[str]

I understand how the horse is doing plays a huge part in this and of course I don't know this..my feel is if things were going somewhat smoothly that coming back in 4 weeks (next weeks race) might be a little soon with his overall circumstances..6 -8 weeks seems more reasonable

Never would have been back in the day but in todays world 4 weeks is almost like " wheeling him back", in 4 weeks. A totally different game isn't it?

[str]

As a follow up, I have to think that Todd will not make the condition book force him into any decisions he is not totally comfortable with. Sure hope not.

I still don't see Kingsbarns as 100% perfect until his 3rd start or even 4th. So it seems critical in my mind to find the spot that fits the horse and not the horse that fits the spot, if that makes sense.

[JBEX]

Q. know you've mentioned the "15's" before and it's good to know from a capping perpective that the horse might've put in that extra work besides the 4f one(s) showing ..i'll keep an eye out for the next

A. It is fair to assume what I am describing. A half in 50 would be useless for this horse as far as training is concerned. Todd is most likely simulating a race type effort with slow, build up, finish thru the lane stuff. That's fairly typical, especially in these circumstances.

the pat day mile is for 3yo's so that's out of the question

Yes, I knew that but was making sure I was correct about a mile out of a chute there.

Q. coming off as long a layoff as he has,ideally,do you want to bring the horse back within about 2 months so he carries forward some of the conditioning from that race ?

A. I would certainly think so or less if possible. 6-7 weeks probably being ideal in todays game.

I've actually come to think that waiting a little longer and trying that longer race at kee might not be a bad route lol to go

Guess it just depends what is out there to choose from.
Todd knows this horse. He will make sure he is real comfortable where he puts him. He has no calendar pointing now I assume so he can do anything he wants.

apologize about the pat day mile..you were just using it as an example that they might have 1 mile chute races at churchill (which they do)


I think the mistake I'm making is putting too much emphasis on a target race vs the horse is in good shape and ready to start the process of returning to the races


feel free to correct if I'm wrong about this


thanks str

[str]

apologize about the pat day mile..you were just using it as an example that they might have 1 mile chute races at churchill (which they do)


I think the mistake I'm making is putting too much emphasis on a target race vs the horse is in good shape and ready to start the process of returning to the races


feel free to correct if I'm wrong about this


thanks str

No apology ever necessary from you JBEX . I don’t usually watch Churchill so other than that race, I wouldn’t have realized it.

You are so used to following the babies and 3 year olds where target races are the norm, training one like KB is relaxing in comparison isn’t it? His only targets are summer and fall IF he keeps winning. A nice problem to have.
Seems you have a solid handle on all the age groups now. You might not know the physical aspects of training but you do see the mapping out side of things very well.

Real good job with that my friend.

[JBEX]

No apology ever necessary from you JBEX . I don’t usually watch Churchill so other than that race, I wouldn’t have realized it.

You are so used to following the babies and 3 year olds where target races are the norm, training one like KB is relaxing in comparison isn’t it? His only targets are summer and fall IF he keeps winning. A nice problem to have.
Seems you have a solid handle on all the age groups now. You might not know the physical aspects of training but you do see the mapping out side of things very well.

Real good job with that my friend.

appreciate that str..since we're following fun to take some guesses on what might be his next race


he worked a snappy 48.51 breezing (3/38) yesterday at pbd ..has to be a sign things are going well..maybe they will take a shot next saturday in the g3 on the fla derby undercard ..whatever the case look forward to seeing him go




.

[str]

[QUOTE=JBEX;31293061]appreciate that str..since we're following fun to take some guesses on what might be his next race


he worked a snappy 48.51 breezing (3/38) yesterday at pbd ..has to be a sign things are going well..maybe they will take a shot next saturday in the g3 on the fla derby undercard ..whatever the case look forward to seeing him go
[QUOTE]


It is fun to try and guess the next move and it is educational as well. It's the little things that you pick up while doing that that makes you better understand what is going on.
So while we are doing it, the very nice workout Friday after that maintenance work last week, puts KB on his toes and signals to Todd he is ready to roll. That signal will be followed up yesterday with monitoring the feed tub, the way he walked the shed row and his typical mannerisms as compared to his par. If that work took something out of him ( and it probably should not have), he will show it, the trainer will see it and act accordingly. If he came out bouncing yesterday morning, walking the shed like a boxer climbing into the ring, he will likely run off of that work which would probably be next Saturday in the race you spoke about.
The last half in 48 and 2/5ths is a real nice move on that track. That is a real positive. So let's see if he is entered. If he is JBEX, you might be seen at the track in the future with a condition book sticking out of your back pocket. LOL. Every trainer has one in the morning in the same place. Back hip pocket.

[mrginandtonic]

Sir STR, if you have time, would love to get your thoughts and pick on today’s DRF Race of the Day- GP Race 8 The Melody of Colors 5f Turf Sprint. Hopefully the race will stay on turf. Thanks in advance.

[str]

Sir STR, if you have time, would love to get your thoughts and pick on today’s DRF Race of the Day- GP Race 8 The Melody of Colors 5f Turf Sprint. Hopefully the race will stay on turf. Thanks in advance.

Sounds like fun. I'll take a look.

Maybe everyone should take a look if they have time. Post the picks for that race in this thread.. If that doesn't confuse the issue for you Mr. GandT nothing will. Haha.

[str]

Gulfstream Park R8|Sun Mar 24|Post Time: 4:37 PM ET
Off Turf 5 Furlongs|3YOçMldyOClrsB100k|Purse: $100K|Beyer Par: NAMoreWagers: $1 Daily Double, $1 Exacta, $.50 Trifecta, $.10 Superfecta, $.50 Bet 3 (Races 8-9-10

I'm seeing OFF turf 5 Furlongs. I assume that is correct. If so, the race will fall apart most likely and without scratches it would be impossible. Let me know if this is wrong or not.
Once we see the scratches, we can still do it if you want. Just let me know.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Race: 8		Changes	Time Posted
Temp Rail Distance set at 52 ft.			Reported at Entry Time
Course - Turf changed to All Weather Track			10:04 AM ET
#1	Fast Motion	Scratched - Trainer	10:04 AM ET
#4	Crimson Advocate	Scratched - Trainer	10:04 AM ET
#5	Trumpets	Scratched - Trainer	10:04 AM ET
#8	Riparound	Scratched - Trainer

[mrginandtonic]

Gulfstream Park R8|Sun Mar 24|Post Time: 4:37 PM ET
Off Turf 5 Furlongs|3YOçMldyOClrsB100k|Purse: $100K|Beyer Par: NAMoreWagers: $1 Daily Double, $1 Exacta, $.50 Trifecta, $.10 Superfecta, $.50 Bet 3 (Races 8-9-10

I'm seeing OFF turf 5 Furlongs. I assume that is correct. If so, the race will fall apart most likely and without scratches it would be impossible. Let me know if this is wrong or not.
Once we see the scratches, we can still do it if you want. Just let me know.

Yeah, looks like its OFF Turf... too bad; and yes, I would love to see your picks and anybody else too. thanks

[mrginandtonic]

Race: 8		Changes	Time Posted
Temp Rail Distance set at 52 ft.			Reported at Entry Time
Course - Turf changed to All Weather Track			10:04 AM ET
#1	Fast Motion	Scratched - Trainer	10:04 AM ET
#4	Crimson Advocate	Scratched - Trainer	10:04 AM ET
#5	Trumpets	Scratched - Trainer	10:04 AM ET
#8	Riparound	Scratched - Trainer

Hey EZ; those scratches are Race 5; do you know the scratches for Race 8? it's not list yet on XpressBet. thanks

[JBEX]

it's off the turf..1 4 5 8 are out


going #2 tiger belle (8-1)

be lower with all the scratches


like the early 2yo european form including beating g3 males at the same distance at top track in france..excellent trainer off layoff and with new acquisitions..able to beat 14 horses breaking her maiden in her debut in may .. super impressive for a 2yo (especially in may)and you know she can run fresh ..sharp works..juvenile turf sprint a tough spot but even though she finished last wasn't too far back at the stretch call..trying to beat the obvious horses who've run well on the all weather already and obviously this one hasn't..this is a really nice horse and think if she's not scratched says something about how saffie (trainer) feeling she can handle it

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hey EZ; those scratches are Race 5; do you know the scratches for Race 8? it's not list yet on XpressBet. thanks

i fixed it those are now for race 8

[JBEX]

it's off the turf..1 4 5 8 are out


going #2 tiger belle (8-1)

be lower with all the scratches


like the early 2yo european form including beating g3 males at the same distance at top track in france..excellent trainer off layoff and with new acquisitions..able to beat 14 horses breaking her maiden in her debut in may .. super impressive for a 2yo (especially in may)and you know she can run fresh ..sharp works..juvenile turf sprint a tough spot but even though she finished last wasn't too far back at the stretch call..trying to beat the obvious horses who've run well on the all weather already and obviously this one hasn't..this is a really nice horse and think if she's not scratched says something about how saffie (trainer) feeling she can handle it

much easier spot than where she's been..would've loved her on the turf at a price but still worth a shot here

[mrginandtonic]

i fixed it those are now for race 8

thank you, EZ

[str]

I like the pick on the 2 horse. Assuming the surface is not a problem, she could be tough in here with pace in front of her early.
I’ll go with the 3, El Terreno. Clement with a horse not even he can relax back off the pace.
A solid group of speed and closers so should be an honest race and with plenty of early pace to push the 3 early. She will need to be special to win this. Gotta a feeling she might be when I see 22 and 44 and then draws off late wrapped up. Whew.

[mrginandtonic]

I like the pick on the 2 horse. Assuming the surface is not a problem, she could be tough in here with pace in front of her early.
I’ll go with the 3, El Terreno. Clement with a horse not even he can relax back off the pace.
A solid group of speed and closers so should be an honest race and with plenty of early pace to push the 3 early. She will need to be special to win this. Gotta a feeling she might be when I see 22 and 44 and then draws off late wrapped up. Whew.

Thanks for the pick Sir STR and JBex. I wonder why Irad is in the 3 instead of 11- Pretty Liam? Like you said, maybe he thinks she is special??!!

I am leaning towards the 9- Twirling Queen; she was dismissed last time and scored at 31-1 after a long layoff. Since it is off turf, and she won at this distance last time on the same surface and track, 15-1 ML is tempting . She was up close last out 21, 44 and able to gut it out. Any thoughts?

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hey STR: Did you make a decision on RTN Yet?

[str]

Hey STR: Did you make a decision on RTN Yet?

Not yet. Been busy all month with stuff. I have it on my mind though . Just not sure how often I will be able to watch it .
I’d like to have it though I think.

[str]

Thanks for the pick Sir STR and JBex. I wonder why Irad is in the 3 instead of 11- Pretty Liam? Like you said, maybe he thinks she is special??!!

I am leaning towards the 9- Twirling Queen; she was dismissed last time and scored at 31-1 after a long layoff. Since it is off turf, and she won at this distance last time on the same surface and track, 15-1 ML is tempting . She was up close last out 21, 44 and able to gut it out. Any thoughts?

I don’t know about that last race. Seems like what I call an accordion race. Everyone bunched up. Seven horses within 2 3/4 s lengths at the 1/8th pole.they came home in 12 but nobody passed anybody hardly.
She did win it though. She should need to improve off that one to beat these . Not saying she can’t though. Nice price last out. Probably again today.
GL if you play her.

[batt33]

I put the 3, 6, 10, 11 in my horizontals

[str]

Thanks for the pick Sir STR and JBex. I wonder why Irad is in the 3 instead of 11- Pretty Liam? Like you said, maybe he thinks she is special??!!

I am leaning towards the 9- Twirling Queen; she was dismissed last time and scored at 31-1 after a long layoff. Since it is off turf, and she won at this distance last time on the same surface and track, 15-1 ML is tempting . She was up close last out 21, 44 and able to gut it out. Any thoughts?

Mr GandT … NICE CALL!
That’s a great job sir.

[JBEX]

Thanks for the pick Sir STR and JBex. I wonder why Irad is in the 3 instead of 11- Pretty Liam? Like you said, maybe he thinks she is special??!!

I am leaning towards the 9- Twirling Queen; she was dismissed last time and scored at 31-1 after a long layoff. Since it is off turf, and she won at this distance last time on the same surface and track, 15-1 ML is tempting . She was up close last out 21, 44 and able to gut it out. Any thoughts?

good call mrgnt

[mrginandtonic]

Mr GandT … NICE CALL!
That’s a great job sir.

good call mrgnt

thank you sir; didn't have the 10 for the ex and tri though...

[JBEX]

[QUOTE=str;31293316][QUOTE=JBEX;31293061]appreciate that str..since we're following fun to take some guesses on what might be his next race


he worked a snappy 48.51 breezing (3/38) yesterday at pbd ..has to be a sign things are going well..maybe they will take a shot next saturday in the g3 on the fla derby undercard ..whatever the case look forward to seeing him go

It is fun to try and guess the next move and it is educational as well. It's the little things that you pick up while doing that that makes you better understand what is going on.
So while we are doing it, the very nice workout Friday after that maintenance work last week, puts KB on his toes and signals to Todd he is ready to roll. That signal will be followed up yesterday with monitoring the feed tub, the way he walked the shed row and his typical mannerisms as compared to his par. If that work took something out of him ( and it probably should not have), he will show it, the trainer will see it and act accordingly. If he came out bouncing yesterday morning, walking the shed like a boxer climbing into the ring, he will likely run off of that work which would probably be next Saturday in the race you spoke about.
The last half in 48 and 2/5ths is a real nice move on that track. That is a real positive. So let's see if he is entered. If he is JBEX, you might be seen at the track in the future with a condition book sticking out of your back pocket. LOL. Every trainer has one in the morning in the same place. Back hip pocket.

thanks str and hopefully we'll see him next saturday ..add a nice extra spark to fla derby day..really is a sensible spot if he's ok after that work


i honestly don't remember ever looking at condition books to see where an older horse might run (probably because i have a horrible memory lol) ..certainly more interesting than with 3yo's where the spots are more well known ..let you know by weds whether i see him entered or not

[JBEX]

deterministic worked for the first time since his gotham win 19 days prior ....at payson park he went a very slow 1:03 and change breezing on thursday ..I'm thinking if they were shooting for the wood memorial they probably wouldn't have shipped him there to work .. maybe with the sluggish time they are not going in the florida derby and looking at the blue grass the following week .. shipping back to ny and then to churchill if he runs well seems like a lot of travel .. like to hear your opinion on this

[JBEX]

deterministic worked for the first time since his gotham win 19 days prior ....at payson park he went a very slow 1:03 and change breezing on thursday ..I'm thinking if they were shooting for the wood memorial they probably wouldn't have shipped him there to work .. maybe with the sluggish time they are not going in the florida derby and looking at the blue grass the following week .. shipping back to ny and then to churchill if he runs well seems like a lot of travel .. like to hear your opinion on this

guessing he "may" have gone a few extra furlongs based on what you've said in the past ...15's

[JBEX]

deterministic worked for the first time since his gotham win 19 days prior ....at payson park he went a very slow 1:03 and change breezing on thursday ..I'm thinking if they were shooting for the wood memorial they probably wouldn't have shipped him there to work .. maybe with the sluggish time they are not going in the florida derby and looking at the blue grass the following week .. shipping back to ny and then to churchill if he runs well seems like a lot of travel .. like to hear your opinion on this

looks like he may have worked in company with a couple of clements' other horses who ran the same time..gives me the feeling he might have got what he wanted out of him ..also ,as you would know, I believe its a much slower surface in general

[str]

deterministic worked for the first time since his gotham win 19 days prior ....at payson park he went a very slow 1:03 and change breezing on thursday ..I'm thinking if they were shooting for the wood memorial they probably wouldn't have shipped him there to work .. maybe with the sluggish time they are not going in the florida derby and looking at the blue grass the following week .. shipping back to ny and then to churchill if he runs well seems like a lot of travel .. like to hear your opinion on this

guessing he "may" have gone a few extra furlongs based on what you've said in the past ...15's

looks like he may have worked in company with a couple of clements' other horses who ran the same time..gives me the feeling he might have got what he wanted out of him ..also ,as you would know, I believe its a much slower surface in general

That 1:03 workout is MUCH better than it looks on paper. A 3 year old learning the ropes almost assuredly worked in company. When you are trying to do what Clement is doing, every work and sometimes gallops, have a distinct purpose.
If I had to guess, he might have had 2 horses in front of him down the backside and he was several lengths behind them. You can now do whatever you want Deterministic to work on. He might have just gone around them as he got around the turn and into the lane or, he could have split them or gone along the rail and come up the inside. Depending on how many clockers there were ( usually 2 ) they would have had a stop watch in each hand, like one for every horse for accuracy's sake. So the time of 1:03 at Payson, and yes, that is a respectable time there, was more about HOW he did it. Was that a final 1/4 in 24? I would guess probably or close to it. Real impressive if that is correct.

You can bet Deterministic is getting the white glove treatment these days with every step scripted out. Fun to watch if you are there in the mornings to see it unfold.

Without knowing the exacts of how these are put together, it is really hard to say what he is pointing towards. But 2 works between races sounds right so maybe he is shooting for the Blue Grass. If so, look for him to finish up maybe a little quicker with the next work. But just guessing without seeing the actual works which put everything into perspective where it all makes sense. Wish we could see those.

You would love sitting at the clockers stand JBEX. A bunch of you guys in here would. You just sit back like Ricky was in that interview in Dubai and see horse after horse flash by. When I think about that stuff, I miss it . Heart squeeze.

[JBEX]

That 1:03 workout is MUCH better than it looks on paper. A 3 year old learning the ropes almost assuredly worked in company. When you are trying to do what Clement is doing, every work and sometimes gallops, have a distinct purpose.
If I had to guess, he might have had 2 horses in front of him down the backside and he was several lengths behind them. You can now do whatever you want Deterministic to work on. He might have just gone around them as he got around the turn and into the lane or, he could have split them or gone along the rail and come up the inside. Depending on how many clockers there were ( usually 2 ) they would have had a stop watch in each hand, like one for every horse for accuracy's sake. So the time of 1:03 at Payson, and yes, that is a respectable time there, was more about HOW he did it. Was that a final 1/4 in 24? I would guess probably or close to it. Real impressive if that is correct.

You can bet Deterministic is getting the white glove treatment these days with every step scripted out. Fun to watch if you are there in the mornings to see it unfold.

Without knowing the exacts of how these are put together, it is really hard to say what he is pointing towards. But 2 works between races sounds right so maybe he is shooting for the Blue Grass. If so, look for him to finish up maybe a little quicker with the next work. But just guessing without seeing the actual works which put everything into perspective where it all makes sense. Wish we could see those.

You would love sitting at the clockers stand JBEX. A bunch of you guys in here would. You just sit back like Ricky was in that interview in Dubai and see horse after horse flash by. When I think about that stuff, I miss it . Heart squeeze.

great info on how the works might have gone ..not only the time but the importance of how comfortably he did
it and the learning experiences he might be getting running with
other horses ..glad you feel that the 1:03+ might be a respectable time at that facility

i think the bluegrass makes the most sense assuming ,of course, that clement is happy with the works ..wherever he goes looking forward to seeing him run


probably about 99.99% of my race watching is through a monitor of some sort lol and sure I'd enjoy the spectacle of watching from the clockers stand..also cool to get an idea how things happen over there during the process

thanks str

[str]

“probably about 99.99% of my race watching is through a monitor of some sort lol and sure I'd enjoy the spectacle of watching from the clockers stand..also cool to get an idea how things happen over there during the process “


The part I think you guys would like the most was early in the morning, sun just coming up , sitting or standing in the old section of Pimlico in the first row in front of the 1/8th pole watching horses train . The place was empty except for some trainers and the clockers. Maybe 15-20 people throughout the grandstand. Drinking a coffee or having a hot cup of soup in the winter was a must at Bowie which was from the 3/4 pole just inside the chute on the surface as that place was seriously cold early , and Laurel was just past the 1/2 mile pole at the tree by the track. Stood in those places for about 20 years every morning.
In the summer right about 8:20 in the morning you could literally feel the heat turn up. Amazing that I could feel that all the time with the sun out in the summer. Always tried to have the workers out by 7:30 and the late Lasix workers out by 9:00 if the vet came by 6AM. Didn’t always work out but we tried to make it happen.
It got to the point where I watched other claiming trainers horses train as well if they had markings I could remember. Mental notes on future possible claims .

Delaware was at the 1/4 pole gap but they had a training track as well so I would move around a lot there depending on who was doing what.

I’m just rambling now but I do know that many of you in here would love to see and experience that. I would have loved to have had you guys there.

[str]

Totally changing the subject and just to show everyone how much the training game has changed since the 70’s and 80’s here are some trainer quotes in the aftermath of the 1987 Marlboro Cup regarding the timing of the Breeders' Cup:

"...After that, there's only one major event left on the calendar—the Breeders' Cup on Nov. 21 at Hollywood Park. Java Gold may skip that dance, which could turn out to be a very smart move. Trainers on the Belmont backstretch were grumbling about the late date for this year's Breeders' Cup. "From October 10th to the 21st of November, that's a long time for a horse to be idle," said Miller.

Other horsemen agreed. "It's an absolute joke," said McGaughey. "If it was up to me, I wouldn't want to participate." But it isn't up to him, and owner Ogden Phipps has said nothing about holding Polish Navy out of the Breeders' Cup. Gulch will likely be at Hollywood Park, too, even though trainer LeRoy Jolley said, "It's really too late. It was difficult enough to make it for November 1st [last year's Breeders' Cup date], and when you extend it another three weeks, that makes it very difficult."

[JBEX]

Totally changing the subject and just to show everyone how much the training game has changed since the 70’s and 80’s here are some trainer quotes in the aftermath of the 1987 Marlboro Cup regarding the timing of the Breeders' Cup:

"...After that, there's only one major event left on the calendar—the Breeders' Cup on Nov. 21 at Hollywood Park. Java Gold may skip that dance, which could turn out to be a very smart move. Trainers on the Belmont backstretch were grumbling about the late date for this year's Breeders' Cup. "From October 10th to the 21st of November, that's a long time for a horse to be idle," said Miller.

Other horsemen agreed. "It's an absolute joke," said McGaughey. "If it was up to me, I wouldn't want to participate." But it isn't up to him, and owner Ogden Phipps has said nothing about holding Polish Navy out of the Breeders' Cup. Gulch will likely be at Hollywood Park, too, even though trainer LeRoy Jolley said, "It's really too late. It was difficult enough to make it for November 1st [last year's Breeders' Cup date], and when you extend it another three weeks, that makes it very difficult."

wouldn't have guessed it was this dramatic a difference in the late 80's..unbelievable




.

[JBEX]

no kingsbarns on saturday