[SBR Lou]

We've clearly witnessed a changing of the guards since Wimbledon, everything seemed to be at a standstill on the mens side prior to that. Rafa owned the French, Roger owned Wimbledon and even hard courts, and the WTA was the WTA.

Now we have Federer completely fallen from grace, Rafa the clear #1 to anyone paying attention, and a bunch of other up and coming and hungry young competitors in the fray. The WTA, well, it's still the WTA but there are some really exciting young stars like Caroline Wozniacki an Agnes Radwanska to look forward to, both future top 5's.

As a bettor, you may be frustrated with some of the upsets occurring lately, but as a tennis follower you have to think this is good and refreshing for the sport...

[Dark Horse]

Now we have Federer completely fallen from grace, Rafa the clear #1 to anyone paying attention, and a bunch of other up and coming and hungry young competitors in the fray.

Federer completely fallen from grace? After all these years he's no longer interested in the little tournaments. That was established earlier this year. But the Wimbledon final he played with Nadal not even a month ago could have gone either way. This type of pattern can be very useful from a betting perspective.

As in other sports, the up-and-coming hot shots who want to prove themselves would be good bet-on material. But I'd be more interested in fading top players, preferably with grand slams under their belts, when they've shown that they just don't care anymore in the little tournaments. The Williams sisters seem to follow this pattern; up for the big tournaments ('the playoffs'), but other interests during the 'regular season'.

I wouldn't touch Nadal right now, but there will come a time when he loses interest in the smaller tournaments. On the other hand, if this was Federer's first tournament after his crushing loss at Wimbledon, did we really expect him to come out swinging? Or is he at the age where he has to pace himself and the next 'X' on his calendar is the US Open?

[SBR Lou]

Federer completely fallen from grace? After all these years he's no longer interested in the little tournaments. That was established earlier this year. But the Wimbledon final he played with Nadal not even a month ago could have gone either way. This type of pattern can be very useful from a betting perspective.

As in other sports, the up-and-coming hot shots who want to prove themselves would be good bet-on material. But I'd be more interested in fading top players, preferably with grand slams under their belts, when they've shown that they just don't care anymore in the little tournaments. The Williams sisters seem to follow this pattern; up for the big tournaments ('the playoffs'), but other interests during the 'regular season'.

I wouldn't touch Nadal right now, but there will come a time when he loses interest in the smaller tournaments. On the other hand, if this was Federer's first tournament after his crushing loss at Wimbledon, did we really expect him to come out swinging? Or is he at the age where he has to pace himself and the next 'X' on his calendar is the US Open?

Maybe we weren't watching the same game, DH, but to me Federer was in fact trying to win yesterday. He simply mishit shots in both tiebreaks which would've made the difference, he didn't play bad at all, the match followed the pattern of most his 6 victories, 0 defeats versus Karlovic at that time. He simply didn't deliver in the tiebreaks off Ivo's second serves no less, that was inexcusable and the only real reason he lost the match. Lack of effort had nothing to do with it, maybe lack of confidence did.

[Shark79]

We've clearly witnessed a changing of the guards since Wimbledon, everything seemed to be at a standstill on the mens side prior to that. Rafa owned the French, Roger owned Wimbledon and even hard courts, and the WTA was the WTA.

Now we have Federer completely fallen from grace, Rafa the clear #1 to anyone paying attention, and a bunch of other up and coming and hungry young competitors in the fray. The WTA, well, it's still the WTA but there are some really exciting young stars like Caroline Wozniacki an Agnes Radwanska to look forward to, both future top 5's.

As a bettor, you may be frustrated with some of the upsets occurring lately, but as a tennis follower you have to think this is good and refreshing for the sport...

Happy that tennis has arise with young stars as you mentioned ... Wozniacki and Radwanska (if no injuries appear) will def. be in the top 5 in a few years.

Sad to say (as I mentioned the other day) that the US yet does not have a player to represent them with the standards many others have Agassi, Sampras (just to name recent players).

[Dark Horse]

Maybe we weren't watching the same game, DH, but to me Federer was in fact trying to win yesterday. He simply mishit shots in both tiebreaks which would've made the difference, he didn't play bad at all, the match followed the pattern of most his 6 victories, 0 defeats versus Karlovic at that time. He simply didn't deliver in the tiebreaks off Ivo's second serves no less, that was inexcusable and the only real reason he lost the match. Lack of effort had nothing to do with it, maybe lack of confidence did.

If he cared there wouldn't have been any tie breakers. I don't need to watch the game to know he's been losing in small tournaments this year. The question is why. You say he's over the hill. I say he's picking his spots.

The Wimbledon final, not even a month ago, should tell you what pattern you're looking at, i.e. if you're including motivational angles.

[SBR Lou]

If he cared there wouldn't have been any tie breakers.

Nonsense, out of 7 matches with Karlovic there were 11 tiebreakers. Karlovic rifles down so many aces per set and affords himself so many cheap points against anyone, look at his match with Nadal this year at Queens, a 3 setter and each set was a TB.

[Dark Horse]

Whatever. If you don't want to see underlying motivational angles, don't. Keep doing what you're doing.

[SBR Lou]

Whatever. If you don't want to see underlying motivational angles, don't. Keep doing what you're doing.

If maintaining his status as #1 in the world isn't a motivational factor to rally around, yeah I guess he tanked versus Karlo on purpose.

All I'm saying is, he gave it as much as he could IMO, he just didn't perform like he used to under pressure in those TB's, talent wise his shots were there, his confidence wasn't. I don't feel it was a lack of effort itself.

[Dark Horse]

OK. Then don't recognize a difference between grand slams and the rest of the tournaments for Federer. Good luck.

[SBR Lou]

OK. Then don't recognize a difference between grand slams and the rest of the tournaments for Federer. Good luck.

DH, I love debating with you. Even if I am wrong. I was upset with Federer as a bettor but I did think he played pretty well other than the TB's, it was blistering hot there and when he got a chance to return serve I feel he took them. He conserved enough energy to coast (for the most part) on his service games. We'll see what he does in the US open.