[Mac4Lyfe]

Williams, I know you like your Cavs and all, but you couldn't be more wrong about Russel Westbrook. That guy is for real and is twice the player Mo Williams every dreamed of being.

Westbrook was the main one I disagreed with that you bolded.

He's also wrong about Jennings, Stuckey, Lawson and Curry for sure. Put those guys on the Cav's and they become instant All Stars. Every GM in the league would choose those guys over Mo right now...

[Mac4Lyfe]

That it true. I am from Alabama and watched him throughout his playing career and he was not very good. Talented and scored some points, but was just a volume shooter that made awful decisions on the court. Costly turnovers. Did not guard anybody. I was surprised he was drafted to be honest. Alabama has had many like him that was never drafted.. Just a ghetto hoop star, not a true gamer. Trust me guys.. You don't want any basketball players out of Alabama. He is who he is now because of Lebron. Mo Williams if he went to the Nets right now he would blend in perfectly.

Finally someone who's subjective. Solid post and excellent points

If I had time, I would upload tape on teams exploiting Mo on defense. It's almost comical how they abuse him every night. They either isolate Mo to one side and let their PG drive to the rack or they isolate then pick and roll with their big where Shaq/Z and Mo is instant matchup problems for the Cav's. It leads to an easy mid range jumper, layup or kickout 3 when the defense tries to double. Mo can't score enough points to counter this disadvantage.

[ngates815]

He's also wrong about Jennings, Stuckey, Lawson and Curry for sure. Put those guys on the Cav's and they become instant All Stars. Every GM in the league would choose those guys over Mo right now...

Jennings and possibly Lawson are the only ones I'd agree with over those 4 you mentioned. They are true PG's. I really don't think Curry is that great, he's the same thing as Mo, except with better D, but still wouldn't take him over Mo.

[lunchbawks]

what's the point of this discussion? mowill and delonte will be back as starters, that's how it works.

[lyon804]

If you really think about it who are any of the Cavs outside of Lebron and Shaq. Who came to the Cavs with any acclaim or fanfare??Jamario Moon was a Harlem Globetrotter. Anthony Parker was playing over seas. All of the Cavs players have contributed well this season, but they are just a product of Lebron and the system. That JJ Hickson can be a real star and hustles his ass off. All the Cavs parts are great and working well. This team is just that a team, rarely you can say that about a team that has the best player in the league,but it's a tribute to Lebron. He makes those guys click. I read a sportswriter for Espn wrote if you put Lebron on the Nets this year the Nets win 50 games. You know what... That is probably true. At the end of the day they have the best regular season team in the NBA right now, but are they ready to win the tough games to get there championship??

[dynamite140]

Cavs are a bad team

[Mac4Lyfe]

If you really think about it who are any of the Cavs outside of Lebron and Shaq. Who came to the Cavs with any acclaim or fanfare??Jamario Moon was a Harlem Globetrotter. Anthony Parker was playing over seas. All of the Cavs players have contributed well this season, but they are just a product of Lebron and the system. That JJ Hickson can be a real star and hustles his ass off. All the Cavs parts are great and working well. This team is just that a team, rarely you can say that about a team that has the best player in the league,but it's a tribute to Lebron. He makes those guys click. I read a sportswriter for Espn wrote if you put Lebron on the Nets this year the Nets win 50 games. You know what... That is probably true. At the end of the day they have the best regular season team in the NBA right now, but are they ready to win the tough games to get there championship??

JJ could be that next star. The Cav's are getting a huge amount of interest in trading for him. Ferry needs to sit tight on him as he is a sure up and comer. The only player's I trust in the clutch is Lebron, Shaq and Boobie.

[MadDog420]

Is all that crap about Lebron's and whatever supposed to intimidate me? hahah get a clue bro. Seen him play more times in HS than you can imagine. Ripping hoops off the backboard in Stow. If you even know where that is.

Boobie still can't do what Mo does offensively. Rely on Boobie at the beginning of the second quarter and see how the team does. I'm afraid we might not even score with him trying to distribute the rock. He simply can't run the offense like Mo does. I like how you continually criticize Mo defensively as well. Like Gibson is 1st team all defense. I know Mo sucks at d but tell me why Gibson is better? They are both terrible. And did you say see how good Mo is without Lebron? He put up some pretty good stats in Milwaukee playing with a Redd and a bunch of other scrubs. See how Mo is without Bron, how about looking at what Gibson does without him? How did Gibson do last year? Definitely a clutch shooter. Take off the blue and orange glasses please you are hypnotized by these last few weeks.

[Mac4Lyfe]

I will bump every time the Cav's dominate without No show Mo...

Without question, This team plays better with him on the bench. This is the best their defense has looked in years.. Plus they are putting up Playstation numbers on offense. They have 70 points in the half, are you kidding me? They don't do that with Mo out there.

[ngates815]

ohhh they're playing the knicks.

[williams22]

I will bump every time the Cav's dominate without No show Mo...

Without question, This team plays better with him on the bench. This is the best their defense has looked in years.. Plus they are putting up Playstation numbers on offense. They have 70 points in the half, are you kidding me? They don't do that with Mo out there.

Lol a sample size of the Knicks can't be used for anything. Right now Lebron is playing at a level where it doesn't even matter who is on the court with him.

[Mac4Lyfe]

I'm sure this formatting is going to get messed up but basically the following shows that the Cav's are much better with Mo off the floor. This is the difference each rotation makes on the floor. One thing is for certain. The team performs worse with Mo on the floor and especially when him and Shaq are on the floor at the same time.


Opp pts 100 Poss/ Diff 100 poss

Williams, Mo - Parker, Anthony - James, LeBron - Varejao, Anderson - Ilgauskas, Zydrunas (unit) 100.58/ 27.99

Gibson, Daniel - Parker, Anthony - James, LeBron - Varejao, Anderson - Ilgauskas, Zydrunas (unit) 66.1/ 68.27
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Williams, Mo - West, Delonte - James, LeBron - Varejao, Anderson - Ilgauskas, Zydrunas (unit) 95.15/ 13.43

Gibson, Daniel - West, Delonte - James, LeBron - Varejao, Anderson - Ilgauskas, Zydrunas (unit) 81.82/ 52.8
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Williams, Mo - Parker, Anthony - James, LeBron - Varejao, Anderson - O'Neal, Shaquille (unit) 103.92/ -3.53

Gibson, Daniel - Parker, Anthony - James, LeBron - Varejao, Anderson - O'Neal, Shaquille (unit) 71.05/ 31.65
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Williams, Mo - Parker, Anthony - James, LeBron - Hickson, J.J. - O'Neal, Shaquille (unit) 111.46/ -5.46

Gibson, Daniel - Parker, Anthony - James, LeBron - Hickson, J.J. - O'Neal, Shaquille (unit) 97.78/ 17.78
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Williams, Mo - Parker, Anthony - Moon, Jamario - James, LeBron - Varejao, Anderson (unit) 79.41/ 12.02

Gibson, Daniel - Parker, Anthony - Moon, Jamario - James, LeBron - Varejao, Anderson (unit) 94.12/ 18.79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Williams, Mo - Moon, Jamario - James, LeBron - Varejao, Anderson - Ilgauskas, Zydrunas (unit) 108.89/ 12.54

Gibson, Daniel - Moon, Jamario - James, LeBron - Varejao, Anderson - Ilgauskas, Zydrunas (unit) 114.75/ 9.44
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Williams, Mo - Moon, Jamario - James, LeBron - Varejao, Anderson - Hickson, J.J. (unit) 104.76/ 45.24

Gibson, Daniel - Moon, Jamario - James, LeBron - Varejao, Anderson - Hickson, J.J. (unit) 93.75/ 36.25
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Williams, Mo - West, Delonte - Moon, Jamario - James, LeBron - Varejao, Anderson (unit) 103.23/ 20.11

Gibson, Daniel - West, Delonte - Moon, Jamario - James, LeBron - Varejao, Anderson (unit) 103.45/ 10.84
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Williams, Mo - West, Delonte - Moon, Jamario - Varejao, Anderson - Ilgauskas, Zydrunas (unit) 93.75/ 8.25

Gibson, Daniel - West, Delonte - Moon, Jamario - Varejao, Anderson - Ilgauskas, Zydrunas (unit) 112.2/ -19.99
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Williams, Mo - Parker, Anthony - James, LeBron - Varejao, Anderson - Hickson, J.J. (unit) 110.64/ 16.31

Gibson, Daniel - Parker, Anthony - James, LeBron - Varejao, Anderson - Hickson, J.J. (unit) 115.56/ -17.99

[williams22]

Mac,
The formatting got majorly screwed up, but I have a feeling I've seen those stats before. You gotta remember that Mo's numbers get skewed because he is on the court for EVERY minute that Lebron isn't.

[pats3peat]

Cavs are a bad team

/thread

[williams22]

/thread

Says a guy who most likely is a Celtics fan? The Cavs are the best team in the NBA right now without question. 95% of that can be attributed to Lebron.

[Mac4Lyfe]

Here was an insider's quote on the situation and the above data...

The question is whether Mo Williams is a better COMPLEMENT than Gibson. The data is pretty clear that Gibson has played much better with shaq than Mo Williams.

Whatever analysis you want to do Mo Williams is not a good complement to shaq. Shaq is a better player, and is an expiring contract. He's the guy we're going to try to make work. Mo williams can't sniff shaq. We aren't going to try to appease mo williams, we're going to make shaq work and if Mo can't defend someone he's going to find his way to the pine eventually.

I have been hard on shaq, but it's clear when he's allowed to play within 4 feet of the basket and doesn't have to cover for mo williams he's a monster even at 38. Mo Williams doesn't do shaq any favors.

I don't think it's too much of a surprise Hickson's defense has been much better with out Mo escorting the opposition to the hole.

[Mac4Lyfe]

Mac,
The formatting got majorly screwed up, but I have a feeling I've seen those stats before. You gotta remember that Mo's numbers get skewed because he is on the court for EVERY minute that Lebron isn't.

Those numbers are based on each rotation so you can see what the production is when he's in the game WITH and WITHOUT Lebron. The above is a comparison of Mo and Boobie for each rotation. Boobie clearly plays better with the starting 5 and Mo play's better with the subs. That's what the above says. Look at each line, the first is Mo and the second is Boobie with the same rotation. Sorry I can't format it better.

[williams22]

Those numbers are based on each rotation so you can see what the production is when he's in the game WITH and WITHOUT Lebron. The above is a comparison of Mo and Boobie for each rotation. Boobie clearly plays better with the starting 5 and Mo play's better with the subs. That's what the above says. Look at each line, the first is Mo and the second is Boobie with the same rotation. Sorry I can't format it better.

Yeah I think I can see it somewhat. I don't know, I still love Mo's game. Boobie has been playing solid minutes lately though. Mike Brown is going to have an incredibly difficult job soon trying to juggle the minutes for 12 guys. The Cavs are legitimately 12 or 13 deep right now, and Danny Green is no scrub either. Most importantly, they are playing some exciting basketball right now. It's not to see that Shaq does have something left in the tank.

[Mac4Lyfe]

Ok, I tried to fix the formatting somewhat. This is comparing Mo and Boobie with several rotations. It's showing the opponent's points and the differential for each group. In each starting rotation that Brown has used Boobie has performed much better. They are a much better defensive team and the differential is better as well. Mo is better with Delonte and Moon on the court.

[Mac4Lyfe]

Yeah I think I can see it somewhat. I don't know, I still love Mo's game. Boobie has been playing solid minutes lately though. Mike Brown is going to have an incredibly difficult job soon trying to juggle the minutes for 12 guys. The Cavs are legitimately 12 or 13 deep right now, and Danny Green is no scrub either. Most importantly, they are playing some exciting basketball right now. It's not to see that Shaq does have something left in the tank.

Once again, I'm not knocking Mo. My main point is that he's much more productive playing with the second unit. I think he can really light it up coming in as a 6th man. I'd like to see him and Delonte both come off the bench and give that extra punch. They both play well together. Yet, Mo and Shaq, clearly are not getting it done on the floor together. They should never be on the floor at the same time IMO.

I can't recall a team having as much depth as Cleveland has so it's a great problem for Mike Brown but he needs to step up and make the right calls. He's been non existent in crucial games the past few years especially in the playoffs. How does he let Stan Van Dumbdy out coach him

[NEOHsports4life]

Its very simple guys, Lebron is most dominate player in basketball right now, he still needs guys around him that can help him dominate, RIGHT! Just like Kobe, Jordan, Bird, Magic, etc.... We all know it takes a superstar with a good nucleas around him. Cavs have that this year! They have a deep bench with guys that can play defense and shoot the ball on offense. Simply put they will be in the Championship game against ?

[HoulihansTX]

without mo williams cleveland doesn't go anywhere...lebron can't carry the team by himself.

Ummm What has he been doing for the last 7 years? Cavs are a below .500 team w/o LeBron.

[williams22]

Ummm What has he been doing for the last 7 years? Cavs are a below .500 team w/o LeBron.

Very true, although this year they may be in the .450 range without him, more because the bottom of the league is so bad right now.

[Mac4Lyfe]

Bump...

Mo William's comes back and the Cav's drop 2 games in a row. Both teams put up record number's on offense over a porous Cleveland defense.

Shaq's fat ass can't step up on pick and rolls and teams are killing the Cav's if Shaq is in there with Mo or Boobie.

Mike Brown also is an idiot. No in game changes, let's Lebron shoot brick after brick and won't ever chew his ass out. Mike Brown won't allow the Cav's to win a title. He's too fuking incompetent.

Cleveland's biggest issue is PG play or lack thereof, especially on defense. This team should go big and screw Mo and Delonte. Those guys are tweeners that should come of the fuking bench. Mike Brown is too stupid to notice.

[jetsjets1028]

cavs continue to lose lose lose

[Mac4Lyfe]

Your right trade them

Cleveland made a huge mistake not dealing Mo or Delonte IMO. They should have went after a guard that can play defense more than Jamison or Amare. Cleveland has arguably the worst guards in the league, none that should be starting.

Augustin totally outplayed "No Show" Mowill tonight

[lyon804]

Bump...

Mo William's comes back and the Cav's drop 2 games in a row. Both teams put up record number's on offense over a porous Cleveland defense.

Shaq's fat ass can't step up on pick and rolls and teams are killing the Cav's if Shaq is in there with Mo or Boobie.

Mike Brown also is an idiot. No in game changes, let's Lebron shoot brick after brick and won't ever chew his ass out. Mike Brown won't allow the Cav's to win a title. He's too fuking incompetent.

Cleveland's biggest issue is PG play or lack thereof, especially on defense. This team should go big and screw Mo and Delonte. Those guys are tweeners that should come of the fuking bench. Mike Brown is too stupid to notice.

LOL!! I guess you can add Jamison to the list now. What a terribel debut in the Cavs jersey for him..

You do know Williams will be here in a little while chewing you out and correcting you

[williams22]

I'm done with this stupid argument. If you think the Cavs guards are bad you are delusional. Mo and Delonte combined for 25 tonight and didn't even play great.

[Mac4Lyfe]

They combined for 25 but gave up 50-60 for sure...

Both of them on the floor was -17... Who care's if you can score a few points with Delonte scoring 13 and Mo scoring 12 points. That's not that good especially when your giving up 29 and 16 to Jackson and Felton plus Agustin drops 12 as well.

Williams are you even watching the games? Mo in 2 straight nights was as porous on defense as a broken dam. Teams go right at him and with the high pick and roll he is totally clueless on how to defend. He spends most of the time on defense in the paint and he's barely 6 feet?? He let's his man or the rotating man get 3 after 3 after 3. I've been a Cav fan for decades but that doesn't prevent me from seeing what's right before my eyes. We have inconsistent guard play over the past 5-6 years. Nothing has changed. These guys have 1 good game then 2 bad ones. Mo is on fire one game then in a shell the next. Delonte's on fire one game then is a no show the next. These guy's are the Tracy McGrady's of the team. 1 good game followed by 2 or 3 no shows.

Now some of the blame has to go to Mike Brown as well but the main issue is guard play.

[lakerboy]

It doenst matter cleveland has Lebron , he will win it by himself trust me.

[lunchbawks]

i can't believe the cavs got destroyed so bad. noone would ever have thought to take CHA.


books win that play haha, but seriously im sorry if you lost money.

[williams22]

They combined for 25 but gave up 50-60 for sure...

Both of them on the floor was -17... Who care's if you can score a few points with Delonte scoring 13 and Mo scoring 12 points. That's not that good especially when your giving up 29 and 16 to Jackson and Felton plus Agustin drops 12 as well.

Williams are you even watching the games? Mo in 2 straight nights was as porous on defense as a broken dam. Teams go right at him and with the high pick and roll he is totally clueless on how to defend. He spends most of the time on defense in the paint and he's barely 6 feet?? He let's his man or the rotating man get 3 after 3 after 3. I've been a Cav fan for decades but that doesn't prevent me from seeing what's right before my eyes. We have inconsistent guard play over the past 5-6 years. Nothing has changed. These guys have 1 good game then 2 bad ones. Mo is on fire one game then in a shell the next. Delonte's on fire one game then is a no show the next. These guy's are the Tracy McGrady's of the team. 1 good game followed by 2 or 3 no shows.

Now some of the blame has to go to Mike Brown as well but the main issue is guard play.

Yes, you better believe I watch every single minute. Do you understand how a proper pick and roll is defended???? IT'S NOT MO'S FAULT. The defensive liability falls to the others guys when Mo has to go over a screen on a shooter. He played the screens correctly according to the scouting report on nearly every opportunity. When rotations on the first and second pass get mixed up that's not Mo's fault.

Mo and Delonte (and theoretically Jamison now) are the only guys outside of Lebron who can create for themselves. Without them, this team would be in a lot of trouble every time Lebron went to the bench. Do I have to get footage of Eric Snow and Larry Hughes to show you the difference???

[lakerboy]

Williams how are you doing man? The cavs will win the title this year. Dont worry you will get the last laugh.

[williams22]

Williams how are you doing man? The cavs will win the title this year. Dont worry you will get the last laugh.

I'm fine. This game was to be expected to an extent. The Cavs play a very different offensive system than most teams and a lot of it involves making reads off of Lebron. Once you are comfortable with his tendencies, this is very easy to do, but I didn't expect Jamison to step in and put up 25 instantly. The Cavs have not had a practice since he's joined the team. Also, the combination of Z leaving and Mo returning has caused the lineups to get shuffled a bit.

None of this is cause for too much concern. I expect them to have it more together on Sunday and will improve steadily from then on.

[Mac4Lyfe]

^^^Ever optimistic Cav fan.

Williams - I want nothing more than a title in Cleveland, any sport will do. I think the Cav's have the best shot in quite some time BUT it's very apparent to me that we have huge defensive problems defending the pick and roll. Those problems only show up when Mo is the starting PG. Is Mo to blame??? Who know's because Shaq's lazy ass doesn't want to come out and defend either. Yet the fact remains that we give up waaaaay too many points when he's our starter. Boobie was defending it much better but he laid an egg last night as well defensively.

I don't mind a team not hitting shot's, not playing well together offensively with a new lineup BUT to give up triple digit scores back to back and not play quality defense is pathetic. Mo can play defense when he wants to but most of the time he's not motivated and coach Brown won't get in his ass. Brown has no clue on how to inspire his players. He has to rely on Lebron to do that. He won't dare get in Lebron's ass either. He's a puppet.

Guard play is poor in Cleveland. I do not agree with your assertion that Mo can create his own shot. Delonte can at times but even he get's shut down against better defenders. Teams are not afraid of either of them. Teams around the league know that both can be stopped in big games. You give both of them way too much credit for what they do (play off of Lebron) and don't place blame on the glaring weaknesses for both... Getting abused on defense (Mo) and not rebounding (DWest and Mo)

Finally, I keep going back to Mike Brown. He's a slug on the sidelines. Why would you play Jamison almost 30 minutes when he clearly was sucking up the joint. Hickson should have played more minutes and so should have AV in place of Shaq and Moon should have gotten more minutes as well. You don't play Jamison that many minutes when he's struggling because you don't want to hurt his confidence. Mike Brown did the same shit when Wally came on board. He played Wally too many minutes when he was first traded and it led to him having a huge slump when he first got here.

Jamison just set a record of attempts without a make (0-12) in a first game with a team. Real nice...

Mike Brown said that Larry Brown ran circles around him and flat out kicked his butt. Even Mike Brown has to admit that he was outcoached AGAIN!!!

BTW: I expect the Cav's to get ran out of the building in Orlando on Sunday. Ran the fuk out.