[SlickRick1382]

Once upon a time a man, named Warren, made some money. That year he paid 30% tax on the money he made. So out of his 100 income he is only left with 70 bucks. With that 70 bucks he buys stock A. Now lets say in 10 years that stock is worth 105 dollars. Now he has to pay 15% tax on the 35 dollar gain from the stock sale. Now he pays 15% tax on money he has ALREADY PAID 30% TAX ON! So now Warren has made 135 dollars and only has 100 bucks left. Can't you fuks add? He paid a lower percent tax than his secretary this year but that money didn't come from his ass. He has already paid tax on it now he is paying tax TWICE! How fukking hard is that to understand??

You must not be very bright.

He never paid tax on his money twice. He paid tax on his 100 dollars from working and now he's paying tax on the 35 dollars in profit from the stock, aka capital gains. Tell me when he paid taxes on the 35 twice if he just made the 35 from investing?

Not sure why some people bother to even post at times ....

[SlickRick1382]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCentaur
The rest were EIC, additional child tax credit, or some other refundable credit.
The biggest problem I have with this is not the fairness of it. It's that it promotes a mentality of entitlement.

If everyone could understand this right here we wouldn't have a national debt.

You're absolutely right. If we stopped giving out EITC credits and things of that nature we could pay off our national debt in 510 years. We're talking about 30b+ dollars a year into a 15 trillion pissing pool. Lets not also forget that people who receive the EITC spend the money and put in right back in out economy. They aren't out sending it to other countries or keeping it in their mattress for a rainy day. That money actually creates more taxable money elsewhere so the effects are even lower but **** it, what do I know ....

[SlickRick1382]

^^^ Since I can't edit my posts at this particular point in time. I also wanted to point out that I don't necessarily agree with all the entitlement money people receive in this country but that's not the sole cause of out debt and that won't eliminate our debt in any shape, way or form when our gov't spends 50+ times that alone per year.

[wtf]

But how you do compete with the lower wages overseas, like Mexico and China? I wonder if Japan and Germany have shipped a lot of their jobs to foreign countries like the US has.

in a majority of cases wages ONLY COMPRISE 10% of the overall cost of production

[SteveRyan]

There are a lot of stupid liberal democrats in this forum, but the gold medal for stupidity has to go to SteveRyan.SteveRyan does NOT the possess the ability, intelligence or work ethic to ever succeed in life and all the government's help will NEVER change that. However, there are millions of Americans who can succeed WITHOUT sucking on the tit of the federal government and they know full well that their chance of success is greatly diminshed by the democratic party.

SteveRyan, ITS NO SURPRISE you're living paycheck to paycheck and as long as you keep blaming all of your shortcomings on the republicans instead of "the man in the mirror" you will continue to live paycheck to paycheck for the rest of your life.

I have no doubt your performance at your job is "piss poor" and you probably whine and complain that your boss is taking advantage of you and is NOT paying you as much as you think you deserve.Why don't you make your own business and become wealthy yourself? I suppose its the republicans stopping you, right?

WHAT A PUTZ!!!!

First, you don't know me.
Second, you hear (Read) only what you want to hear.
Third, Republicans don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

Apparently, you have been living under a rock and are oblivious to the fact that they despise the average hard working American.

But go ahead....keep drinking the Kool-aid that the Bush administration dished out for decades. You probably think it's time for "More of the same" even though it drove our country into the ground.

[john230]

First, you don't know me.
Second, you hear (Read) only what you want to hear.
Third, Republicans don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

Apparently, you have been living under a rock and are oblivious to the fact that they despise the average hard working American.

But go ahead....keep drinking the Kool-aid that the Bush administration dished out for decades. You probably think it's time for "More of the same" even though it drove our country into the ground.

John Ashcroft once said this about Moderates" The only thing you find in the middle of the road is a dead skunk and a moderate." However, it's the middle of the road that determines Presidential elections in this country. The far right will always vote Republican and the far left Democrat. I don't agree with your pronounement that the right does not appreciate hard working people. I also know that poor people are not to blame for all the problems in this country. There's a lot of rich people screwing over the system. We need common sense, and to find some middle ground. Or else the whole house will go up in flames.

[dodger33]

You must not be very bright.
He never paid tax on his money twice. He paid tax on his 100 dollars from working and now he's paying tax on the 35 dollars in profit from the stock, aka capital gains. Tell me when he paid taxes on the 35 twice if he just made the 35 from investing?
Not sure why some people bother to even post at times ....

I will give you a chance to redeem yourself. My post is not that confusing and even then all capital gains taxes are a form of double taxation. Let me guess you are taking your first business class in college and you think you know the whole tax code.
Signed,
Dodger33 CPA

[d2bets]

I will give you a chance to redeem yourself. My post is not that confusing and even then all capital gains taxes are a form of double taxation. Let me guess you are taking your first business class in college and you think you know the whole tax code.
Signed,
Dodger33 CPA

Nonsense. You seem to be making an assumption that all corporations pay income tax. You can easily make a capital gain from trading corporations that pay zero income tax. You can even find companies that pay dividends, but didn't pay corporate income tax. GE pays dividends. Income tax? Not so much.

This is the same erroneous assumption people make in saying that estate tax is always double taxation.

[wtt0315]

educated go to school earn more money get taxed more for being sucussful. the poor sit on their porch vote for obama because they need more freebies and complain that the rich make to much even though its the rich paying for their food stamps,babies and weed.

[flocko76]

I will give you a chance to redeem yourself. My post is not that confusing and even then all capital gains taxes are a form of double taxation. Let me guess you are taking your first business class in college and you think you know the whole tax code.
Signed,
Dodger33 CPA

the gains made from buying stock at 70 and selling at 105 have nothing to do with how the business that you bought stock in is run, what money they earned as a business or what taxes they paid or didn't pay.

[TheCentaur]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCentaur
The rest were EIC, additional child tax credit, or some other refundable credit.
The biggest problem I have with this is not the fairness of it. It's that it promotes a mentality of entitlement.




You're absolutely right. If we stopped giving out EITC credits and things of that nature we could pay off our national debt in 510 years. We're talking about 30b+ dollars a year into a 15 trillion pissing pool. Lets not also forget that people who receive the EITC spend the money and put in right back in out economy. They aren't out sending it to other countries or keeping it in their mattress for a rainy day. That money actually creates more taxable money elsewhere so the effects are even lower but **** it, what do I know ....

Let's assume 30 billion is the number we work with, which it actually is more like 45 billion per year when you take into account people who claim and receive it but aren't actually qualified for it. Ok now multiply that by approx. 20 because each child from birth gets EIC each year up until the age of 19, 24 if they are a full time student. Then factor in all the other entitlement expenses each EIC child consumes over that 19-24 years, and it's much higher.

You're right, originally the EIC was implemented to stimulate economies in poorer communities. What it has done though is create and perpetuate a -EV lifestyle if you will, of having children to receive payments that don't actually cover the cost of those children so other govt. programs have to spend on them. These children in turn have children and the cycle continues.

Even if this money from EIC does go back in to the economy instead of to drugs, $5000 spent at Wal-Mart or Bi-Lo doesn't have near the stimulatory effect of saving or investing that $5000 because of the money multiplier effect depending on the fed reserve requirement of banks. Most studies show EIC with a multiplier of slightly above 1 to at the very highest close to 2, while investing or saving that money has a multiplier effect around 6-10.

Why should someone who doesn't need $5000 that much get to keep it over EIC receivers? It just boils down to what your ideals are. IMO, this is the USA, that person actually fuking earned that 5k, so they should get to keep it.

[SlickRick1382]

I will give you a chance to redeem yourself. My post is not that confusing and even then all capital gains taxes are a form of double taxation. Let me guess you are taking your first business class in college and you think you know the whole tax code. Signed, Dodger33 CPA

I'll give you a better chance to redeem yourself.

Ricardo CPA
Owns his own accounting practice.

[SlickRick1382]

Let's assume 30 billion is the number we work with, which it actually is more like 45 billion per year when you take into account people who claim and receive it but aren't actually qualified for it. Ok now multiply that by approx. 20 because each child from birth gets EIC each year up until the age of 19, 24 if they are a full time student. Then factor in all the other entitlement expenses each EIC child consumes over that 19-24 years, and it's much higher. You're right, originally the EIC was implemented to stimulate economies in poorer communities. What it has done though is create and perpetuate a -EV lifestyle if you will, of having children to receive payments that don't actually cover the cost of those children so other govt. programs have to spend on them. These children in turn have children and the cycle continues. Even if this money from EIC does go back in to the economy instead of to drugs, $5000 spent at Wal-Mart or Bi-Lo doesn't have near the stimulatory effect of saving or investing that $5000 because of the money multiplier effect depending on the fed reserve requirement of banks. Most studies show EIC with a multiplier of slightly above 1 to at the very highest close to 2, while investing or saving that money has a multiplier effect around 6-10. Why should someone who doesn't need $5000 that much get to keep it over EIC receivers? It just boils down to what your ideals are. IMO, this is the USA, that person actually fuking earned that 5k, so they should get to keep it.

My post was directed at dodger not you Centaur. I only copied your quote because that's what dodger was agreeing with and I wanted all the information present in case anyone read my reply but didn't understand what I was referring too.

Secondly I agree with you and in a subsequent post I state that I don't agree with the sense of entitlement people have in the country and I don't necessarily agree with all tax deductions.

Even still this alone doesn't solve our debt. Lets say we go with your number of 45 billion per year instead of in the 30 billion range which I was at. At 45 billion a year it would still take over 300 years to wipe away our national deficit. You're talking about 45 billion into a 15 trillion + pissing pot. You essential need 22 years of no tax credits to reach 1 trillion in savings. That's the statement I didn't agree with since Dodger was proclaiming that doing away these credits would solve our national debt issue.

[dodger33]

Nonsense. You seem to be making an assumption that all corporations pay income tax. You can easily make a capital gain from trading corporations that pay zero income tax. You can even find companies that pay dividends, but didn't pay corporate income tax. GE pays dividends. Income tax? Not so much.This is the same erroneous assumption people make in saying that estate tax is always double taxation.

Like i said in my last post i am a CPA. You don't think i know about how the tax system works? Just because that corporation isn't double taxed doesn't mean that you as a consumer don't pay double tax on it. You invest your money with after tax dollars and then pay capital gains tax with that after tax money. Last time i checked that is double tax.

[SlickRick1382]

I will give you a chance to redeem yourself. My post is not that confusing and even then all capital gains taxes are a form of double taxation. Let me guess you are taking your first business class in college and you think you know the whole tax code. Signed, Dodger33 CPA

P.S. How come no one ever argues about Sales Tax? Now that's double taxation if I ever saw one ...

[SlickRick1382]

Like i said in my last post i am a CPA. You don't think i know about how the tax system works? Just because that corporation isn't double taxed doesn't mean that you as a consumer don't pay double tax on it. You invest your money with after tax dollars and then pay capital gains tax with that after tax money. Last time i checked that is double tax.

New income is considered double taxation just because it was earned with previously taxed money? Last I checked it's new income.

[TheCentaur]

Didn't realize there were so many CPA's on here.

[TheCentaur]

Even still this alone doesn't solve our debt. Lets say we go with your number of 45 billion per year instead of in the 30 billion range which I was at. At 45 billion a year it would still take over 300 years to wipe away our national deficit. You're talking about 45 billion into a 15 trillion + pissing pot. You essential need 22 years of no tax credits to reach 1 trillion in savings. That's the statement I didn't agree with since Dodger was proclaiming that doing away these credits would solve our national debt issue.

Ok gotcha. That 45 billion per year though is just the concrete government payouts per year for EIC. When you factor in the intangibles and unnaccounted for expenses, such as other entitlements for the EIC child, loss of possible inv. income with high money multiplier effect, perpetuation of entitlement cycle, etc. I think a realistic cost per year could be more like 150-200 billion.

You can't preach people should keep what they earn and give a pass to multi billion dollar inheritances though. Inheritance tax increases makes sense also. Then get a hold of illegal immigrant public expenses and maybe we have no debt in 10-15 years? Now, who would have the guts to do all this? Good luck finding that President and Congress

[SlickRick1382]

Ok gotcha. That 45 billion per year though is just the concrete government payouts per year for EIC. When you factor in the intangibles and unnaccounted for expenses, such as other entitlements for the EIC child, loss of possible inv. income with high money multiplier effect, perpetuation of entitlement cycle, etc. I think a realistic cost per year could be more like 150-200 billion. You can't preach people should keep what they earn and give a pass to multi billion dollar inheritances though. Inheritance tax increases makes sense also. Then get a hold of illegal immigrant public expenses and maybe we have no debt in 10-15 years? Now, who would have the guts to do all this? Good luck finding that President and Congress

I'm sure if we do a full calc of all the entitlements we'd be closer to the 100b range than the 200b range. Again that's still 150 years worth of money to rid us of our current debt. I'm not disagreeing entirely with your assessment. I'm merely pointing out that we need a slew of cuts ranging from the way we spend on defense to tax cuts, etc. Not one thing is going to help the country rid itself of the monstrous debt we now carry. Tax cuts alone won't do it.

With that said, I don't think all the tax cuts are entitlements and should be done away with. I do feel that some actually do what they are intended to do and help people who do put that money back into the economy in some shape, way or form. I have clients who work hard and aren't dependent on this money but when it does come in it is beneficial to them. We each have our own views on that so we may never fully agree on but I'm okay with that.

[MonkeyF0cker]

Just about every major country around the world is suffering from the exact same problem in that their respective governments spend far more than they take in via tax revenue.

Raising taxes on the rich can't possibly do the trick as there aren't enough of them to go around to make a major difference and the rich are far more likely to make adjustments to the increased tax burden levied upon them that will have a negative overall effect on the U.S.

The middle class aren't paying anywhere near enough in taxes and the poor are demanding more and more government services that they simply are NOT entitled to.

The truth of the matter is the republicans would give in on taxes if the democrats were willing to face the reality that medicare is completely unsustainable in its current form.

We're $15 TRILLION in debt ($60-$70 TRILLION when medicare and other factors are thrown into the equation) and raising taxes on the rich won't even solve 10% of our debt problem. At this point, its throwing good money after bad.

There are millions of healthy adults living in this country that have never worked a day in their lives and have no plans to. The only thing they know is welfare.

If we don't pull the plug on entitlement programs, our country will bankrupt itself. If we do, then there will be rioting in every major city in America.

It's hilarious how quickly people who ABSORB propaganda forget history.

Are you telling us that the surplus that Bush inherited turned into record debt because of entitlements? LOL.

The ACTUAL reason that we are in this mess is not only because of two EXTREMELY costly wars (one of which was absolutely unnecessary, the other highly debatable) and policies that were bought and enacted by BOTH parties in office that allowed financial corporations to take excessive risk, artificially inflate the economy, and freeroll the American taxpayer.

These people that you keep siding with are feeding you nothing but propaganda so that you'll sit here and argue about ideological bullshit with the opposing side, while they (both parties) continue to ass rape you and laugh to the bank.

[MonkeyF0cker]

You want a solution? Get rid of money in politics (make it a capital offense) and fire all of the corrupt assholes that currently run this country. Then the conversation can at least be rational.

[john230]

[quote=MonkeyF0cker;13471511]It's hilarious how quickly people who ABSORB propaganda forget history.

Are you telling us that the surplus that Bush inherited turned into record debt because of entitlements? LOL.

The ACTUAL reason that we are in this mess is not only because of two EXTREMELY costly wars (one of which was absolutely unnecessary, the other highly debatable) and policies that were bought and enacted by BOTH parties in office that allowed financial corporations to take excessive risk, artificially inflate the economy, and freeroll the American taxpayer.

These people that you keep siding with are feeding you nothing but propaganda so that you'll sit here and argue about ideological bullshit with the opposing side, while they (both parties) continue to ass rape you and laugh to the bank.[/quot








"Propaganda is a soft weapon; hold it in your hands long enough, and it moves like a snake, and strikes the other way."

"Propaganda does not deceive people, it merely helps people deceive themselves."

[The Madcap]

The rich are always going to benefit at a faster rate from tax cuts than the middle class, as their assets and capital are already in place to benefit. And while that might anger some of you unsuccessful dipshits out there, this reality does not make tax cuts or lower tax rates inherently sinister.

What matters is what you can get for your buck. In the 1950's we had higher tax rates than today, and a stronger economy, which many of you will point to as reason to raise taxes. But in the 1950's the United States controlled 50-60% of the entire world's wealth. Europe was devastated from the war, South America was an undeveloped shithole, Africa was still fighting the fall-out of European colonization, and the far east had not yet woken up from the dark ages to become the "Asian Tigers."

Point is, America was king. Our economy was booming, while most others were recovering from collapse or had never been developed. When you control that much of the world's wealth, exchange rates work heavily in your favor. And we used them. We used them to import massive amounts of raw materials for pennies on the dollar from third world countries. And while that money was nothing to us, it was a lot to the foreign lands we were importing from. And over time those pennies added up, and those countries used that money to build up their infrastructure and solidify their own economies. Going from third world shit holes to first world powers over the course of the last 50 years. Instead of controlling 50% of the world's wealth, now we control more like 25-30%.

So what does that mean?

It means we can't import shit as cheaply anymore. It means we don't export as much. It means, that our dollars don't go as far as they used to. It means that even with higher tax rates in the 1950's compared to what we have now, Americans had more disposable income. Meaning, we could AFFORD high taxes. Now we can't. We need lower tax rates so everyone has more money to spend. Without disposable income, middle class Americans can't invest, not in themselves, not in other companies. And so we as a nation can't increase our wealth because we have fewer and fewer resources to spend/utilize as the wealthy ships their money to more favorable currency/performance climates and the government takes what's left and pisses it down the drain on failures.

And why?

Because of all you spineless commie fukking bitches who can't stop complaining long enough to figure out how shit works.

When the independently successful people in this country (AKA: small business owners) predominately believe we need to cut taxes, maybe you should start fukking listening to them and not a bunch of paper-chasing three-card-monty schiesters like Warren Buffet.

[dodger33]

Are you telling us that the surplus that Bush inherited turned into record debt because of entitlements? LOL. The ACTUAL reason that we are in this mess is not only because of two EXTREMELY costly wars

explain these then...where is the talk about privatization of education and social security. everything the government gets their hands on they run so inefficiently they either bankrupt it or completely ruin it. post office and social security are just two examples.

[Balco10]

98% of liberals have no clue when it comes to taxes...

[MHawk]

Excellent post

[SteveRyan]

When the independently successful people in this country (AKA: small business owners) predominately believe we need to cut taxes, maybe you should start fukking listening to them and not a bunch of paper-chasing three-card-monty schiesters like Warren Buffet.

You and I know damn well that's never going to happen.

Last year, payroll taxes did not cover the amount of money that was shelled out to Social Security beneficiaries. Guess what? That means the SS administration will need to cash in some of those treasury bonds to make up for the loss. Where does that money come from?

You guessed it!! Higher taxes and borrowing it from somewhere else.

[Andy117]

98% of liberals have no clue when it comes to taxes...

You have never demonstrated that you have a clue about anything.

[MonkeyF0cker]

explain these then...where is the talk about privatization of education and social security. everything the government gets their hands on they run so inefficiently they either bankrupt it or completely ruin it. post office and social security are just two examples.

Wasn't Bush supposed to privatize social security? These assholes just keep passing it on to the next guy. They've known for YEARS that SS/Medicare/Medicaid would need to be fixed. Yet, nobody does anything about it. Just empty promise after empty promise. And every empty promise costs us even more money.

Privatizing education is a horrendous idea on so many levels.

The post office makes money. A 2006 law forces them to pre-pay health insurance for future retirees for the next 10 years which costs them $5.5 billion annually. Without that payment, they would have profited $1 billion last year.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know...service/11433/

[The Madcap]

You and I know damn well that's never going to happen.

Last year, payroll taxes did not cover the amount of money that was shelled out to Social Security beneficiaries. Guess what? That means the SS administration will need to cash in some of those treasury bonds to make up for the loss. Where does that money come from?

You guessed it!! Higher taxes and borrowing it from somewhere else.

Yeah, it would be nice if we had the balls to tell the country we need to raise the social security age to 70.

[golfrulz]

trickle on....

[mmaed]

Massive spending cuts must happen first. Raising taxes will only justify raising spending. If you support raising taxes without cutting spending you should have your head examined. (not speaking to you specifically but in general)

Yes exactly. Jesus I was just listening to Bill Gates/Warren Buffet saying that the rich need to pay more in taxes to help balance the budget. We need to just chop down the budget.

Here is a copy of the 2012 Federal Budget for anyone that wants to read it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Un...federal_budget

Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending

$612 billion (-14.0%)

Unemployment/welfare/other mandatory spending: 612 Billion
Interest on National Debt: 242 Billion
Department of Defense: 553 Billion

By not taking out huge loans and paying people to do nothing we would have 852 billion to play with each year and put towards useful purposes.

[mmaed]

Government healthcare costs are close to 1 trillion.. If americans stopped going to mcdonalds, chain smoking, drinking soda and shitting in their bodies every chance they get we could probably cut that down by quite a bit...