[pouyasophy]

Honestly, I realize how useful Jiu-jitsu can be in MMA, but these days, how often do you see someone submit someone, especially off their back?

With only a few months of training, I believe any average athlete can learn enough submission defense to at least survive in an MMA match.

Nearly every pro MMA fighter is balanced enough to stay away from submissions.

In my opinion, most BJJ fighters are flawed because they have no takedown ability and have a hard time getting on top of wrestlers, which is when BJJ seems to be most effective. Hardly anyone submits anyone off their back unless the guy makes a stupid mistake or has no knowledge of BJJ.

So in conclusion, BJJ offense, in my opinion, seems to be often useless unless they can get on top and dictate the pace on the ground.

This is why I can't see Maia winning this fight unless he jabs Fitch for 3 rounds and avoids the takedown. This is why Nog has no chance unless he catches Rashad standing.

Perhaps many BJJ experts are too stupid to work on takedown offense and they only work on strengths.
But then at the same time you can also argue that wrestlers should practice submission offense from the top once they have someone on the ground, but there's no need because laying on someone scores points apparently.

Thoughts?

[sideloaded]

[Vaughany]

Paul Sass seems to do ok!

[varkolek]

With only a few months of training, I believe any average athlete can learn enough submission defense to at least survive in an MMA match.

Seems like an inflammatory thing to say. Many months of training hasn't stopped KJ Noons from getting put in bad positions, or Lavar Johnson losing pretty much every match where grappling factors into it. That's 2 examples that come to mind.

I am expecting Maia to win. I'll have to go back and watch some footage on how he did against Weidman and Munoz, and also haven't seen Fitch's most recent fight against Erick Silva. Also will have to rewatch Fitch vs Thiago Silva where Fitch lost a round.

Maia has also trained wrestling with top wrestlers, to improve his take down ability.

The problem is Maia's lack of cardio as opposed to Fitch's excellent cardio, but still I'm expecting Maia to win.

Think Rashad will win, but Rashad never really shot on Phil Davis, he took Davis down every time by catching kicks and then tripping Davis. He stuffed all of Davis' tds except one. But I haven't seen anything to suggest that Rashad's tds are necessarily a whole lot better than Davis'.

I've seen it before, but didn't watch Diet Nog's fight with Bader (where he was taken down every round) in capping this fight. But Nog's subsequent fight was with Davis and he showed excellent defence against a double leg take down then. I think he had been working with Munoz in the meantime. Also, I think both Bader and Davis competed at heavier weight classes in collegiate wrestling than Rashad did.

Nog has good boxing and I doubt there'll be a huge gap in striking between the two. I've just bet on fight going the distance which I'll hedge with Nog by stoppage.

[brooks85]

its ridiculous to think in a few months you could defend. Check out this kid, training hours a day 5/days a week but no mention of wrestling...

[Vaughany]

its ridiculous to think in a few months you could defend. Check out this kid, training hours a day 5/days a week but no mention of wrestling...

kid seems smart as fuuck as well! Speaks like he's 17 not 13!

[brooks85]

yeah be awesome to seem him in the UFC in 5 years. Some serious bs he can't fight mma in NY cause some penetrating culinary union in nevada. penetrating unions.

[pouyasophy]

Well here's how I see it, just to be more thorough...

Dan Henderson, with no jiu-jitsu experience, has been on the ground with the best BJJ fighters (Nogs) with ONLY wrestling experience, and this was early in his career. How many olympic wrestlers have made the transition into MMA and been successful? Plenty!!! Dozens and dozens have become elite!

However, with the exception of the early years of the Gracies, BJJ guys can't seem to stop the takedown without years and years of experience at an early age, and then they end up spending entire fights getting outpointed because they're on their back the whole time.

[pouyasophy]

Seems like an inflammatory thing to say. Many months of training hasn't stopped KJ Noons from getting put in bad positions, or Lavar Johnson losing pretty much every match where grappling factors into it. That's 2 examples that come to mind.

I am expecting Maia to win. I'll have to go back and watch some footage on how he did against Weidman and Munoz, and also haven't seen Fitch's most recent fight against Erick Silva. Also will have to rewatch Fitch vs Thiago Silva where Fitch lost a round.

Maia has also trained wrestling with top wrestlers, to improve his take down ability.

The problem is Maia's lack of cardio as opposed to Fitch's excellent cardio, but still I'm expecting Maia to win.

Think Rashad will win, but Rashad never really shot on Phil Davis, he took Davis down every time by catching kicks and then tripping Davis. He stuffed all of Davis' tds except one. But I haven't seen anything to suggest that Rashad's tds are necessarily a whole lot better than Davis'.

I've seen it before, but didn't watch Diet Nog's fight with Bader (where he was taken down every round) in capping this fight. But Nog's subsequent fight was with Davis and he showed excellent defence against a double leg take down then. I think he had been working with Munoz in the meantime. Also, I think both Bader and Davis competed at heavier weight classes in collegiate wrestling than Rashad did.

Nog has good boxing and I doubt there'll be a huge gap in striking between the two. I've just bet on fight going the distance which I'll hedge with Nog by stoppage.

Lavar Johnson and KJ Noons aren't good wrestlers though. I'm not saying BJJ is useless, but it's almost useless when you're on your back against a decent wrestler.

And I can't remember Thiago Silva fighting Jon Fitch. When did welterweights start fighting light hwghts?

[pouyasophy]

Seems like an inflammatory thing to say. Many months of training hasn't stopped KJ Noons from getting put in bad positions, or Lavar Johnson losing pretty much every match where grappling factors into it. That's 2 examples that come to mind.

I am expecting Maia to win. I'll have to go back and watch some footage on how he did against Weidman and Munoz, and also haven't seen Fitch's most recent fight against Erick Silva. Also will have to rewatch Fitch vs Thiago Silva where Fitch lost a round.

Maia has also trained wrestling with top wrestlers, to improve his take down ability.

The problem is Maia's lack of cardio as opposed to Fitch's excellent cardio, but still I'm expecting Maia to win.

Think Rashad will win, but Rashad never really shot on Phil Davis, he took Davis down every time by catching kicks and then tripping Davis. He stuffed all of Davis' tds except one. But I haven't seen anything to suggest that Rashad's tds are necessarily a whole lot better than Davis'.

I've seen it before, but didn't watch Diet Nog's fight with Bader (where he was taken down every round) in capping this fight. But Nog's subsequent fight was with Davis and he showed excellent defence against a double leg take down then. I think he had been working with Munoz in the meantime. Also, I think both Bader and Davis competed at heavier weight classes in collegiate wrestling than Rashad did.

Nog has good boxing and I doubt there'll be a huge gap in striking between the two. I've just bet on fight going the distance which I'll hedge with Nog by stoppage.

Even if Rashad's wrestling is worse than Davis', thats still better than Nog's. I see Rashad winning a decision, and I see Fitch taking 2 or 3 out of 3 and getting a decision. Maia is good but not a good enough striker to finish Fitch. We'll see what happens...

[dww123]

It's the threat of jiu jitsu that's more relevant these days. A good jiujitsu player will take less punishment overall as it will keep his opponent from opening up too much. It's good for sweeps too. It's also comes in handy when your opponent is tired, easier to submit.

[MD]

Serious fundamental misunderstandings of the grappling game in this thread.

I'd correct you all, but I'm far too busy trying to figure out why people think Rashad isn't a vastly inferior boxer to Nogueira, and can't only win in the stand-up due to his athleticism and the takedown threat.

[GunShard]

Remember now, Silva's jiujitsu defeated Sonnen's wrestling on their first fight.

Jiujitsu and wrestling are equally good. It's how you use it and how well trained you are on either skill.

[Rubber Guard]

Depends how good the BJJ guy is. Not every blackbelt is going to be super awesome on his back.

You put Werdum on his back vs. Cain for 1 full round and I bet he subs him. You put Maia on his back vs. Kos and I bet he subs him. You put Jacre on his back vs. Sonnen and he subs him.

Problem with your theory is guys like Fitch, Rashad, Weidman and so on are also well-versed in BJJ.

You say this is why you can't see Maia beating Fitch. Well no only is Fitch the MUCH more experienced wrestler...but he is also a knowledgeable BJJ practitioner, he has a blackbelt or equivalent to a BB for focks sake.

So you are saying a high level BJJ fighter won't be as effective as a high level wrestler with a great deal of BJJ knowledge and practice himself.

Well no Duuuuh....

[terpkeg]

Anyone fighting top level mma, and I will include everyone in UFC and Bellator, has been training bjj for atleast 2 years. Most much longer.

[nlin]

Serious fundamental misunderstandings of the grappling game in this thread.

this

[stefan084]

Seems like an inflammatory thing to say. Many months of training hasn't stopped KJ Noons from getting put in bad positions, or Lavar Johnson losing pretty much every match where grappling factors into it. That's 2 examples that come to mind.

I am expecting Maia to win. I'll have to go back and watch some footage on how he did against Weidman and Munoz, and also haven't seen Fitch's most recent fight against Erick Silva. Also will have to rewatch Fitch vs Thiago Silva where Fitch lost a round.

Maia has also trained wrestling with top wrestlers, to improve his take down ability.

The problem is Maia's lack of cardio as opposed to Fitch's excellent cardio, but still I'm expecting Maia to win.

Think Rashad will win, but Rashad never really shot on Phil Davis, he took Davis down every time by catching kicks and then tripping Davis. He stuffed all of Davis' tds except one. But I haven't seen anything to suggest that Rashad's tds are necessarily a whole lot better than Davis'.

I've seen it before, but didn't watch Diet Nog's fight with Bader (where he was taken down every round) in capping this fight. But Nog's subsequent fight was with Davis and he showed excellent defence against a double leg take down then. I think he had been working with Munoz in the meantime. Also, I think both Bader and Davis competed at heavier weight classes in collegiate wrestling than Rashad did.

Nog has good boxing and I doubt there'll be a huge gap in striking between the two. I've just bet on fight going the distance which I'll hedge with Nog by stoppage.

BJJ is a crucial part of MMA but I really think you should watch Fitchs last fight like you mentioned.He was relentless and very impressive imo. I'm usually not a fan but evidently he was financially pressed and said no one would beat him that night and I believed him.

[Kermit]

The problem is that BJJ Black Belts are given out far too easily. For crying out loud, it was announced not long ago that Rashad Evens was a BJJ Black Belt.

[Jesus Christ]

If you're strictly speaking of the guard game in mma being overrated I can see an argument being made for it....but BJJ as a whole being overrated?.....laughable.

[Vaughany]

Depends how good the BJJ guy is. Not every blackbelt is going to be super awesome on his back.

You put Werdum on his back vs. Cain for 1 full round and I bet he subs him. You put Maia on his back vs. Kos and I bet he subs him. You put Jacre on his back vs. Sonnen and he subs him.

Problem with your theory is guys like Fitch, Rashad, Weidman and so on are also well-versed in BJJ.

You say this is why you can't see Maia beating Fitch. Well no only is Fitch the MUCH more experienced wrestler...but he is also a knowledgeable BJJ practitioner, he has a blackbelt or equivalent to a BB for focks sake.

So you are saying a high level BJJ fighter won't be as effective as a high level wrestler with a great deal of BJJ knowledge and practice himself.

Well no Duuuuh....

Why would Kos be more likely to get subbed than Fitch?!

[varkolek]

I meant Paulo Thiago.

Dan Henderson would train submission defence. Even if you/he choose not to call that discipline BJJ, they'd have to be aware of bjj in order to be effective.

[varkolek]

I'd correct you all, but I'm far too busy trying to figure out why people think Rashad isn't a vastly inferior boxer to Nogueira, and can't only win in the stand-up due to his athleticism and the takedown threat.

Rashad may be a technically inferior boxer to Nog, but I said I doubt there'd be a huge gap in striking. MMA is basically made of people with technical holes in their striking but they get by. You'd think a gap in skill level would play out as some dominant victory for the more technical striker, but that doesn't happen.

An example of this would be Khabib Nurma..., wild as penetrate but manages to be competitive. Another example is Glover Texeira, which I was on small to lose against Rampage and I think you said you were on moderate. Technical holes with his striking, but people correctly called his striking would be more effective than Rampage's.

Overeem has said he'd liked to fight Vitali, and JDS was claiming with a couple of months training he'd be able to take the Klitchskos. JDS isn't the most technical boxer, but until recently it was enough to allow him to rule the division.

Even if Rashad does get rocked it doesn't mean he loses the match. And I would be surprised if the difference in skill level between Rashad and Nog plays out that Nog lays him out cold in the first few minutes. I expect the fight to be close.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rashad gets a take down in a couple of rounds which means probable victory. Phil Davis got Nog down at the end of round 2 and in round 3, and it was enough for him.

[Sacrelicious]

Pouyasophy: Stop making threads.

[Vaughany]

[v1y]

"Not a lot of submissions from guard, ergo jiujitsu is overrated"

Wow.

[The iron sheik]

The problem is that BJJ Black Belts are given out far too easily. For crying out loud, it was announced not long ago that Rashad Evens was a BJJ Black Belt.

What a silly post.
Between you and that Gracie that awarded him the belt, i have little problem deciphering who knows better.

[pouyasophy]

If you're strictly speaking of the guard game in mma being overrated I can see an argument being made for it....but BJJ as a whole being overrated?.....laughable.

Was I not specific enough?

[pouyasophy]

"Not a lot of submissions from guard, ergo jiujitsu is overrated"

Wow.

Pretty much...and not a lot of submissions period, unless the guy has very little BJJ experience. Face it, it's not 1999. Laying on someone wins fights. Submission "attempts" and making Joe Rogan yell "he's got an omiplata/americana!" and then 2 seconds later (which happens every time) the guy gets out. Face it. BJJ is worthless unless you're Big Nog and the other guy is Tim Sylvia.

[pouyasophy]

Pouyasophy: Stop making threads.

With all due respect, You shouldn't bet if you have multiple health and alcohol problems. First things first....your health.. Also, from what I've seen, you're a terrible gambler at multiple sports. You should probably rethink your strategies.

[Rubber Guard]

Why would Kos be more likely to get subbed than Fitch?!

Because he is an idiot who gets in guard and will throw bombs. There is no evidence because he hasn't been subb'd in a long time. But he is never in that positions. Hendricks? No. Pierce? No. Hughes? No. GSP? No not really. Paul Daley? No. Rumble? No. Trigg? No. Paulo? Maybe, but he KO'd him before we saw anything. Yoshida was KO'd in the first. Alves was a stand up fight.

At least Fitch has been in those positions. BJ and Erick Silva has got his back and couldn't sub him. Where is Kos's sub D on display vs. anyone even decent on the ground?