[crjohnson32]

I was watching a speech given by a certain republican presidential candidate this morning, and he said something that made me think about how so many American posters are restricted from using many of the top online sports books. Really makes me question how free we really are. On the topic of Individual liberties he had this to say:


So often people are annoyed when I talk about personal liberty, saying, "well someone might use their personal liberty to practice a habit I can't endorse." Legalizing people to make freedom of choices, as long as it doesn't hurt other people is not an endorsement. If you study something, because of the first amendment, doesn't mean we endorse those things. If we can allow individuals to pick and choose their intellectual studies (education), and spiritual studies (religious affiliation), why is we have gotten to a point that we are obsessed with regulating peoples personal habits? We have now accepted the notion that governments can protect us from ourselves. It's a careless attitude toward civil liberties.

[crjohnson32]

"What should the role of government be? Is it to take care of us from cradle to grave, and police the world, and tell us what to do with our personal lives? Or is it to protect or liberties, back our economy with sound money, enforce contracts, and protect property rights? There's a big difference. It's the part that made our country great and prosperous that we are giving up."

[jarvol]

Most Americans have become dumb to see it and realize it or too lazy to do anything about it. Ron Paul won't be elected in 2012 and America will continue its descent.

[crjohnson32]

Most Americans have become dumb to see it and realize it or too lazy to do anything about it. Ron Paul won't be elected in 2012 and America will continue its descent.

I think electing Ron Paul may be one of the last chances the American have to save America by means of democracy.

It's like how the fall of all great empires through out history can be traced back to the fall of that empires economy. Likewise, the start of all revolutions can be traced to the point that the gap between rich and poor becomes too much.

The middle class is disappearing. Our elected officials no longer represent the voice of the people, rather they represent whoever gives them the most money.

We have a banking system that doesn't accept losses. How is privatized earnings during good times, and socialized losses during bad times capitalism?

[Emily_Haines]

Just keep voting for those shitty GOP candidates (except Ron Paul) if you hate freedom.

[big0mar]

I think electing Ron Paul may be one of the last chances the American have to save America by means of democracy.

It's like how the fall of all great empires through out history can be traced back to the fall of that empires economy. Likewise, the start of all revolutions can be traced to the point that the gap between rich and poor becomes too much.

The middle class is disappearing. Our elected officials no longer represent the voice of the people, rather they represent whoever gives them the most money.

We have a banking system that doesn't accept losses. How is privatized earnings during good times, and socialized losses during bad times capitalism?

Not sure you can say Ron Paul is our only hope for remaining an empire, when he is against our imperialist policies????

[crjohnson32]

Not sure you can say Ron Paul is our only hope for remaining an empire, when he is against our imperialist policies????

Would it be fair to say our only hope for remaining an empire is to elect someone who will do something about our debt.

America has amassed more debt than any other country in the history of the world.

Ron Paul wants to cut military spending. This does not affect national defense.

Ron Paul is a strict constitutionalists. Anything he's ever said or voted for reflects his view of the constitution. Are you suggesting our imperialist policies go against the constitution?

If so than I would have to agree with you.

I didn't mean empire in that sense that you are suggesting.

[big0mar]

Would it be fair to say our only hope for remaining an empire is to elect someone who will do something about our debt.

America has amassed more debt than any other country in the history of the world.

Ron Paul wants to cut military spending. This does not affect national defense.

Ron Paul is a strict constitutionalists. Anything he's ever said or voted for reflects his view of the constitution. Are you suggesting our imperialist policies go against the constitution?

If so than I would have to agree with you.

I didn't mean empire in that sense that you are suggesting.

No, I don not believe our debt is an issue.

We need to take resources from abroad to remain a super power. Cutting military budget will not help that. We didn't become a super power because we are nice.

Lets not be naive here.

If we aren't going to do it, then plenty of other countries will.

[crjohnson32]

No, I don not believe our debt is an issue.

We need to take resources from abroad to remain a super power. Cutting military budget will not help that. We didn't become a super power because we are nice.

Lets not be naive here.

If we aren't going to do it, then plenty of other countries will.

Where are we getting the money to fund the "taking of resources from abroad"

Lets not be naive here?? We have no money!!!

I'll tell you where we're getting that money, we're borrowing it FROM ABROAD!!!

You might as well just rip up the constitution!!!

[The Inevitable]

Anyone ever think, what if Ron Paul gets in there and doesn't do any of the things he said he would do (much like every other President)? What if he gets in there and says, "Well I'm trying to legalize gambling, but I'm not getting enough votes in congress,"? All presidential candidates talk a lot of game, but it's always some bullsht once they get the seat.

[big0mar]

Where are we getting the money to fund the "taking of resources from abroad"

Lets not be naive here?? We have no money!!!

I'll tell you where we're getting that money, we're borrowing it FROM ABROAD!!!

You might as well just rip up the constitution!!!

We have no money???

By what measure????

People lining up to loan USA money right now

[jarvol]

Anyone ever think, what if Ron Paul gets in there and doesn't do any of the things he said he would do (much like every other President)? What if he gets in there and says, "Well I'm trying to legalize gambling, but I'm not getting enough votes in congress,"? All presidential candidates talk a lot of game, but it's always some bullsht once they get the seat.

The people intelligent enough to vote for Ron Paul sure as hell aren't voting for the 99% of corrupt congressmen who are currently in office holding American's freedoms hostage.

[crjohnson32]

We have no money???

By what measure????

People lining up to loan USA money right now

Exactly, we have no idea what the value of our money is because it's not backed up by anything sound.

The federal reserve determines the value of American money and we have no idea what they base the value of it on because we can't audit the fed.

Who do you think determines inflation? The federal reserve.

By what Measure????

We used to be able to measure the value of our money. In 1913 you could walk into any bank in America and redeem $1 for 1 ounce of gold. The value of our money was backed my a commodity, silver and gold.
How much would that same ounce of gold cost you today? Almost $2000. Why is it so much now? Because we established the federal reserve, who determines the value of our money. That is why inflation rates are so crazy, gas is so expensive, food, all those prices go up. Do our wages go up?

Do you understand what a global economic downfall really means?? It means one country can't pay the debt owed to the other country, who can't pay it's debt to another country, etc etc, until the country who loaned made the first loan doesn't get paid. Hence the word GLOBAL before economic downfall.

Countries are not lining up to loan us money my friend! I don't know which media outlet told you that, but they are wrong.

There are countries willing to lend us money, yes. But they are willing to do so because they know we need that money to pay the interest on loans we've taken from other countries, who in turn, owe the country (china) that's loaning us money in the first place.

I mean as a tax payer do you really think it's far that your money goes to bail out the banks who essentially gambled on your home mortgages and lost? Did you see a cut of the profit when they were winning? That is not Capitalism.

big0mar ask yourself this:
Can you or I get out of debt by going into more debt?
I cannot, can you?
How is it the federal government can?

[big0mar]

Countries are not lining up to loan us money my friend! I don't know which media outlet told you that, but they are wrong.

Nobody told me. I used my brain. You should try. Here are the current bond rates:

http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rat...ment-bonds/us/

Do you know what a -0.02 yield entails???

Please, explain to me how rates could be so low, if people were not lining up to loan us money. I look forward to your response.

There are countries willing to lend us money, yes. But they are willing to do so because they know we need that money to pay the interest on loans we've taken from other countries, who in turn, owe the country (china) that's loaning us money in the first place.

China loans us money (at extremely low interest rates), because they have no option. It is necessary for them to balance their trade surplus. This is a basic concept.

I mean as a tax payer do you really think it's far that your money goes to bail out the banks who essentially gambled on your home mortgages and lost? Did you see a cut of the profit when they were winning? That is not Capitalism.

Yes, we've all seen a cut. How many plasma TVs do you own? How was it possible for you to own a computer? Who are you employed by???????

big0mar ask yourself this:
Can you or I get out of debt by going into more debt?
I cannot, can you?
How is it the federal government can?

Absolutely.

Borrow money at interest rates that are lower than your rate of return. This is really a simple concept. In the case of the Government, simply borrowing money at rates lower than the rate the economy is growing would be sufficient.

If I offered you a $1 million loan, at 0.01% interest, would you accept the loan? I look forward to your response.

[crjohnson32]

I mean as a tax payer do you really think it's far that your money goes to bail out the banks who essentially gambled on your home mortgages and lost?

That is not Capitalism, that is Socialism. If you think that's fair that is fine, but don't hide behind the word Capitalism.

China loans us money (at extremely low interest rates), because they have no option. It is necessary for them to balance their trade surplus. This is a basic concept.

I'm not trying to justify China's decision to loan us money. I'm trying to figure out why our government feels they are justified in going into more debt. What China does that we don't do is invest in their military, whereas we waste money and energy on our military empire. China is buying rights to oil and natural resources, whereas we are consuming our wealth by securing "our" oil in the middle east, at the cost of American lives and the value of our dollar, which increases inflation and puts pressure on the fed to go into more debt.

The trade imbalance is due to the $1 trillion dollars China already owns of our debt. The only basic concept in this is the idea that we can pay off our debt by going into more debt. That is a very basic and foolish concept.

Please, explain to me how rates could be so low, if people were not lining up to loan us money. I look forward to your response.

Interest rates are basically a function of a gov'ts monitary policy, with the federal reserve deciding what rates should be. The gov't, through the fed, tries to influence the economy in the direction it want to go (up) by manipulating interest rates. So if you want money moving around the economy, it keeps interest rates low, which encourages business investments and economic growth.

So if you apply these principals on a larger scale, it's very simple to see why interest rates are so low given the current state of the global economy.

PS, please don't keep repeating "I look forward to your response" as a means to suggest that I won't have one. The more American's keep talking like you and I are here, the better informed our country will be. This is a good thing.

[crjohnson32]

I mean as a tax payer do you really think it's far that your money goes to bail out the banks who essentially gambled on your home mortgages and lost? Did you see a cut of the profit when they were winning? That is not Capitalism.

Yes, we've all seen a cut. How many plasma TVs do you own? How was it possible for you to own a computer? Who are you employed by???????

Call me foolish, but I still subscribe to the idea that if I take out a loan from a lender (bank), I ought to pay that loan back. Hell, I would think the bank would expect me too. Sadly that is not the case, the banks don't care if I pay it back.

As it is now, lenders sell that loan to an investment bank. Investment banks combine 1000's of mortgages, car loans, student loans, and CC debt into 1 unit, knows as collateralized debt obligation, or CDO's. These CDO's are availble to be purchased by investors. So now, when a home owner pays his mortage, it goes to investor all over the world, the original lender doesn't care. That's why any Joe making minimum wage can buy a hlf million dollar home. The investment banks then include a 3rd party known as rating agencies to provide a grade on theseCDO's, AAA being the highest grade a CDO can receive.

Therein lies the flaw of our current economy and is why the middle class is getting the short end of the stick.

Many low level investors (middle class Americans) are investing their money in AAA rated CDO's. Rating agency's have no liability if a AAA rated CDO fails. Investment banks receive more money for the more AAA CDO's they sell, who in turn, create incentives for the unregulated rating agency's to pump out more AAA ratings on CDO's. So what happens when a bunch of these AAA rated CDO's fail? Everyone loses, the banks, and middle class American's. And who received the bailouts???

I may have some Idealistic views about the world, but you don't need to be idealistic to see how that is not fair.

[big0mar]

That is not Capitalism, that is Socialism. If you think that's fair that is fine, but don't hide behind the word Capitalism.

I don't believe I ever used the word capitalism.

And to be clear, this isn't about whats "fair".

I'm not trying to justify China's decision to loan us money. I'm trying to figure out why our government feels they are justified in going into more debt. What China does that we don't do is invest in their military, whereas we waste money and energy on our military empire. China is buying rights to oil and natural resources, whereas we are consuming our wealth by securing "our" oil in the middle east, at the cost of American lives and the value of our dollar, which increases inflation and puts pressure on the fed to go into more debt.

The trade imbalance is due to the $1 trillion dollars China already owns of our debt. The only basic concept in this is the idea that we can pay off our debt by going into more debt. That is a very basic and foolish concept.

The govnernment is justified in going into debt because people are willing to loan us money at very low rates. Again, look at the current bond rates.

How in the world could the trade imbalance be due to the debt? They have a trade surplus, not a deficit.

China needs to import as much as they export. They import our treasuries to counteract their exports of cheap labor and goods. Your suggestion that they export cheap labor in response to owning our debt does not make sense.

And as much as you want to ignore this fact, if the current rates on borrowed money are lower than the rate of return, the borrower is making money.

Interest rates are basically a function of a gov'ts monitary policy, with the federal reserve deciding what rates should be. The gov't, through the fed, tries to influence the economy in the direction it want to go (up) by manipulating interest rates. So if you want money moving around the economy, it keeps interest rates low, which encourages business investments and economic growth.

So if you apply these principals on a larger scale, it's very simple to see why interest rates are so low given the current state of the global economy.

PS, please don't keep repeating "I look forward to your response" as a means to suggest that I won't have one. The more American's keep talking like you and I are here, the better informed our country will be. This is a good thing.

Huh????

The market determines bond rates. The current bond rates are based on what people on the open market are willing to pay for US treasury bonds. As it stand, people are willing to loan us money at low rates. If they believed our debt to be excessive, they would not deem US treasuries to be a good investment at low rates. Thus, the rates would go higher. I'm not sure how this cannot be understood.

[big0mar]

Call me foolish, but I still subscribe to the idea that if I take out a loan from a lender (bank), I ought to pay that loan back. Hell, I would think the bank would expect me too. Sadly that is not the case, the banks don't care if I pay it back.

As it is now, lenders sell that loan to an investment bank. Investment banks combine 1000's of mortgages, car loans, student loans, and CC debt into 1 unit, knows as collateralized debt obligation, or CDO's. These CDO's are availble to be purchased by investors. So now, when a home owner pays his mortage, it goes to investor all over the world, the original lender doesn't care. That's why any Joe making minimum wage can buy a hlf million dollar home. The investment banks then include a 3rd party known as rating agencies to provide a grade on theseCDO's, AAA being the highest grade a CDO can receive.

Therein lies the flaw of our current economy and is why the middle class is getting the short end of the stick.

Many low level investors (middle class Americans) are investing their money in AAA rated CDO's. Rating agency's have no liability if a AAA rated CDO fails. Investment banks receive more money for the more AAA CDO's they sell, who in turn, create incentives for the unregulated rating agency's to pump out more AAA ratings on CDO's. So what happens when a bunch of these AAA rated CDO's fail? Everyone loses, the banks, and middle class American's. And who received the bailouts???

I may have some Idealistic views about the world, but you don't need to be idealistic to see how that is not fair.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with fiscal policy or government debt. I do not necessarily disagree with your concerns over regulation mentioned here.

But I will say that the bailouts didn't go to the bankers. The bankers already had their money. The bailouts went to saving your money.

[crjohnson32]

really? you don't understand how high interest rates would discourage global economic growth?

[big0mar]

really? you don't understand how high interest rates would discourage global economic growth?

I'm not sure what you're referring to with this statement.

[EmpireMaker]

Ron Paul

[crjohnson32]

I can't edit my posts because of a PM violation so I will have to repost.

The current bond rates are based on what people on the open market are willing to pay for US treasury bonds. As it stand, people are willing to loan us money at low rates. If they believed our debt to be excessive, they would not deem US treasuries to be a good investment at low rates. Thus, the rates would go higher. I'm not sure how this cannot be understood.

really? you don't understand how high interest rates would discourage global economic growth?

[big0mar]

I can't edit my posts because of a PM violation so I will have to repost.



really? you don't understand how high interest rates would discourage global economic growth?

Again, I'm not sure what you're arguing. I agree that high interest rates discourage growth. But we're talking about bond rates here.

The bond rates are based on what individual investors are willing to pay. The most simple answer to your entire argument is the answer to this question:

Why are investors willing to buy US treasuries at extremely low rates????

[crjohnson32]

Again, I'm not sure what you're arguing. I agree that high interest rates discourage growth. But we're talking about bond rates here.

The bond rates are based on what individual investors are willing to pay. The most simple answer to your entire argument is the answer to this question:

Why are investors willing to buy US treasuries at extremely low rates????

because they are not mutually exclusive. Both can be true at the same time.

give me your answer

[big0mar]

because they are not mutually exclusive. Both can be true at the same time.

give me your answer

Because investors have confidence in being repaid.

The market is the most efficient way of knowing if our debt is too high. In this case, the market is so confident in our fiscal situation, that they are willing to accept extremely low interest in return for the safety of American treasuries.

If the USA were in too much debt, nobody would want anything to do with our treasuries.

[crjohnson32]

I have to drive home now....

please don't think of my non immediate response as yielding, haha

[crjohnson32]

Because investors have confidence in being repaid.

The market is the most efficient way of knowing if our debt is too high. In this case, the market is so confident in our fiscal situation, that they are willing to accept extremely low interest in return for the safety of American treasuries.

If the USA were in too much debt, nobody would want anything to do with our treasuries.

In August American credit went from AAA to AA, and it's about to have another devaluation according to economists.

It's interesting how despite this, interest remains low. If you or I have bad credit our interest rate goes up.

[TexansFan]

U.S. banks and corporations have so much money they're sitting on it's ridiculous.

[Emily_Haines]

In August American credit went from AAA to AA, and it's about to have another devaluation according to economists.

It's interesting how despite this, interest remains low. If you or I have bad credit our interest rate goes up.

They say that if the super committee doesn't make 4 trillion in cuts that a down grade is coming. Three weeks prior to the deadline they are not any where close to making a deal and the whole thing many just get shelved.

[big0mar]

In August American credit went from AAA to AA, and it's about to have another devaluation according to economists.

It's interesting how despite this, interest remains low. If you or I have bad credit our interest rate goes up.

It is a subjective rating by an agency. The same agency you decried earlier in this thread.

The market is much more efficient.

You just made my point. Bad credit means higher rates. Lower rates mean good credit. The low rates indicate that our debt is not an issue currently.

[big0mar]

And just for argument's sake, here is the definition of a AA rating:

‘AA’—Very strong capacity to meet financial commitments.

I'm not sure how that entails the USA having this debt calamity everyone refers to.

[crjohnson32]

It is a subjective rating by an agency. The same agency you decried earlier in this thread.

The market is much more efficient.

You just made my point. Bad credit means higher rates. Lower rates mean good credit. The low rates indicate that our debt is not an issue currently.

Standard & Poor is an American based company with vested interests in the market.

It's a miracle they even dropped the rating to AA, I'd like to get a rating from a "mediator" type company for American credit.