[Iceman]

I have theory and think I read elsewhere years ago that Pinny gets late action from other books who are "dumping money" on positions they (the other books) are heavy on. That is why you see a lot of movement late at Pinnacle on some games, especially if this is a "public side" with a lot of public money. Is this true? Do other known sportsbooks dump positions/bets at Pinnacle late ?

[Iceman]

Also what is their typical hold on a game (percentage wise)?

[Ibrakadabra]

Absolutely brilliant stuff, thanks SBR!!!

[donjuan]

Very informative, thanks SBR.

What it says to me is that "beating the Pinny closing line" is not and should not be the be-all and end-all of sports betting. Most (but not all) of the time, Pinny is just trying to get relatively balanced action; and as the interviewee said, many times they get sharp action on both sides of an event. So the idea that just because you beat the closing Pinny line doesn't automatically mean that you made a good bet, and vice versa as well -- just because you bet and the Pinny line moved against you doesn't automatically mean you made a bad bet. (Justin7, are you listening???)

Why aren't sharps pushing it back, though? For example, let's say an NBA game is -5 and you make the game -3 so you bet +5. Now a couple whales come in and bet -5 and the line moves to -5.5. If it doesn't move back to -5 or even moves further to -6, you're in trouble as the rest of the sharp money in the world doesn't agree with you or else they would push it back since +5.5 is significantly better than +5. The only time this can't happen is when the sheer volume of square money significantly outweighs sharp money (or sharp money's risk tolerance).

[brumbies]

John T, are you Simon Noble?

[Stumpage]

One of the more interesting threads I've seen here in quite some time...Good stuff....

[TobiasFunke]

LOL I cracked up @ 4:24 of the last video

[heyman]

One of the more interesting threads I've seen here in quite some time...Good stuff....

I haven't been around here lately but I must agree with this.

[pokerwhiz90]

this is some really good stuff. keep it up, interesting videos as well

[craigpb]

Great stuff; need to do this with every top book.

[protein]

Thank You SBR, great material. Looking for next episodes. Many good questions asked above already.

[HeeeHAWWWW]

Good stuff SBR, v interesting.

[bztips]

Why aren't sharps pushing it back, though? For example, let's say an NBA game is -5 and you make the game -3 so you bet +5. Now a couple whales come in and bet -5 and the line moves to -5.5. If it doesn't move back to -5 or even moves further to -6, you're in trouble as the rest of the sharp money in the world doesn't agree with you or else they would push it back since +5.5 is significantly better than +5. The only time this can't happen is when the sheer volume of square money significantly outweighs sharp money (or sharp money's risk tolerance).

It all depends on WHY the line is moving. As I said, the interviewee stated pretty strongly that it's not always due to sharp money. You don't typically see lines wobble back and forth even though there may be sharps on both sides, in your example between 5 and 5.5; even if your story was correct, it's very common for sharp money to come in very late -- too late for the book to make another line adjustment.

[ArcadeFire]

Awesome listening. Sorry though, I do not buy the "we don't specifically flag winning accounts" for their action.

Are all Pinny "traders" based at Pinny HQ?

[wrongturn]

Q: Do they use exchanges to balance their action? Calling traders imply so.

[loyd]

great stuff! i guess an interview with a trader from bookmaker is next as they are second in the list of A+ books.

[IrishTim]

Q: Do they use exchanges to balance their action? Calling traders imply so.

Not necessarily. Most Wall St. banks today focus on market making and providing liquidity (as opposed to proprietary trading), and yet these market makers refer to themselves as traders, even when dealing in primarily OTC markets. You balance your action by adjusting your prices relative to where the rest of the market is in order to attract action on the side you want.

[That Foreign Guy]

Question: Does John think that Pinnacle's reputation as the uber-sharp book actually hurts their volume? When Pinnacle is offering a line I'd have no hesitation slamming at another book(I'm talking soccer specifically but I feel the same way about most sports) I always have a moment of thinking twice, like "what do they know that I don't? Do I want to go against these guys?" and I don't always pull the trigger.

[CHUBNUT]

whats interesting is how many posters consider the interviews insightful when the guy basically said little more than common sense. Simple question would clear alot of debate, does pinny trade. Certainly their soccer moves suggest they do.

[LVHerbie]

Really good interview and looking forward to the second one...

[SparJMU]

Q) Pinnacle's 2nd half lines move very quickly, as do most books. Is this because the "traders" are reacting quickly to sharp money?

[Dark Horse]

Question.
- Can we have pictures of your building and offices?
- Who is the most senior trader, and what does he trade?

[Emily_Haines]

Q: Why is website is constantly timing out, not available or not working?
Q: Who decides what the opening limits are going to be when a spread is first made available for wagering?
Q: How come CBB totals not available for parlay wagering?
Q: How come when I try to make a bet and line changes I have to go all the way back and start over instead of an option to wager at current odds (like bookmaker has)?

[Dank_Fire]

How many players has Pinnacle kicked out for winning?

[donjuan]

It all depends on WHY the line is moving. As I said, the interviewee stated pretty strongly that it's not always due to sharp money. You don't typically see lines wobble back and forth even though there may be sharps on both sides, in your example between 5 and 5.5; even if your story was correct, it's very common for sharp money to come in very late -- too late for the book to make another line adjustment.

Please re-read my post as my response would be a virtual C&P job of what I wrote. As for the rest of your post, do you actually watch Pinny lines near close? They can "wobble" quite a bit and they move fairly frequently, so certainly they are adjusting to the very late money. The only time they wouldn't have time to move it would be if sharps were waiting until the very last second to make wagers and in doing so risk miss getting in their bets. That seems rather unlikely.

[Dark Horse]

How many players has Pinnacle kicked out for winning?

Is Tony from 5D among them?

[Bartmeister]

On last Wednesday's NBA game between Milwaukee/Washington the total at Pinny opened at 196.5. It was soon corrected but those that took the Under 196.5 had their wagers canceled due to it being a "bad" line. 02/09 10:44 196½ +105 / 196½ -116........02/09 10:55 188½ -105 / 188½ -105...... My question is why weren't these Under wagers honored and were they really copied from BetCris? And if so, why didn't Pinnacle know it was a bad line before they posted it (since it was off by 8 points)?

[DoctorGonzo]

It does all seem rather ad-hoc... I suppose that just shows the level of trust the company has in its traders (not like most UK books where the accountants are well and truly in charge ).

[Dank_Fire]

Is Tony from 5D among them?

Was thinking to ask the samething

[dj_destroyer]

I hope this puts an end to 'trap' games...

My question is... Does Pinny limit anyone ever? (Arbers, hedgers, constant winners, etc.)

[Brock Landers]

Pinny used to be the shit, but they are dead to me now

[BAUS]

Great job SBR and Loshak. Very interesting.

BAUS

[RickySteve]

Is Tony from 5D among them?

elohel

[RickySteve]

Peter, you magnificent leather-jacketed beast. MLB six weeks away, time to roll up our sleeves. Am I still 1st on the list for the sublet?

[LegitBet]

Loshak good camera presence and a bit redundant info wise. I know it's not as easy as it looks I was an on camera personality.
Pm me I would be happy to hit a few bullet points with you.