-raises to 20 (been bullying in position all session) so I make it 65 - he calls......flop Ace blank blank I have about 210 left so shove all in........guy uses his whole time bank - shows me KK and folds! I show him my jacks and the guy goes nuts.....fun shit

[Triple_D_Bet]

Not sure I'd call that a terrible fold...guy raises/4bets big from EP, what do you expect to be ahead of with JJ? I'd say it was a good bluff, not a bad fold, regardless of outcome.

[sinmiedo]

Not sure I'd call that a terrible fold...guy raises/4bets big from EP, what do you expect to be ahead of with JJ? I'd say it was a good bluff, not a bad fold, regardless of outcome.

Trip I follow these players for a while , and part of the game is to read opponents range, trust me, the faro and bearew are the most looses players in the line up playing up tp 40% of the hands and play any 2 cards.
Is like playing poker with Boscokid Bitemyusa or me in loose night, we play anything for points of course.
I will post some more videos that you for sure will agree with me, at least, is a call for that much , he only needed to put 425 with a made hand prefolp. Again , personally, I never fold in that spot after seen the action in a cash game, in a torunament and near the money maybe, but not for cash, never!!!!
sin

[Triple_D_Bet]

Trip I follow these players for a while , and part of the game is to read opponents range, trust me, the faro and bearew are the most looses players in the line up playing up tp 40% of the hands and play any 2 cards.
Is like playing poker with Boscokid Bitemyusa or me in loose night, we play anything for points of course.
I will post some more videos that you for sure will agree with me, at least, is a call for that much , he only needed to put 425 with a made hand prefolp. Again , personally, I never fold in that spot after seen the action in a cash game, in a torunament and near the money maybe, but not for cash, never!!!!
sin

Everything changes with reads of course...but it's a lot more reliable to read raises than 3 bets, 3 bets than 4 bets, etc. due to frequency. JJ isn't a comfortable hand facing a raise/4bet even if the guy is loose; there's way too many ways the guy's got an over or two, and too many hands which are flipping or dominating you. You'd need a really, really good read with lots of experience to comfortably make that call...and it's easier to think you have that than actually have it in my opinion.

Calling 500 more preflop isn't really an option though...you can't call with JJ and let an A, K, Q come on flop and get you out of it. If you're calling/betting on an A/K/Q high flop anyways, might as well shove preflop right?

[sinmiedo]

i had the same situation this weekend and folded jj pre to an all in because the pot odds were not there 25 /200
and i had 300 behind, this case i played the way you would.but also took into the decision the tight player
that only played 3 hands in 5 orbits. however if he would have 4 bet , i would have call, as i always do with a made preflop hand.
i understand your analysis and totally respect it, maybe i gamble a bit more, not that much than you since we both carry the same winning average here in sbr,in my opinion you and I play almost the same style, tight aggressive with the same tournament strategist.
just look at the leader board and do some calculations,you and I have the best average.

[sinmiedo]

For the first time in a long time we are having an educational conversation about poker hands.
How nice finally do something that this sub forum was made for

POKER Discuss poker strategy, Online and Offline Poker Rooms and SBRpoker!

\thaks for the input TRIP

[ChuckyTheGoat]

sinner, u wanna see a crazy fold? Watch this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lN21wLFyv0

[Auto Donk]

Not sure I'd call that a terrible fold...guy raises/4bets big from EP, what do you expect to be ahead of with JJ? I'd say it was a good bluff, not a bad fold, regardless of outcome.

agree.... easy to get off the jacks there if you're playing solid, tag players who aren't going to be re-poppin it with 65 offsuit.....

if you knew the guy's style and figured he was like TDB or carseller or rudy or even big orange, you might re-raise..... (those are the only four guys I can think of at sbr who'd pop the 56 off..... maybe sin..... sin and tdb have busted my big pairs with 3 6 off reraises all in that I called only to take the bad beat....)

shows you really gotta have an understanding of the guys/women at your table.... if you don't know the player making that raise, getting off the jacks in the face of all that strength being shown by TWO players in front of you seems pretty easy to me......

now, if it's carsellar and rudy, I'm repoppin those jacks all in.....

(not with tdb or sin, as no matter what they have, they'll beat my f'n jacks)

[Auto Donk]

love those vids.... could wind up watching them all damn night.....

here's the same guy, making another fold that i'd make too on the river (i'd have bet the turn to avoid getting into the position he found himself in), but nevertheless, he's faced with a $3000+ decision on the river on whether to chase the nut flush......


he folds and the does what he absolutely should not have done.... rabbit trails the next two cards off the deck to see he'd have hit his f'n flush if he'd called......

two "bad" folds that I would have made as well under the circumstance.... but, like I said, once i check raise the flop, I'm committed to firing at the turn, as well......

[Triple_D_Bet]

i had the same situation this weekend and folded jj pre to an all in because the pot odds were not there 25 /200
and i had 300 behind, this case i played the way you would.but also took into the decision the tight player
that only played 3 hands in 5 orbits. however if he would have 4 bet , i would have call, as i always do with a made preflop hand.
i understand your analysis and totally respect it, maybe i gamble a bit more, not that much than you since we both carry the same winning average here in sbr,in my opinion you and I play almost the same style, tight aggressive with the same tournament strategist.
just look at the leader board and do some calculations,you and I have the best average.

No disrespect intended or taken sin! Bottom line is if you do it and you're ahead, it was the right move...as long as you're right often enough it's a winning move. As loose as I like to get (and as beneficial as aggression usually is), it's a far more dangerous tactic when it runs into strong resistance, and it doesn't get much stronger than a 4 bet. In my opinion, the difference between an aggressive winning player and a maniac is knowing when you're behind the likely range. The fact that that's so hard to do is what makes most people go tight and creates that opportunity for aggression in the first place!

KK I'm in here against any but the nittiest of the nitty...QQ/AK I'm in against somewhat looser players but thinking I have a small edge at best against their range. JJ needs an exceptionally solid read with lots of context for that to be the right call imo...in a situation like this, the gulf between QQ and JJ is huge; it's the difference between 2-4:1 odds and 1-2:1 odds for a lot of an aggro players bluffing/semi-bluffing range....that's a big deal in my book.

[Triple_D_Bet]

agree.... easy to get off the jacks there if you're playing solid, tag players who aren't going to be re-poppin it with 65 offsuit.....

if you knew the guy's style and figured he was like TDB or carseller or rudy or even big orange, you might re-raise..... (those are the only four guys I can think of at sbr who'd pop the 56 off..... maybe sin..... sin and tdb have busted my big pairs with 3 6 off reraises all in that I called only to take the bad beat....)

shows you really gotta have an understanding of the guys/women at your table.... if you don't know the player making that raise, getting off the jacks in the face of all that strength being shown by TWO players in front of you seems pretty easy to me......

now, if it's carsellar and rudy, I'm repoppin those jacks all in.....

(not with tdb or sin, as no matter what they have, they'll beat my f'n jacks)

Hah...my main point is that it's far easier to get in trouble calling an aggro player when he shows that much strength pre. If it's happening regularly than go for it, but especially when there's a call-in and you can get the information safely, that's the way to go (minus other context which could change everything of course)

[Auto Donk]

and, the guy had jacks..... we all know how that shit will go.... (most times it won't be quads)

[Auto Donk]

and, more fun with JJ, tho this in a little more serious vein.... still shows the problem with the damn jacks......

[Auto Donk]

and no dissertation on jacks would be complete without negreanu's three minute take on them......

[sinmiedo]

No disrespect intended or taken sin! Bottom line is if you do it and you're ahead, it was the right move...as long as you're right often enough it's a winning move. As loose as I like to get (and as beneficial as aggression usually is), it's a far more dangerous tactic when it runs into strong resistance, and it doesn't get much stronger than a 4 bet. In my opinion, the difference between an aggressive winning player and a maniac is knowing when you're behind the likely range. The fact that that's so hard to do is what makes most people go tight and creates that opportunity for aggression in the first place!

KK I'm in here against any but the nittiest of the nitty...QQ/AK I'm in against somewhat looser players but thinking I have a small edge at best against their range. JJ needs an exceptionally solid read with lots of context for that to be the right call imo...in a situation like this, the gulf between QQ and JJ is huge; it's the difference between 2-4:1 odds and 1-2:1 odds for a lot of an aggro players bluffing/semi-bluffing range....that's a big deal in my book.

Trip, I enjoy a poker analysis and hand conversation, especially with someone with good knowledge not only of the card game but the other aspect of the game. In my view I would have call to see since I have a made hand and my hand can only improve by hitting another J .
It is the other players that makes my call easier since I know their rage is enormous, and the pot was about 1500 dollars already, so .5 to 1 with a made hand preflop to hit a J or avoid any face card or A. You may disagree with me, but personally, I call not because of the JJ , just because of the players involved in the hand when he was the one raising so much.
Post flap I will play the players , but that is me, my calls, my money , my risk, and because of my reads of the players involved in the hand. I already give you more analysis that I would like, because I prefer not to detail a lot of my thinking process to the community here, however, when we meet again in Vegas, for sure will get into this again on a 1 to 1 bases, as good poker players do.
Sin

[Triple_D_Bet]

Trip, I enjoy a poker analysis and hand conversation, especially with someone with good knowledge not only of the card game but the other aspect of the game. In my view I would have call to see since I have a made hand and my hand can only improve by hitting another J .
It is the other players that makes my call easier since I know their rage is enormous, and the pot was about 1500 dollars already, so .5 to 1 with a made hand preflop to hit a J or avoid any face card or A. You may disagree with me, but personally, I call not because of the JJ , just because of the players involved in the hand when he was the one raising so much.
Post flap I will play the players , but that is me, my calls, my money , my risk, and because of my reads of the players involved in the hand. I already give you more analysis that I would like, because I prefer not to detail a lot of my thinking process to the community here, however, when we meet again in Vegas, for sure will get into this again on a 1 to 1 bases, as good poker players do.
Sin

Likewise sin, always refreshing to take a break from the usual entertaining (though repetitive) task of laughing at fools on this forum!

We certainly agree that the main reason to call is the guy 4 betting with an enormous range, and without knowing the history as well as the player (and you), I can't argue too firmly for a fold. My caution is that aggressive players are usually labeled as such by activities that are a lot weaker than a raise/4bet, and it's dangerous to assume they're as loose there as they are in general.

I don't see a call as a viable option; we don't have good odds to set mine, and not only is an A/K/Q on the flop somewhat likely, but anything lower than that could easily hit the lower end of his range for 2p, set, trips...and in all these situations, the pot is already too big to really find out where we are. If we think JJ is the best hand, best to get more or all of it in preflop.

Look forward to talking more in Vegas...I don't think we have to worry too much about poker chat around here though, the guys who have the desire and capacity to listen are already decent players!

[ChuckyTheGoat]

One admission...JJ is my favorite hand. Have had the most interesting runouts w/ JJ.

It can be a hidden hand. If u hit a set w/ JJ, I feel like you're more likely to get paid off. Jack is usually not the hi-card, so top pair of Ace or King may feel obliged to payoff.

AA or KK is normally accompanied by a massive bet, so opponents fold out to those hands. And if a guy does make set w/ those hands, they are smashing the board so hard that only a maniac would pay off to those hands.

[Triple_D_Bet]

One admission...JJ is my favorite hand. Have had the most interesting runouts w/ JJ.

It can be a hidden hand. If u hit a set w/ JJ, I feel like you're more likely to get paid off. Jack is usually not the hi-card, so top pair of Ace or King may feel obliged to payoff.

AA or KK is normally accompanied by a massive bet, so opponents fold out to those hands. And if a guy does make set w/ those hands, they are smashing the board so hard that only a maniac would pay off to those hands.

For set-mining, any argument that supports JJ is stronger for TT, 99, 88 etc. The difference is the quality as an overpair, where JJ is often in no better shape than 88 would be but inspires more confidence (and frequently more losses).

[Optional]

For set-mining, any argument that supports JJ is stronger for TT, 99, 88 etc. The difference is the quality as an overpair, where JJ is often in no better shape than 88 would be but inspires more confidence (and frequently more losses).