[guitarjosh]

Tell 'em boys. The economy isn't in the shitter because of the Pres, it's in the shitter because of the previous
8 years. Wall St and big banks were gambling with our money, on top of two unfunded wars and we had to
put up with little baby Repubs for 4 more years? WTF?

Here's a deal for you Repubs. After you vote for Mitt, click on every Dem for house and senate, why, because
he prides himself on working with them.

It's in the shitter because of all the top down micromanaging done by the gov't and fed. I'm for Obama because we're going to have a recession either way by 2016, and I want the democrat blamed this time.

[Fishhead]

It's in the shitter because of all the top down micromanaging done by the gov't and fed. I'm for Obama because we're going to have a recession either way by 2016, and I want the democrat blamed this time.

[CallMeChip]

The country is in better all-around shape since Obama has been in the oval office.

Less troops, no Osama any longer, stock market and housing recovering, Iowa farmland surging, saved auto industry.

Hell, four years from now, Obama may be regarded as top three President of all-time.

I wouldn't go as far as to place him in the top three but I don't think he is doing a bad job considering what he inherited. The main arguments people tend to make about Obama are the rate of unemployment and the deficit. These are the exact two arguments that go right out the window when you take into account the housing bubble and investment securities liquidation. It's just math. Did Obama spend more than he should have on things like Solyndra? Well that's up to public opinion, if their renewable energy source had revolutionized the market everyone would be calling him the savior of the world. It was an investment that didn't pan out. The truth is, for as much media attention as it has garnered, the $535 million that went to Solyndra means absolutely shit compared to the national energy budget. It's a drop in a $30 billion dollar bucket. Republicans like to try to find pressure points, however futile, and squeeze as much political power out of it as possible. The stimulus plan under Obama is responsible for the majority of cumulative debt. In all reality, this stimulus was 100 million percent absolutely necessary because of the structure of the American free market system and it's role in public equity investment.

What Republicans fail to realize is that for the last 100+ years the best barometer of the United States' economic health has been the stock market, and chiefly, the NYSE and NASDAQ markets, hence the spotlight on the Dow Jones. If you look at the status of the markets today in contrast to the market collapse of 2008 you can see the country is on a steady incline, or in layman's terms, we're constantly improving, however small the growth. As a result, unemployment as well is steadily improving or walking a straight line (August is first same rate month since 2010 i.e. no change), never getting worse, since 2010, which also indicates growth. Anyone who expects immediate growth or erasure of unemployment in less than 4-6 years in the situation provided by the bubble obviously has zero knowledge of economics or the American free market system.

Please feel free to state an opposing argument.

[guitarjosh]

What Republicans fail to realize is that for the last 100+ years the best barometer of the United States' economic health has been the stock market, and chiefly, the NYSE and NASDAQ markets, hence the spotlight on the Dow Jones. If you look at the status of the markets today in contrast to the market collapse of 2008 you can see the country is on a steady incline, or in layman's terms, we're constantly improving, however small the growth. As a result, unemployment as well is steadily improving or walking a straight line (August is first same rate month since 2010 i.e. no change), never getting worse, since 2010, which also indicates growth. Anyone who expects immediate growth or erasure of unemployment in less than 4-6 years in the situation provided by the bubble obviously has zero knowledge of economics or the American free market system.

Please feel free to state an opposing argument.

The problem is that over the past few decades, the stock market has been manipulated by the gov't and the Fed. In mid-late 2007, the stock market was hitting all time highs, yet we were in for a big fall.

[guitarjosh]

brilliant argument. We've never gone more than 10 years without a recession. By November 2016, it will be over 7 years since the last one would have ended, and we'll be due.

[CallMeChip]

The problem is that over the past few decades, the stock market has been manipulated by the gov't and the Fed. In mid-late 2007, the stock market was hitting all time highs, yet we were in for a big fall.

Very true Josh. The masquerade never lasts with a problem that big going on, hence it's power as barometer. You can draw a similarity to the dot com bubble, albeit much smaller. You're right about government manipulation. The problem had nothing to do with Obama, but it also had to do with a lot more than just George Bush. For the last thirty years, the county has been doing securities speculation so far outside its means and it finally caught up. Repealing Glass-Steagall was an incredible mistake and the general consensus on deregulation among the country's largest investment firms and banks opened the door to a flood of plastic personal wealth and unchecked lending. As far as the fed, the hands down biggest criminal in this play is Alan Greenspan, which is why most blame George Bush and his administration.

[Fishhead]

Chip, good reporting.

[slacker00]

Actually my info is accurate and a matter of record. Indeed the House and Senate were controlled by Democrats who spent a trillon dollars on things like Solendra before the electorate swept in the conservatives in 2010.

As far as filibusterers go, its up to the majority party to negotiate an acceptable deal. They could have but didn't. The Republicans did exactly what The People elected them to do which was to stop the Solendra type spending.

You can blame it on Bush or the minority party pre 2010 but at the end of the day Obama has no one to blame but himself. The only way to break a fillibuster is to give the minority party enough of what they are asking for. Obama is not a king. He cant cram legislation down the throats of the minority party if he doesn't have a fillibuster proof majority. Maybe he needs to read the Constitution.

Both parties are responsible, they are two factions of the corruption party.

[Thor4140]

The Republicans weren't going to negotiate a thing they were dead set on being contrary to anything that came out of Obama's mouth regardless if they had initially proposed it. Obama knows the Constitution better than you could ever hope to.

He doesn't get it and never will.. He has
solyndra

over a trillion dollars now He had the Keystone pipeline creating hundreds of thousands of jobs. Think about it who are the biggest enablers of the Oil companies. Dumb backwards Texigans who don't know any better that is who. Just those two things i listed are right wing talking points that are ridiculous but this incredibly gullible site owner believes them. This is what the country is up against. Unreachable people who believe everything they hear from Fox News and right wing radio. Over and over again these same mental midgets are polled to be the most misinformed Americans in the country. Could you imagine these same asshats just four short years ago, cried about us needing to get off of foreign oil and now they have a problem with every green product that comes down the pike? If it wasn't so sad it would be hilarious. He doesn't even know how to spell Solyndra because Fox only tells these naive nitwits about the so called trillion dollars it lost. They forgot to ask their gullible listeners to look up the spelling before they talk about it. he wants Obama to negotiate with a guy who said this. Priceless. Not jobs. Not jobs from this fella. He wants to make sure Obama is a one term president. Despicable. Just despicable.

[IMG][/IMG]

[Thor4140]

Trillion dollar loss OMG what a whopper

[BeerDog99]

I am sure that this will derided by the Republicans as a biased and incorrect analysis (to put it mildly) but to me whether all of the other information and analysis is right or wrong, just making the statement Mitch made, is case in point to putting country before party.

And that is just wrong....

[DwightShrute]

I am sure that this will derided by the Republicans as a biased and incorrect analysis (to put it mildly) but to me whether all of the other information and analysis is right or wrong, just making the statement Mitch made, is case in point to putting country before party.

And that is just wrong....

Mitch was right and history will prove it. When a moron like Obama passes obamacare behind closed doors without 1 single member of the GOP, signs in into law without even reading and during the campaign stood there several times, looked the American people right into their face and flat out lied when he said he could carry the health care debate live on c-span and that his administration would be the most transparent ever ..... then yes, people that love America should do what ever is necessary to make damn sure he never gets a second term.

Obama should take his Peace prize and long list of accomplishments failures and stick them you know where.

[CallMeChip]

It's very easy to see that it's not just either Republicans or Democrats doing the devil's work these days, but both. Politics in general in the United States over the last 50 years has changed from an office designed to promote an equal and healthy way of life for its citizens into opportunism at it's best. The wasteful spending and, by far absolutely worst of all, the unchecked lobbying and under the table funding to every government seat in the entire United States, has instituted this form of over the top sense of entitlement for politicians in an office that is supposed to be the least entitled post in government. Becoming a politician is supposed to be about a genuine love for your country and an overwhelming desire to fix its problems and help every single one of its citizens to the best of your ability. Lately it's become a marketplace for votes. It is a sad day for our once "greatest country in the world", that we are now middle of the road of end of the line in such things as education, healthcare, etc... I love my country, but it's pretty disgusting to consider how greedy we've become at the highest levels of business and politics (which are now one giant two-headed monster and not two separate entities).

[CallMeChip]

Mitch was right and history will prove it. When a moron like Obama passes obamacare behind closed doors without 1 single member of the GOP, signs in into law without even reading and during the campaign stood there several times, looked the American people right into their face and flat out lied when he said he could carry the health care debate live on c-span and that his administration would be the most transparent ever ..... then yes, people that love America should do what ever is necessary to make damn sure he never gets a second term.

Obama should take his Peace prize and long list of accomplishments failures and stick them you know where.

This actually isn't true. How did he pass it behind closed doors? The vote was 60-39 then 219-212, that seems like open doors to me. Why does he need a single member of the GOP to vote in favor? And actually he did receive one GOP vote in the Senate. Are you aware of how legislation gets passed?

[ACoochy]

This actually isn't true. How did he pass it behind closed doors? The vote was 60-39 then 219-212, that seems like open doors to me. Why does he need a single member of the GOP to vote in favor? And actually he did receive one GOP vote in the Senate. Are you aware of how legislation gets passed?

My thoughts exactly.

Don't understand y dwighty would want to try and pass himself off as a inbred southerner

[King Mayan]

This actually isn't true. How did he pass it behind closed doors? The vote was 60-39 then 219-212, that seems like open doors to me. Why does he need a single member of the GOP to vote in favor? And actually he did receive one GOP vote in the Senate. Are you aware of how legislation gets passed?

Fox news talking points.

[Thor4140]

Fox news talking points.

Mayan i recently got a rebate check (450)because of the affordable care act. These clowns all think it is bad because the people who instruct them to think it is bad are the same people who blow insurance companies cockks just to get their big campaign donation. The other sad part is that every single one of these assholes who is program to say they hate it, will take advantage of every single thing in it. Just the other day someone was telling me how bad it was but of course their child is now insured till 26 and they just couldn't afford to turn that little nugget down. Pathetic really. Out of one side of their mouth they hate something and out of the other they are the first to grab it. Just look at all those handouts that go to Texans. They love those handouts but talk about hating them. Maybe that is why they like Romney so much. He seems to talk their language. I think it is called flipflop 101.

[DwightShrute]

This actually isn't true. How did he pass it behind closed doors? The vote was 60-39 then 219-212, that seems like open doors to me. Why does he need a single member of the GOP to vote in favor? And actually he did receive one GOP vote in the Senate. Are you aware of how legislation gets passed?

yes he got one GOP member to vote. I stand corrected. My point is still valid

[CallMeChip]

yes he got one GOP member to vote. I stand corrected. My point is still valid

Do you mean the behind closed doors aspect? Or which part?

[DwightShrute]

Do you mean the behind closed doors aspect? Or which part?

the no GOP member part. One did get bribed to vote as did a couple democrats.

[CallMeChip]

Bribed? Do you mean because they were given something outside the scope of the legislation pertaining to their district? If that's a case you want to make, you are opening a can of worms too big for the GOP to ever close. I can document literally hundreds of misappropriated fund instances for personal benefit on both sides relating to pushing legislation, the majority of which ends up in GOP hands due to their lobbyists representing larger capital interests.

[DwightShrute]

Bribed? Do you mean because they were given something outside the scope of the legislation pertaining to their district? If that's a case you want to make, you are opening a can of worms too big for the GOP to ever close. I can document literally hundreds of misappropriated fund instances for personal benefit on both sides relating to pushing legislation, the majority of which ends up in GOP hands due to their lobbyists representing larger capital interests.

http://scottystarnes.wordpress.com/2...from-medicare/

http://www.rightsidenews.com/2010031...an-people.html

The Demcare bribe list - http://michellemalkin.com/2009/11/20...re-bribe-list/


1. Lies

* For months, Senators claimed there were no anti-gun provisions in the ObamaCare legislation. But everyone knew they were lying. So last month, a provision was inserted into the Senate bill which claims to allay the concerns of gun owners -- but leaves the most important problem unremedied. If they weren't lying to begin with, then why try to fix what they claimed wasn't there?

* Senators are now insisting that the current Senate health bill protects the rights of gun owners, even though this version would still allow the BATFE and FBI to troll through the ObamaCare database for gun owners who would be disqualified because of their medical information. This could result in millions of Americans -- who are suffering from PTSD and other similar conditions -- being put into the NICS system and denied the right to buy firearms.

2. Bribes

* A $100 million bribe to treat Sen. Ben Nelson's state different from all others, in exchange for Ben Nelson's vote.

* A $100-300 million bribe to treat Sen. Mary Landrieu's state different from all others, in exchange for Mary Landrieu's vote.

* $10 billion for community health centers operated by groups similar to ACORN, in exchange for Sen. Bernie Sanders' vote.

* A bribe to Sen. Max Baucus in order to treat Libby, Montana, different from any other town.

* A bribe to Sen. Chris Dodd consisting of a $100 million medical center in Connecticut.

* Bribes to Sens. Kent Conrad, Brian Dorgan, Bill Nelson, etc., etc., etc.

* In fact, there are so many bribes in the Senate version of the ObamaCare bill that the bribe-meister himself, Majority Leader Harry Reid, publicly bragged that if your senator doesn't have a bribe in this bill, it "speaks poorly" of him.

3. Extortion

* Threats to take away Sen. Joe Lieberman's chairmanship because of his opposition to the government run "public option."

4. Fraud

* Senators are claiming that the Senate-passed version reduces the deficit, even though:

a. $247 billion of the bill's costs are being snuck through in separate legislation;

b. The "savings" rely on $465 billion of Medicare "cuts," which no one believed were achievable; and

c. The "savings" rely on making new taxes take effect 3-5 years before any of those tax monies are spent.

* Senators are claiming that the bill would make Medicare solvent -- but this claim can only be made by fraudulently double-counting the effects of the phony Medicare cuts.

* Senators are claiming that health care costs would be brought under control, when the government's own Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services found that costs would go up $245 billion.

* Senators are claiming that premiums would be brought under control, even though the Congressional Budget Office found that policies under the "exchange" (i.e., those policies which you would have to buy, under penalty of law) would be 10-13% more expensive than if Congress did nothing.

5. Secrecy

* The final version of the 2407-page bill wasn't revealed until less than 48 hours before Congress began voting on it.

http://gunowners.org/a010710.htm

[CallMeChip]

Everything you just referred to as a "bribe" Dwight, is well known as bargaining. Do you really think that all states require the same funding as others in term of healthcare? C'mon man. You see, some states need more money than others, because they have more people, less resources, workers, etc.... If I say to you "Hey my state of California needs more money than Delaware. If you add more funding for California I'll sign the bill." You think that's a bribe? It's called economics. What do you think is the point of politicians working? That's their job.

When copy and pasting news sources please try to do so with bipartisanship. Michelle Malkin is a well-known ultra right wing conservative. Right Wing News and Gun Owners of America? Do I really have to explain what's wrong with those two...

[DwightShrute]

Everything you just referred to as a "bribe" Dwight, is well known as bargaining. Do you really think that all states require the same funding as others in term of healthcare? C'mon man. You see, some states need more money than others, because they have more people, less resources, workers, etc.... If I say to you "Hey my state of California needs more money than Delaware. If you add more funding for California I'll sign the bill." You think that's a bribe? It's called economics. What do you think is the point of politicians working? That's their job.

When copy and pasting news sources please try to do so with bipartisanship. Michelle Malkin is a well-known ultra right wing conservative. Right Wing News and Gun Owners of America? Do I really have to explain what's wrong with those two...

facts are facts despite what site they are from. Google it, there are tons more. I just took the first few and posted the links. Bargaining if it suites your party and bribing if its the other guys, right?. Funny how that works.

Michelle Malkin is a well-known ultra right wing conservative

so what? I know saying it is an attempt to some how deflect attention away from the actual facts. It doesn't work. It must suck to down in flames like you are. My advice: move on.

[CallMeChip]

facts are facts despite what site they are from. Google it, there are tons more. I just took the first few and posted the links. Bargaining if it suites your party and bribing if its the other guys, right?. Funny how that works.

Suits your party? Mike Johanns is the Republican senator from Nebraska, that money asked for by Ben Nelson would obviously help Johanns constituents as well. They work in the same state... I never claimed it was bribing at all? "Bribe" is a word used to spin a story, because "bargained for" doesn't sell as many newspapers. Ben Nelson doesn't put the money in his checking account, it becomes budgeted to his state.

[DwightShrute]

funny, I have a lot of liberal friends and we can discuss politics but some you obviously can't

[CallMeChip]

Am I not posing reasonable counterpoints?

[DwightShrute]

Am I not posing reasonable counterpoints?

not when it comes to your bribes and bargaining counter points.

Same as the "flip flopping" and "changing his position" we all here people say. It is what it is.

[CallMeChip]

not when it comes to your bribes and bargaining counter points.

Same as the "flip flopping" and "changing his position" we all here people say. It is what it is.

But by that rationale, a representative from any state cannot ask for more funding for their state in comparison to others because it will be construed as a bribe?

[mikemca]

Am I not posing reasonable counterpoints?

I don't think so.There is just no conversation that can be had with people that live in the right wing bubble.They get all their news and "facts" from extremely biased sources and when you don't agree with them they start calling you names.It really is pointless as they are literally brainwashed.

[DwightShrute]

I don't think so.There is just no conversation that can be had with people that live in the right wing bubble.They get all their news and "facts" from extremely biased sources and when you don't agree with them they start calling you names.It really is pointless as they are literally brainwashed.

Imagine how the people the right feel? I will tell you, it's 10X what you just said.

[PittsburghPlayer]

Hope the Mayan calendar brings a change. Obama sure the fukk didn`t. I voted for him but he can go fukk himself this time. Not voting for Romney either.
This country is starting to stink. Ton of shit wrong but the people are not united in much of anything but the love of money.
Yeah I wrote it, United States of America my Dick.

[DirkDiggs]

Wow. You guys are all missing the big picture.

[DirkDiggs]

The Demcare bribe list - http://michellemalkin.com/2009/11/20...re-bribe-list/

I hope we can all agree that you probably shouldnt listen to anyone who poses with an ear to ear smile with a creep with a swastika.

[CallMeChip]

I hope we can all agree that you probably shouldnt listen to anyone who poses with an ear to ear smile with a creep with a swastika.

Hah Classic. I knew she was ultra right wing, but I didn't realize ultra retarded dumbshit fukface nazi whore right wing. The saga continues...