[Eliot Jacobson]

Studies say software cheats players at 2 online casinos,

By Mark Gruetze, PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Friday, November 18, 2011
Last updated: 2:37 pm

[Kasinas]

Thanks for the article. I think all casinos cheat in one or another way. Nobody wants to loose.

[C.S.]

No, most online casinos don't cheat. They don't have to. The player losing his money over the course of time is built into the game, just like Vegas, AC, Indian spots, etc.

[mighty maron]

No, most online casinos don't cheat. They don't have to. The player losing his money over the course of time is built into the game, just like Vegas, AC, Indian spots, etc.

They dont have to cheat...just like full tilt, Ultimate Bet, and Absolute Poker didnt have to cheat because they make so much money off of rake. They did cheat however.

5dimes is the only place I feel safe outside of casinos from the UK...cant play those however.

[Eliot Jacobson]

It is outrageous that Legends defends its use of the corrupt BLR casino software.

First, the RNG has nothing to do with rigging the software. It may be that they opted out of using the feature that allows the results to be rigged, if such a feature exists. However, the way the software cheats is that the software weights the outcomes of craps in such a way that it guarantees a huge winning edge for the casino. If the RNG chooses a number according to that weighting, it makes no difference that a new RNG is used. It makes no difference how the random number is chosen, if it is already determined that a "7" is rolled over 50% of the time.

Second, Legends continues to use software that they know has the potential to be rigged, and has been used to offer rigged games at other casinos. They continue to use a rogue product offered and supported by a rogue company. They continue to accept real money wagers on a product that is known to have cheated people at other casinos and may be cheating people at their own casino.

Third, giving Rachel Miller the benefit of the doubt is no better. If she is not technically savvy and simply does not understand the issue, but insists that changing the RNG fixed the problem, then the implication is that Legends knew the software was rogue. It means that Legends was aware that the software is able to cheat players, and that Legends made an attempt to disable that feature. They may call that fixing the RNG or whatever, but it makes no difference. They went through the trouble to fix the RNG because they knew that the off-the-shelf product could be used to cheat players.

These three points make the continued use of BLR software indefensible for Legends. I have no idea why they continue to stand behind the product, given their A+ rating. I brought this matter to this site because of its position of influence. I hope the moderators of this site will consider sanctions against Legends for its ongoing irresponsible actions in this matter.

[Kindred]

can't believe legends response...never play there again.

5dimes handled this in the only way possible, drop the rigged software. Shouldn't have been using it anyway, why the hell did outsiders have to figure out your casino software was rigged?? 5dimes and Legends didn't know about this, then what's the point in rigging the casino? Why would the software developer rig the casino to benefit the operator without telling them.

5dimes and legends are scum..there is no other explanation. Not possible they didn't know about it. Should be front page news here at SBR...but too many braindead degenerates and too much money to be made from A+ Sponsors.

Pathetic

SBR, Legends, 5dimes

[BAUS]

Good on 5dimes to dump this software. Shame on Legends.

BAUS

[relaaxx]

No, most online casinos don't cheat. They don't have to. The player losing his money over the course of time is built into the game, just like Vegas, AC, Indian spots, etc.

while mostly true, big difference is online casinos do cheat, just because they can and easily.

[BigDaddy]

"it's outrageous"

lol

what do expect them to do?


steak tartar will be in here soon enough to let you know were idiots

legends A+ sportsbook

yes

A+ casino

no

[NotSoBad]

Did this "wizard of odds" guy make a test in Legends?

[mighty maron]

Did this "wizard of odds" guy make a test in Legends?

I dont think so. The original complaint was BLR at world wide. The wizard followed it up with a test at 5dimes. I dont know about legends.

[SBR Lou]

Did this "wizard of odds" guy make a test in Legends?

Nope.

Legends (SBR rating A+) invests thousands into their casino - they have their own RNG for every server. Like Pinnacle (SBR rating A+) did with ASI, Legends has revamped and enhanced the stock BLR you might have seen in other places. They would be open to giving play-money to have the game tested --- and if any casino reviewer site wanted to put money where their mouth is, they are free to test randomly too. Of course every site will be discredited if it doesn't chirp along the "OMG casinos are rigged!" belief, but I reckon facts can disrupt a good story.

[Eliot Jacobson]

Legends (SBR rating A+) invests thousands into their casino - they have their own RNG for every server. Like Pinnacle (SBR rating A+) did with ASI, Legends has revamped and enhanced the stock BLR you might have seen in other places.

The RNG has nothing to do with the rogue behavior, as I have repeatedly stated. This is the line Legends is giving, but they fundamentally do not understand the issue with the software. No RNG can create the cheating behavior the software displayed, just as no RNG can guide a missle.

If they invested in revamping it, that has to be based on knowing it is flawed. What company is going to invest in re-coding a proprietary product? It never happens.

The points are that (1) that the software is rogue, (2) that it has been used to cheat players, (3) Legends knows that it has been used to cheat players, and (4) Legends took steps to have their software not exhibit rouge behavior. This is prima facie admission by Legends that they know they are dealing with a crooked company. What company would knowingly and publicly align themselves with crooks? Legends, apparently.

[mighty maron]

Nope.

Legends (SBR rating A+) invests thousands into their casino - they have their own RNG for every server. Like Pinnacle (SBR rating A+) did with ASI, Legends has revamped and enhanced the stock BLR you might have seen in other places. They would be open to giving play-money to have the game tested --- and if any casino reviewer site wanted to put money where their mouth is, they are free to test randomly too. Of course every site will be discredited if it doesn't chirp along the "OMG casinos are rigged!" belief, but I reckon facts can disrupt a good story.

I emailed them two weeks ago asking to do this. Try Legends software with play money. They said it does not have that capablility and denied my request.

Nov 4th was the day I emailed them I think

Greetings from Legends.com! Unfortunately, we do not have a play chip mode on our Casino.

If you have additional questions or doubts, please do not hesitate to contact us again.

Kind regards,


Customer Service Department
Legends.com
E-mail: cs@legends.com
Phone: 1-888-282-8989 / 1-800-246-9828

[SBR Lou]

Elliot,

You seem the type that would argue the casino became "unrigged" during an established test. Why don't you take it upon yourself to randomly test the casino? I'm sure if you record the entire test with the purpose of immediately uploading your conclusions, Legends might be willing to reimburse you. This way it establishes beyond a doubt that no "settings were changed" prior to a test everybody knew was coming. We can ask them to confirm if you're interested in actually doing something other than blogging away in theory about what you presume to understand technically.

My company (Certified Fair Gambling) tests online casinos for fairness.

Ah, knew there was some angle here. Nice mention in the article you linked over. Get to testing then? Or is your angle that you'd like to be compensated?

[prop]

The point here is this wasn't the case of a faulty random number generator, it was rigged casino software. When it was brought up on SBR staff inquired and reported back that Legends is using their own hard coded RNG. A further discussion started but it was moved to a new thread. A Legends executive then quoted a newspaper on why her casino was different again stating they used their own RNG.

The only casinos that can it can be said conclusively cheated craps players are wager.dm and 5dimes. 5dimes did remove the casino immediately, though has clearly stated those cheated by it before it being removed will not be refunded.

There are several things not conclusive.

1) 5Dimes should have known this software was cheating players and any serious casino would have known because they would see they were running an impossible figure to achieve above expectation. However it is possible 5Dimes is not aware what's happening in their casino, as its a side offer and they're busy setting lines or whatever. If after this incident has happened the situation was to happen again you could at that point start to call 5Dimes a cheat or grossly negligent. The benefit of the doubt is probably warranted here however, and they did remove it as soon as they were caught using it.

2) Legends no one tested their software, because honestly Legends is not even really on the map outside of SBR and a few other promoting them, and certainly most casino focused sites are not familiar with them. This is evident comparing their traffic stats to those of other gambling sites. There's no reason to test every single skin and see. A problem came up on one site using this network, then another site was tested. Did their software also cheat? This HIGHLY likely, but not conclusive (certainly now the whistle has been blown its too late to test it). What is conclusive is Legends defense for why their software is different holds no water at all. This was rigged software not faulty RNG such as Planet Poker type deal. If it was a poor RNG causing the problems it would have been exploited as opposed to reported. So a high probability Legends just simply covered their tracks - but again there is a very small bit of doubt to suggest MAYBE for some reason their casino was different - but again this is highly unlikely.

At this point it would be highly advised to avoid casino software of online sportsbooks, especially with ones licenced in Panama or Costa Rica - through ultimately it doesn't make a difference because a Malta or Gibraltar company can cheat just the same though has a little higher risk.

Another thing worth pointing out is only the craps game was tested. Its possible there were other games as well. Bottom line here casino software can cheat - and these sites are unregulated and no is going to catch them and there is very little consequences involved in being caught.

[prop]

Nope.

Legends (SBR rating A+) invests thousands into their casino - they have their own RNG for every server. Like Pinnacle (SBR rating A+) did with ASI, Legends has revamped and enhanced the stock BLR you might have seen in other places. They would be open to giving play-money to have the game tested --- and if any casino reviewer site wanted to put money where their mouth is, they are free to test randomly too. Of course every site will be discredited if it doesn't chirp along the "OMG casinos are rigged!" belief, but I reckon facts can disrupt a good story.

This is LOL, I was making my post before his one and the others followed. In addition to not understanding poker issues it is now apparent SBRLou is clueless about casino industry as well. I have a feeling if you were at all aware of who the OP of this thread was you probably would have ignored this thread as surely SBR rating a company A+ a TRUE advocate of fair gaming casinomeister has in the rouge pit is going to get some SERIOUS attention - and adding ridiculous comments to discredit one of the leading gambling math experts (who did not hide his identity because he registered with his real name and linked a MAJOR media source outside gambling which quotes him) who just told you the legends RNG argument is flawed with they have their own RNG insinuating he was an "OMG casino are rigged" theorist wouldn't shine well on SBR and it would have been better to ignore it - considering its a tough economy and there is no chance in hell SBR ever sides against one of their sponsors.

[prop]

Elliot,

You seem the type that would argue the casino became "unrigged" during an established test. Why don't you take it upon yourself to randomly test the casino? I'm sure if you record the entire test with the purpose of immediately uploading your conclusions, Legends might be willing to reimburse you. This way it establishes beyond a doubt that no "settings were changed" prior to a test everybody knew was coming. We can ask them to confirm if you're interested in actually doing something other than blogging away in theory about what you presume to understand technically.

Ah, knew there was some angle here. Nice mention in the article you linked over. Get to testing then? Or is your angle that you'd like to be compensated?

WOW! SBRLou Dr. Eliot Jacobson is one of the most recognized authorities on gaming software and math. There is no chance in hell he would show up here if you were not touting a potential rogue site as A+. Your "you seem like the type" comments are disgusting.. I'm at a loss of words beyond that.

[NotSoBad]

Let me see if I get it.

According to Legends they use these RNGs: http://www.idquantique.com/true-rand...-overview.html http://www.idquantique.com/images/st...whitepaper.pdf
http://www.idquantique.com/news/press-releases.html http://www.idquantique.com/company/awards.html

This is Eliot's site http://www.jacobsongaming.com/Certif..._Gambling.html http://www.jacobsongaming.com/Associates.html (note "wizard of odds" as an associate) "Additional quality assurance services include: Certification of the implementation of the casino's RNG"

If I was going to put my money on one company, it wouldn't be Eliot's, nor Legends but I would give them the benefit of the doubt comparing the info of www.idquantique.com vrs Eliot's Vegas "mathematicians" certified by God knows who...

But guess what? I won't because only morons play on online casinos. My money is not there.

Eliot, you are looking for free advertisement among books because you know their managers read this. That's low man.

[Eliot Jacobson]

In case this isn't clear, I am posting here because there are few options to get leverage on Legends to force them to stop offering the rogue BLR product. There is the article at WoO. Casinomeister has put Legends on its rogue list. There is an article published, linked as above. But, without financial leverage, Legends continues to operate the rogue BLR product. I was told this might be the right forum to get that leverage. Now, I am not so sure.

If the administrators here believe I am here to promote myself, then please, just bust the thread. I have no interest in that kind of reception to my efforts.

To those who are in a position to have some influence, please, do what you can to pressure Legends.

[NotSoBad]

Eliot, make a video and prove your word. Talk is cheap. Prove you are right.

[in play, run(s)]

So it's a fact BLR rigged their software. Now, why would they do that, if they don't see a penny of the players money? There is only one logical reason, they incorporated this as a "feature" to get more customers interested in their software. And if it's a feature they worked hard on to implement, they for sure advertised this feature to their customers. Everything else would make no sense. So if Legends or 5dimes claim they didn't KNOW about this, it's very likely not the truth. And the scenario that they knew about it, but just didn't opt in to use the rogue capabilities, is also very unlikely, for a very simple reason. No legit book would take the risk of using casino software which has the capability of being rigged, because when that info becomes public for any reason, it would have a very negative impact on their reputation. So why would they want to take that risk?

[NotSoBad]

If you make a video of Legends casino and you are right, I am sure SBR will get the players their money back. If you are wrong... well... your name will have a stain as big as BLR does... but you claim you are right so... I can't wait to see what's next. I must admit I was a fool playing $20 at their casino. I wouldn't mind getting $20 back if you're right.

[C.S.]

5dimes is the only place I feel safe outside of casinos from the UK...cant play those however.

And they used cheating software... real sharp.

[sharpcat]

If you make a video of Legends casino and you are right, I am sure SBR will get the players their money back. If you are wrong... well... your name will have a stain as big as BLR does... but you claim you are right so... I can't wait to see what's next. I must admit I was a fool playing $20 at their casino. I wouldn't mind getting $20 back if you're right.

WTF is your problem?

The man is bringing to attention the fact that Legendz is using casino software that has been proven to be capable of being rigged to give the house huge advantage and you attack the mans credentials.

The problem had nothing to do with the RNG and even if it did it is shady as hell that Legendz decided to use their own RNG suggesting that they (and 5dimes) knew the game was rigged to their advantage. No way should any casino continue to use a software platform that has been proven to cheat players whether they claim to have fixed the problem or not.

[Kindred]

How did 5dimes and legendz not know it was rigged in the first place????? Lou answer that one?

5dimes was RIGGED and it was to benefit 5dimes. Don't try to play it off as the software provider doing it without 5 dimes knowing. Why the fuckkkk would they do that. They wanted 5dimes to win more

silence is better than trying to spin the story with bullshit. I never said anything bad about SBR but you guys are dropping the ball on this one. So is 5dimes..not sure what else they can do but it's obvious they had to know about it before it became public. Pretty slimey and it's shit like this thats destroying the industry, we'll end up with regulated online casinos juiced as bad as the lottery

[mighty maron]

And they used cheating software... real sharp.

I have withdrawn more from their casino than I deposited.....

[Kindred]

I have withdrawn more from their casino than I deposited.....

and you have an avatar of a shemale what's your phuckkin point pal?

Go talk to wizard of odds and tell him 5dimes is the bomb cause you won $10 playing nickel slots and that proves his analysis is wrong numbnuts

[mighty maron]

and you have an avatar of a shemale what's your phuckkin point pal?

Go talk to wizard of odds and tell him 5dimes is the bomb cause you won $10 playing nickel slots and that proves his analysis is wrong numbnuts

The assumptions one makes when one does not know...I have won a lot more......

Like I said 5dimes is the only place where I trust....my money...my decision where I put it and play it

[Kindred]

The assumptions one makes when one does not know...I have won a lot more......

Like I said 5dimes is the only place where I trust....my money...my decision where I put it and play it

well tranny maybe you can answer my question..how long did 5dimes have their casino rigged..why did they rig it and if you claim they didn't know it was rigged then who the **** rigged it in their favor and didn't tell them?

So you trust somebody who steals with your money...not the sharpest shemale are ya

How in the world would 5dimes not know they were stealing from players with software rigged in the houses favor? It was done that way on purpose..it benefits 5dimes..who rigged it and why?????????

But hey it's all good, gamblers are so stupid this will just blow over like a fart in the wind. I don't think I enjoy being part of the gambling community anymore. It's embarrassing..the average gambler has the IQ of a toddler.

[boymimbo]

Mike Shackleford (Wizard of Odds) tested 5 Dimes and posted videos. This caused 5 Dimes to take their BLR casino off of their offereings. Eliot Jacobsen ran a test at WorldWide and got the same incredibly biased results that 5 Dimes got. Another user posted videos showing 856 wins in 3,200 attempts. Both Mike and Eliot are known as industry leaders in fair gaming, but the math used to figure out if a game is biased or not is not beyong high school math.

Legends is the only other active casino that uses their software. The site was not tested... yet.

Legends's explanation about the RNG may be true, but the RNG is not the problem. It's the results that the RNG produces that is the problem. All the RNG is produce a number - the (BLR) program manipulates that result to produce more 3s than 7s on the come out roll when betting PASS (and then many more 7s than points) and the opposite during DON'T pass. This analysis is over on the Wizard of Vegas.

For example, on don't pass, on 2600 experiments, the distribution was as follows for the come out roll: 7: 530, 2: 34, 3: 52, 11: 171 and a point number the rest of the time. The 3 should have been thrown 149 times and the 7 should have been thrown 445 times. It's clearly cheating.

On the pass line with 600 come out rolls, the 7 was thrown 45 times (should be 100) while the 3 was thrown 59 times (should be 33). Once again, this is impossible in real world, and the software is cheating.

5Dimes and WorldWide need to reimburse its players for losses in craps at that casino to restore its integrity. Legends needs to make an offer to fund someone's account with say $300 in guaranteed losses and let them play it out and put their money where their mouth is. A $1 pass line bet over that many trials was sufficient enough to prove that 5 dimes' software was cheating them.

There is a long post from the president of Galewind (at Wizard of Vegas, http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambl...-3200-wins/17/ who provides the casino software for Pinnacle. He explains that it was doubtful that the sportsbook knew it was cheating:

Does the Sportsbook owner know that its game is rigged?

IMO, an unqualified no. The Sportsbook owner is aware that they have a Casino product, and is aware that this product makes some sort of impact on their financial bottom line. Beyond that, everything else is either on the edge of the radar screen, or off the screen altogether.

I would be surprised if they knew what specific games were in the Casino, what Theoretical RTP means, or what the Actual RTP is for any game in specific, or for the Casino in general, in any given month.

Their number one focus is the Sportsbook. If they offer an interface into one of the Poker networks, then that would probably be the number two focus. Awareness of Casino details would be a distant third place.

My best guess is that the software provider gets its revenue through a sharing agreement and that the software was rigged to give them a larger slice of revenue.

So someone needs to test Legends.

[pokerplayer22]

Mike Shackleford (Wizard of Odds) tested 5 Dimes and posted videos. This caused 5 Dimes to take their BLR casino off of their offereings. Eliot Jacobsen ran a test at WorldWide and got the same incredibly biased results that 5 Dimes got. Another user posted videos showing 856 wins in 3,200 attempts. Both Mike and Eliot are known as industry leaders in fair gaming, but the math used to figure out if a game is biased or not is not beyong high school math.

Legends is the only other active casino that uses their software. The site was not tested... yet.

Legends's explanation about the RNG may be true, but the RNG is not the problem. It's the results that the RNG produces that is the problem. All the RNG is produce a number - the (BLR) program manipulates that result to produce more 3s than 7s on the come out roll when betting PASS (and then many more 7s than points) and the opposite during DON'T pass. This analysis is over on the Wizard of Vegas.

For example, on don't pass, on 2600 experiments, the distribution was as follows for the come out roll: 7: 530, 2: 34, 3: 52, 11: 171 and a point number the rest of the time. The 3 should have been thrown 149 times and the 7 should have been thrown 445 times. It's clearly cheating.

On the pass line with 600 come out rolls, the 7 was thrown 45 times (should be 100) while the 3 was thrown 59 times (should be 33). Once again, this is impossible in real world, and the software is cheating.

5Dimes and WorldWide need to reimburse its players for losses in craps at that casino to restore its integrity. Legends needs to make an offer to fund someone's account with say $300 in guaranteed losses and let them play it out and put their money where their mouth is. A $1 pass line bet over that many trials was sufficient enough to prove that 5 dimes' software was cheating them.

There is a long post from the president of Galewind (at Wizard of Vegas, http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambl...-3200-wins/17/ who provides the casino software for Pinnacle. He explains that it was doubtful that the sportsbook knew it was cheating:



My best guess is that the software provider gets its revenue through a sharing agreement and that the software was rigged to give them a larger slice of revenue.

So someone needs to test Legends.

Well said

[GamblingPrincessXOXO]

So someone needs to test Legends.

Agreed

Treat this like an STD.

BLR slept with 5dimes, WWW and Legends. 5dimes and WWW were tested and found to have STDs. Legends claims to have worn a rubber. The rubber may have broke, but don't call them out until their tests results come back.