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hey str
kind of a rhetorical question but in a 4f sprint race (run them at fonner) is being a good sprint jockey important.. guessing good out of the gate skills come into play with that ?? top 3 finishers were the best 3 sprint jocks and the winner paid $11..i was on the 7% sprint jockey @ 3-1.. out lol
I didn’t notice thatOriginally Posted by str
thanks for sharing
and glad you enjoyed it
You know anything about this EHV-1
these woodbine horses got?
horse herpes?
these are weird articles
We talked about War of Will , leading up to the race a few weeks back that Casse ended up scratching and going to Cali for straight grade 1.
how should a handicapper look at this?
first off your trying turf for first time, and coulda of ran both while getting a race underneath
Another train of thought suggests , he’s so ready that the next one is gonna be biggie
I wasn’t even gonna use the horse in original race
I’m actually more intrigued now, but the sane barn is also shipping out March to the Arch
I rarely in my lifetime seen casse ship to Cali
but maybe I just was mistaken or forgot
I know you need more specifics to answer properly
but a general convo , you have a horse big time success on dirt as 3 year old , you decide to switch to turf , you have an opportunity to run a stakes race , you scratch and wait another 3-4 weeks to return on grade 1.
i made a note in my thread about how Casse ( who I’m the not biggest fan of) , has been doing great work with horses off the bench and is loaded with those currently.
I hope you don't mind me taking a crack just on the pedigree angle.. war front out of a sadlers well mare is about the pinnacle of turf pedigrees.. you have to think about trying the turf with those bloodlines imo and have a hunch he might be thinking along those same lines
Of course not
I get that
im more asking
is he so confident to go straight to grade one
remember he was 10/1 m/l but that’s gulf so was gonna be 3/1 I’m sure
I was still gonna take stand against
but if this works out , which I think it will eventually
breeding goes up
i mean war front is pretty much class of class on turf breeding
just fill me in a little because I haven't been following.. wow is trying turf for the first time in a grade 1?
I did a little research.. he may run in the shoemaker mile a week from now and that'll be his debut race as a 4yo..to me that speaks a lot to what he must think of his ability on turf because I'm sure they could have found an easier spot
as good as war front is and he is the most expensive stallion in the states, sadlers wells dwarfs him as a turf sire.. so combine them I can understand casse's confidence in trying him in such a difficult spot first time on the turf
and that's without knowing specifics about the dam as a runner or producer as a broodmare
bottom line I'm not surprised at all he's trying it and as you said if he can do both that will just increase his value as a stallion.. with wells on the bottom you got to try the turf imo no matter what his dirt record is
I also should be more clear
scratching the day of
or 18 hours prior
when you already were set
has to be a negative
not just all a sudden
we now decided to ship
to run weeks later
all the while off a lay-off
Geldings:
do you think this is done too often in an effort to try and find something in a horse that you know will never become a money making stallion?
If unsuccessful on the race course , does it cause Or assist any issues upon retirement?
I’d assume geldings have a pretty boring life after racing , and limits their care afterwards
not to mention the chance of being over raced to try and get a few more dollars
that's a strange combo scratch and then decide to try the turf first time in a grade 1.. to me speaks volumes of his confidence that he'll run well on the turf..the 2nd question would be better for str
hey str
there's a horse I like at will rogers..he's coming from prarie meadows where he was running with bute which is not allowed at will rogers ..is that just a guess kind of thing as to whether that matters ? big longshot anyway so no way to tell if that's the difference maker
Being a top speed rider AND a top gate rider typically go hand in hand. Not always but usually. Going 4 F, betting a top gate rider is essential. Knowing the best 3 sprint riders is huge. It darn near handicaps the race for you.
Basically, yes. Horse herpes.
I'm pretty sure darn near every horse has had it at some point. Have to think most contract it while very young and on a farm as a weanling or yearling if not earlier than that.
The neurological problems associated with it was not present on the track when
I trained. At least not enough to become associated with EHV-1. So I never had to deal with it like trainers have to today.
Scary stuff and it can shut you down for a while if a horse in the same barn comes down with it.
It's nasty stuff Kid.
Q. We talked about War of Will , leading up to the race a few weeks back that Casse ended up scratching and going to Cali for straight grade 1.
how should a handicapper look at this?
A. I saw he scratched . I looked at that not so much as a negative but wanting to find the best circumstance for the horses debut. But then he chooses the G1 in Calif. and I thought "what?". Plenty of spots to start him off and ease him into it better than that one. So, what do we make of it. Well, Casse certainly does not lack confidence in him going out there and running in THAT race. So I guess that should be taken as a positive. And while you never know about "liking" the surface, That horse not liking grass would be like Nathans kids not liking hot dogs. I mean, damn, it's hard to find more turf blood than he has.
That said, it sounds like a tall order. But I have to think the price will be right . My guess? Play a 3 horse box, use him for a decent price but you can still hit if he needs one. Safe, practical and seems to make sense. That's probably what I would do.
Q. first off your trying turf for first time, and coulda of ran both while getting a race underneath
Another train of thought suggests , he’s so ready that the next one is gonna be biggie
I wasn’t even gonna use the horse in original race
I’m actually more intrigued now, but the sane barn is also shipping out March to the Arch
A. Guess he figures he's going out anyway, let's run there. Also, gotts think this would be his last year running and the big objective would be the Breeders Cup. Sure, he wants to make a splash here if he can but all moves point to November.
Q. I rarely in my lifetime seen casse ship to Cali
but maybe I just was mistaken or forgot
A. If you forgot, so did I. I can't think of him out there.
Q. but a general convo , you have a horse big time success on dirt as 3 year old , you decide to switch to turf , you have an opportunity to run a stakes race , you scratch and wait another 3-4 weeks to return on grade 1.
A. Yes. But remember, he has everything to gain and little to lose with the turf move. It will not be held against the horse come breeding time if he does not take to turf or run well which could be blamed on turf whether it really was or not. But if he runs well, he becomes solid on both surfaces. Kind of a break even or win scenario.
I think the move makes perfect sense financially. And at this point, all moves have to be with breeding down the road.
Q. i made a note in my thread about how Casse ( who I’m the not biggest fan of) , has been doing great work with horses off the bench and is loaded with those currently.
A. I'm with you on all that. He's loaded and done a fine job lately off the bench.
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Not sure it is all confidence or a lack of other places to run. The horse is ready to go and he doesn't want to wait another month probably.
Just a guess as I have no idea what is opening up and what's in the 1st book to run in. Seems like the horse is sitting on ready and he wants to get the party started.
All this is solid thought process IMO. At a short price you toss, but at 8-1 you use him as well as others.
Kind of takes the gamble of the unknown out of the equation so it seems.
Sorry for the delay in answering these. Work will ease up in another week or so.
Agree fully.
And like I said earlier, everything to gain, very little to lose.
Good spot to be in.
I think there's one thing you can say about sadlers wells (deceased)that you can't say about any other dam sires ..one of the greatest sires of all time besides pops ..northern dancer..even with the best us sires the ones who were turf could usually get runners on both surfaces danzig,dynaformer and kris s to name a few..wells was strictly extreme distance,top class and turf only (maybe a few exceptions but not many)..so when you have him on the bottom it's almost sacrilegious to not try turf..you don't see it much as I think without looking (and I will) he was an early 80's foal
1981 foal
Thanks str!
cant express enough how much you’ve help and continue to take time to share
hey str
a lightweight college wrestler who's never been on a horse (i use this example because he's a good athlete and light)you think if he had a day and an open track and a top jockey showing him the ropes he could be working out horses by the end of the day?
By working out I will assume you mean, galloping and not breezing?
Galloping, I guess but I am saying that because it's a loaded question. Lol . It seems crazy to attempt . Maybe it's a Guinness book of records thing. Will also assume the horse was an old timer who could train itself.
But breezing or working out? That would seem insane to attempt.
Lol. Can't wait to hear the answer.
no I actually was thinking more along the lines breezing and should have said that..what brought this up was a long time ago I heard that pat day was a state champion
wrestler in high school and I thought that makes some sense..quickness,strength,balance,strate gy ..seems like a wrestler (lightest weight class of course) would possess the type of baseline skills needed to be a good jockey..so I thought ,OK most (99.8%) probably will not but if was just a matter of can we get a great athlete to the point of being
able to breeze a horse in a days time..a week most won't ever be able to do it ?..i'm just trying to get at how hard is it to do with no traffic issues( like breezing in a workout) for somebody who is a very talented athlete
have one more for you concerning a horse today.. if you can't get to it in time no big deal.. more the subject I'm interested in.. albert stall who of course for a long time is one the top midwest trainers.. has a first time starter whose a homebred with a modest pedigree.. one you'd expect to be a claimer throughout his career.. nice speed influence dam sire and a relatively new sire with a $3k fee.. know you're not a big workout guy (understatement lol).. this horse is debuting for $10k and his last work ranking wise was 4f in 47:4 .. 2/87 breezing from the gate at fairgrounds .. 3yo.. understand not being that concerned with times if you like a horse for reasons that you have discussed.. but how about the other way around with a horse like this?? big work like that at a major track and you're willing to lose him for $10k.. 20-30k could understand but $10k kind of low
Last edited by JBEX; 05-22-20 at 11:01 AM.
looked again his last work was 3/28..might be a clue?
Last edited by JBEX; 05-22-20 at 11:02 AM.
won by about 3 lengths @8-5 and not claimed.. think I've brought this up before and it's just not a good assumption..one race doesn't prove or disprove this is right or wrong
Q. .so I thought ,OK most (99.8%) probably will not but if was just a matter of can we get a great athlete to the point of being
able to breeze a horse in a days time..a week most won't ever be able to do it ?.
A. I never had anyone breeze a horse for me before at least a year. Earliest was probably Miike Hunter who I taught from day 1 and became a jockey.
Q. .i'm just trying to get at how hard is it to do with no traffic issues( like breezing in a workout) for somebody who is a very talented athlete
A. Being a great athlete would certainly speed up the process but I would be hard pressed even with a young Pat Day to think he would be capable of breezing a horse sooner than at least 6-9 months of galloping 8 horses or more everyday.
They make it look easy but it is incredibly difficult to learn from scratch and because so much is little situations that arise, only time and experience can allow all those things to crop up. Just can't rush situations /experience.
The workout certainly would catch peoples eye and betting the horse would probably of made good sense although he was 8-5 as a firster. Or maybe, just sit the race out and don't bet against might have been a strategy.
But as for claiming, the horse would have needed to look half decent ( because there is no form to go off of), and have decent legs. Unless the horse checked those boxes, it would probably be best to watch the horse run once. Just my opinion though.
As I have said in here before, I've seen horses that can't break 3/8's in 40 in the morning and be Stakes horses in the afternoon and I have seen horses work 58 and change and be well off the board in Md. 7500 races.
Sometimes, it's crazy to see but it does happen.
Will agree though that 10k seems low but thats why he wins and has for such a long time.
True, but he did win and we know off that that he can win nw/2 and 3 for something at a minimum.
Another good catch JBEX.
this is great information to know.. I always wondered just how difficult it would be for a great athlete to be able to learn how to do that without being in a race .. 6-9 months really gives you a good idea how much skill is involved in doing that
I kind of was looking at it from the other way around str.. like even though it's a modest pedigree with a work like that at a major track why put him up for $10k.. the guy who bred him I've seen his name around forever so have to think he's not hurting for money.. maybe the owners want to play the game aggressive and figure if we lose him so be it..in this case they didn't.. thanks for both str
Maybe my tv is too small
but I posted this in my thread
Did anybody see Jose stick out his left arm in the last few jumps on max field?
what was that? , first I thought he lost the whip
its race 10 at Churchill if you can view replay , or someone can share
the Matt winn
- side note irad goes to Cali , only gets one mount today and gets a foul!
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