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sometimes these things happen. No one can possibly draw up a rule book for every potential scenario that might occur for any given sport. It sucks not ever being able to tell what the result would be if the horse broke his leg, but the people who bet on this horse when he was in the lead at 29-1 were trying to cheat the system and they don't deserve sympathy for doing that.
They have a business and they treat customers the best they can. Customers want everything now and never wait for the proper answers.Originally Posted by Pat McCrotch
Especially in soccer, if there is a postponed match or a suspended match, the rules is 3 days till money back. Lotta punters start ripping into Betfair because they won't respond.
Betfair should pay out. They will see more of this in Court.
The thing is, this wasn't a technical error in relation to the betting. The ONLY technical error was that they allowed a customer to exceed their limit. It wasn't about a technical glitch about not updating the price. It was an actual trader who placed the lay bets (who knows why, maybe to f\*\*k over betfair?). Who knows how it got through, but I can easily see how betfair could lose this in Court. Maybe this disgruntled punter just wanted to bring them down - its an exchange with a monopoly on the european market that has been going downhill.
The wording of the apology below is telling. Traders have been making mistakes on betfair on this type of thing since the beginning of time, but never beyond their exposure limit - just last week someone lost 250K laying a horse at $1000.00, when it closed at $3.00.9. Minimum and maximum bet stakes
Depending on the product or type of market you are betting on and depending on the currency that you are betting in, there are minimum bet sizes that apply. These minimum bet sizes are subject to change and may differ depending on whether you are on our site or using the Telephone Betting Service. You are not permitted to place bets or try to place bets that are below the minimum bet size threshold and doing so may result in your account being permanently closed.
Your betting limit is represented by the lesser of: (i) your 'Available to Bet' balance shown in your account and (ii) your ‘Exposure Limit’ (which is available in the “Account Summary” tab in “My Account”). However in the event that we process an offer for a bet or the acceptance of a bet in an amount outside the applicable thresholds, such bet will nevertheless stand.
Customers betting in-play on this race will have seen that Voler La Vedette was available to back at 29 when the in-running market was suspended, and that a considerable sum was matched on the clear winner at that price.
An investigation has revealed that this was due to an obvious technical fault which allowed a customer to exceed their exposure limit.
In accordance with our terms and conditions, all in running bets on this race, both win and place, will be made void.
We fully appreciate the dissatisfaction this will cause many customers, and apologise for a very poor customer and betting experience.
The explanation BF have put forward is nonsense. Maybe the 'injured' party was a BF bot skimming on zero delay ? I didn't know you could get such 'bad lines' on an exchange - BF are just the middleman aren't they or is that a fundamental misunderstanding of exchanges?
Last edited by potless; 12-28-11 at 05:17 PM.
You have quoted one clause from the Ts and Cs but there are many others. If it goes to court (and I don't think it will) the upside is that we would see what actually occurred but unless Betfair is somehow involved or complicit, there is no chance of these punters (shot takers) being paid.
The disgruntled trader scenario you described is akin to someone hacking into Pinnacle's or Ladbrokes software and increasing the odds. Would you expect the book to stand the loss in that case?
I lost about 6k back in October when I mistakenly laid Kansas State SU at odds of 4.9 against Kansas. I, of course meant to Lay Kansas at those odds. This is my mistake and a lucky guy managed to mop it up. The difference is that I, as the counterparty to the trade, had the funds to pay the lucky guy. In this case..................
Last edited by FourLengthsClear; 12-28-11 at 05:27 PM.
Good point. I haven't read all the T and C's. Someone had that up on one of the BF forums.
We will probably never know what actually happened and I agree these punters aren't seeing their money either.
That is a possibility and if the case went to court, that would come out in the wash.
You get bad lines all the time on an exchange due to human error on the part of traders and bettors and/or malfunctioning bots. These bets always stand except in the case of technical problems or fraudulent activity.
I have had around 12 bets voided due to these issues in my time, some were winners some were losers and I have never been informed, in any detail, as to what the issue was with the other party.
$21 million available on a horse @ 29-1 odds with the odds remaining after the horse crossed the finish line far in front.
This is clearly a case of someone who hacked into Betfair's software.
Only an absolute idiot would expect these kind of bets to stand.
Completely off topic but when you hear things like "exchanges offering in running horse racing" it is hard not to think about how far in the stone age gambling is in the United States...
seriously. in running on a horse race. That is crazy. The race is like 2 minutes.
Heard soon we may be able to finally lay odds on a horse losing a race. I don't bet horses, but that is a big step it seems.
2 minutes? Must have some slow 1000m horses in the US
Betfair's been offering laying of horses to lose for over a decade now. Very popular.
As is the more recent introduction of in running betting and laying.
You need to be sure you are receiving vision at least as quickly as anyone else playing those markets though!
I have experience with Betfair API and very often (especially in last months) they have major software fuckups they call "technical difficulties" or "outages".
During that time one cannot place bets or even worse CANCEL existing bets (UNKNOWN_ERROR) in affected selections, which is very crucial in live betting. You cannot cancel bets even through their web site.
And while problem persists some users can take these stale bets at unfair odds. This is probably the case here.
The sad thing is that Betfair have unfair "terms & conditions", that their customer service loves to copy and paste to their cusomers:
That simply means that if betfair has software problems, you simply lose your money. Essentially you not only risk on the event itself, but on Betfair techical problems. It is a shame Betfair cannot cope with these problems years long even though their revenue is $800 millions per year!11.3.2: "We are not liable for the failure of any equipment or software howsoever caused, wherever located or administered, or whether under our direct control or not, that may prevent the operation of our betting services, impede the placing of orders for bets or the matching of bets, or prevent you from being able to contact us. In particular you should be aware that if you place a bet with the intention of subsequently placing a separate bet to reduce the liability incurred by the initial bet, there can never be a guarantee that the Exchange will be available at the point you wish to place the subsequent bet."
So which bookie (or for that matter, other online business) doesn't have similar conditions of use?
And your conclusion really doesn't stand up anyway.
Nobody lost their money at Befair on in play bets on the event in question.
How are you accessing the API? Is it through a commercially available application or through your own software?
I have had several (short) outages at times when the main Betfair site was fully operational but just assumed it was a problem at my end.
I have my own software, and I use their free API. I am running it all day long and I see many problems. (BET_IN_PROGRESS also their malfunction)
This particular race was a National Hunt (jumps) race over 2 miles.
Laying horses to lose was one of the biggest attractions of Betfair when it started 12(?) years ago.
Hareeba, I know on which side you are by your posts here on SBR. I won't even comment anything you write
That's a very helpful attitude to adopt in the interests of fair discussion on a topic of interest to many.
I can see which side you are on but remain quite prepared to engage in a sensible discussion with you.
I'm not on anyone in particular's side. Only interested in correcting falsehoods and getting to the truth of issues.
Sorry for asking such tough questions.
Lol @ punters.... Regardless... This is an epic fail
It's impossible for someone to exceed their exposure limit and even if by a miracle someone did then there is a serious problem with Betfair's software. IMO this was a **** up by a betfair hedge account or a big bookie account like Ladbrokes with a line of credit and they are trying to cover their asses. If a punter made a mistake they wouldn't get their money back.
Further explination from Betfair is needed here
This.
Disgraceful lack of imagination and initiative for almost all Vegas sportsbooks.
No way Ladbrokes or any other bookie would have 600M+ GBP in their account or on credit facility
Just has to be a system malfunction of some sort to have allowed that sort of money to be offered up
can someone tell me why betfair voided all the bets that had been place in running AT THE CORRECT PRICE?
id love to know there reasons for that.
betfair are a good firm there is no doubt they have more fukk upps than any other company.
pinnacles fukk ups dont cost u money!!!!
betfair are liers!!! I have a motorised satellite dish and i can watch sport from all over europe. one time betfair suspended a soccer match after 20 mins saying the main digi plus feed had went down. I phoned them and said well why the fukk am i sitting watching the main digi plus feed on 2 different channels in my house????
they are protecting someone here and none of u can change my mind.
when one contestant in a market is being bet at such a false price it has an effect on the whole market
I'm not sure that Befair do have more "fukk upps" than any other company but it wouldn't be out of order that they do as they have more customers and offer more markets and take more bets than any other. Their customer base, turnover and number of bets would be more than the total of all those CR books put together.
I get quite a chuckle when I hear excuses like it could have been Ladbrokes laying off action to explain the $600 million dollar offer on a steeple chase race left up after the race was completed.
First of all, no bookie no matter how big would subject themselves to a $600 MILLION LOSS on a horse race as they would have to "fear the fix". In addition, what sane minded person would put up a $600 million order after the race already started (remember BetFair wipes out all orders once a race begins) and then fall asleep at the wheel and leave the $600 MILLION exposure for all to snap up after the horse wins the race by 4 lengths.
If people in this thread can't understand a VOIDING in this ridiculously obvious scenario, THEN GOD HELP THEM as no one else possibly can.
Im not saying they are a bad book, they are good but they are liers, and they didnt handle this correctly!!!!!
betfair DONT want winning punters just like ladcrooks and baldfred!!!!!
that's just an absurd statement and further demonstrates that you don't understand exchanges
winning punters don't cost them money .. they earn them commission
Pat, did you bet exactly this race? Did betfair void all bets? Did they issue any announcement on this case?
Those are books... Betfair's an exchange. They cost themselves a lot of money by voiding this race. They couldn't care less who wins or loses: They get paid either way from the commission. You need to understand the difference between them and a regular sportsbook or else you're going to continue feeling based on something that is not the case.
yes they voided all in-running. I quoted their statement earlier in the thread before Hareeba was able to get in with some of his baseless FACTS. Curious how anyone laying another horse in-running on this race won't be out of pocket - maybe someone could explain ?
They voided all in running wagers on this particular race. What other possible way could they handle it?Im not saying they are a bad book, they are good but they are liers, and they didnt handle this correctly!!!!!
I assume you believe that they should allow bettors to snap off $600 million on a horse that already won the race?
I agree that voiding bets is the most correct decision Betfair management could take here.
Bottom line is Betfair has a lot of technical problems which persist continually. I mean they have technical problems EVERY SINGLE DAY. If their customers would be able to see the real picture I think their share price would drop considerably.
They are trying to hide most cases and for each of them there are losing customers, not Betfair. If such problem happened in smaller race, they would not void the bets. They would stick their "Terms and Conditions" in face of victim of their "outage" and he has just to swallow it.
This is exactly right. If this problem involved a much smaller amount of money, they would have eaten the loss.They are trying to hide most cases and for each of them there are losing customers, not Betfair. If such problem happened in smaller race, they would not void the bets. They would stick their "Terms and Conditions" in face of victim of their "outage" and he has just to swallow it.
Its quite possible some rogue employee put the order in and overrode system requirements. In any event, there is just nothing else BetFair can do in a situation like this.
Perhaps they could offer a free commission period to those traders negatively affected but I doubt it would help much.
It was correct decision to void all in-running bets but I still don`t understand how this could have happened. Someone from betfair traders should have seen this and suspend in-running trading but it was available all the race. And I dont think that this explanation of betfair would stand in court especially if it was betfair bot.
feel free to complain to the LGA, betfair european regulator...what a joke; I guess they like 'thieves open' legislators.
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