1. #1
    jpete1966
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    Questions For Craps Players

    Just got back from Las Vegas and I have some questions for any serious craps players out there. I've been going to Vegas and playing craps for at least 15 years now and it is the same story every time. Buy in for $200-$400, take $32 inside or $54 across, sometimes take the pass line with single odds. Money is pretty much gone in 10 to 30 minutes. Go to another table or two and repeat with pretty much the same results. Always end up making it back or trying to make it back on sports bets only to repeat the same process over and over again.

    So here's my question. Does anyone actually make money on craps? The whole 1% house advantage seems like total b.s. It seems like you are always searching for that monster roll and going broke in the process. After this trip it pretty much reminded me of Keno and someone hoping to cash in a big ticket while winning pretty much nothing. It seems like you always have $75 in action to win $14 and if your lucky enough to press your bets the board gets wiped down still leaving you down. Don't get me wrong, I love the game but I'm a fairly conservative player and I've never won more than a couple hundred $$ at the game and when I did it was immediately taken at the next table I went to. It seems like you have an awful lot at risk to win a little. Either I'm the unluckiest person at picking tables or this game isn't all it's cracked up to be. I've never went to 8 different blackjack tables and lost my buy-in without getting a dime back but with craps it seems to be almost everytime. I'm just sick of constantly winnig $$ at sports in Vegas only to give it right back on craps with little return. Does anyone have different results when they play or is this pretty much the experience for everyone else?

  2. #2
    flywhiteboy82
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    i'd say ur pretty unlucky I don't play craps every weekend but usually when I play I usually walk away with more money then I came with u just need to be on the right table with the dice in the right hands

  3. #3
    floridagolfer
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    The first thing I'd do is look at your money management.

    Every time you lay out that much money playing the 4-5-6-8-9-10, you've got to hit a lot of those just to make any profit. I don't know what the percentages are, but hitting enough of them just to recoup your $32 doesn't seem to be a very wise play. For every time a roller gets you paid six or seven times before throwing the game-ending 7, I think you're doubly likely to collect on one of them, or perhaps none of them. Before you play next time, just stand next to a table for 30 minutes and count the number of times this happens; I think you might be surprised.

    I'd probably spend more money playing the odds on certain points (5, 6, 8, 9) and perhaps you could try to surround the point instead of playing five of the six.

    Yes, I do think you can make money on craps, but most of the time my winnings are moderate.

  4. #4
    gryfyn1
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpete1966 View Post
    J Buy in for $200-$400, take $32 inside or $54 across, sometimes take the pass line with single odds.
    Thats what you're doing wrong/

  5. #5
    Joe Dogs
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    With a $200-$400 bankroll I think your best option is to play the pass line with odds and place the 6 and the 8.

    This sounds Conservative but I believe this type of play is more suited to this type of bankroll.....Good Luck.

  6. #6
    MonkeyF0cker
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    The only bet I'll EVER make on a craps table is Don't Pass with full odds when I have friends in town. Otherwise, I'd NEVER play it.

  7. #7
    easywinner
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    Isn't the don't pass with full odds bet the lowest house edge at the craps table? Can someone confirm this?

  8. #8
    ryanjep
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    dont pass with full odds is the best craps bet. i believe its.01% better than pass with odds

  9. #9
    HotStreak
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    Your playing too many numbers.

    Stick to pass line with max odds, and 2 Come bets with max odds.

    You also need a bigger bankroll to handle the swings associated with the fast action of the craps table.

  10. #10
    Dirty Sanchez
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    Some would say that Craps is the best odds in the Casino for the player as YOU are in control of your money if you're smart and don't get greedy. The problem is players go beyond the 6-8...Pass Line strategy....and don't come down on their money after hitting a few times.

  11. #11
    HotStreak
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    Also, that low house edge you are looking for, comes from playing the max odds. Placing the numbers as you are doing gives away more to the house.

    Pass or Dont Pass then place max odds. Come or Dont Come then place max odds. These bets give the least away to the house.

  12. #12
    Flight
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    Quote Originally Posted by easywinner View Post
    Isn't the don't pass with full odds bet the lowest house edge at the craps table? Can someone confirm this?
    Yes

    The proper way to play craps is to lay minimum bet on Don't Pass and then max bet behind it. It is very easy yet out of thousands of players I've observed, maybe 5 actually play this way. Others play Pass with max odds which is also okay but don't pass is better (because of push on 12).


    If a table has $10 min and 10x odds this is the way to play it:


    1) $10 on Don't Pass
    2) number is rolled (say 4)
    2a) Lay (10)(betsize)(the numbers' odds) = (10)(10)(2.0) = $200
    2b) Bet $10 on Don't Come
    3) number is rolled (say 6)
    3a) Lay (10)(betsize)(the numbers' odds) = (10)(10)(1.2) = $120
    3b) Bet $10 on Don't Come
    4) number is rolled (say 9)
    4a) Lay (10)(10)(1.5) = $150
    4b) Bet $10 on Don't Come (D.C. is preferred table term)
    5) 7 out
    5a) Lose $10 D.C. bet
    5b) Win 9 straight and lay 9 = $10 + $10 + $150 + $100 = $270
    5c) Win 6 straight and lay 6 = $10 + $10 + $120 + $100 = $240
    5d) Win 4 straight and lay 4 = $10 + $10 + $200 + $100 = $320

    Total risk for this series = $510
    Total win for this series = $310


    When playing don't's, or lays as they are called, you play negative odds. Similar to playing favorites in sports betting.

    4/10 = -200
    5/9 = -150
    6/8 = -120

    When playing pass or right way as it's called, you play plus odds, similar to playing dogs on the moneyline in sports betting

    4/10 = +200
    5/9 = +150
    6/8 = +120


    I have trained many newbs on craps. As soon as I put the table in terms of US style sports odds (ie -150) a light goes off in their head and they "get it". So I present it to you here.


    The last thing I have to give to you: You must seek out and hope for a bases loaded situation. This is the holy grail of craps playing. It occurs when a Don't Player has action on all 6 numbers with max odds on the lay. At this point, there is nothing further to do. You've been feeding the Don't Come for a while. Depending on minimum's and limits, you could have over $1000 on the table in a bases loaded situation. This is a good thing, as the dice roller only has to roll a single number and your $1000 is returned to you along with the payouts. Referred to as "hitting a grand slam". This is usually a lesson in self control as pass players just took a pounding and you just won a shit load. Smiling, laughing, peeing, farting, none of that is allowed at this time. It will usually take between 3 to 5 minutes for the box man to count your winnings. There is a craps tradition for all D.C. risk and win chips to be returned in a single stack. Since there is about $1800 in the stack, this is referred to as the Eiffel Tower, or Leaning Tower in some circles.

    GL and may the force be with you
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  13. #13
    Jnas
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotStreak View Post
    Also, that low house edge you are looking for, comes from playing the max odds. Placing the numbers as you are doing gives away more to the house.

    Pass or Dont Pass then place max odds. Come or Dont Come then place max odds. These bets give the least away to the house.
    this is definately the best way to go!

  14. #14
    easywinner
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flight View Post
    Yes

    The proper way to play craps is to lay minimum bet on Don't Pass and then max bet behind it. It is very easy yet out of thousands of players I've observed, maybe 5 actually play this way. Others play Pass with max odds which is also okay but don't pass is better (because of push on 12).


    If a table has $10 min and 10x odds this is the way to play it:


    1) $10 on Don't Pass
    2) number is rolled (say 4)
    2a) Lay (10)(betsize)(the numbers' odds) = (10)(10)(2.0) = $200
    2b) Bet $10 on Don't Come
    3) number is rolled (say 6)
    3a) Lay (10)(betsize)(the numbers' odds) = (10)(10)(1.2) = $120
    3b) Bet $10 on Don't Come
    4) number is rolled (say 9)
    4a) Lay (10)(10)(1.5) = $150
    4b) Bet $10 on Don't Come (D.C. is preferred table term)
    5) 7 out
    5a) Lose $10 D.C. bet
    5b) Win 9 straight and lay 9 = $10 + $10 + $150 + $100 = $270
    5c) Win 6 straight and lay 6 = $10 + $10 + $120 + $100 = $240
    5d) Win 4 straight and lay 4 = $10 + $10 + $200 + $100 = $320

    Total risk for this series = $510
    Total win for this series = $310


    When playing don't's, or lays as they are called, you play negative odds. Similar to playing favorites in sports betting.

    4/10 = -200
    5/9 = -150
    6/8 = -120

    When playing pass or right way as it's called, you play plus odds, similar to playing dogs on the moneyline in sports betting

    4/10 = +200
    5/9 = +150
    6/8 = +120


    I have trained many newbs on craps. As soon as I put the table in terms of US style sports odds (ie -150) a light goes off in their head and they "get it". So I present it to you here.


    The last thing I have to give to you: You must seek out and hope for a bases loaded situation. This is the holy grail of craps playing. It occurs when a Don't Player has action on all 6 numbers with max odds on the lay. At this point, there is nothing further to do. You've been feeding the Don't Come for a while. Depending on minimum's and limits, you could have over $1000 on the table in a bases loaded situation. This is a good thing, as the dice roller only has to roll a single number and your $1000 is returned to you along with the payouts. Referred to as "hitting a grand slam". This is usually a lesson in self control as pass players just took a pounding and you just won a shit load. Smiling, laughing, peeing, farting, none of that is allowed at this time. It will usually take between 3 to 5 minutes for the box man to count your winnings. There is a craps tradition for all D.C. risk and win chips to be returned in a single stack. Since there is about $1800 in the stack, this is referred to as the Eiffel Tower, or Leaning Tower in some circles.

    GL and may the force be with you
    Cool, thanks for answering my question. I think everyone else must have been talking to the OP. Goodluck to ya.

  15. #15
    timmyboy34243
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    mostly a dark side player for the past 5 years. you'll be in the game a lot longer and see many pass line players disappear into the night as they cuss at you under their breath. it's a grind but it's much easier to find a cool table rather than a hot one. one of the few casino games where you can become the "house"..............

  16. #16
    bracerman
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    I've always been told to avoid the don't come if you can't lay 10x odds. Is this accurate?

  17. #17
    Albert Pujols
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    Don't listen to anyone that says you can win. Every bet is -EV. No way to beat craps.
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  18. #18
    thezbar
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    I think there is too much exposure when you buy all the numbers. Is kind of a drag but the system I like is bet one unit don't pass after a shooter has made one pass. If they make another pass I'm bet the don't one unit again. If I lose that bet I'll wait to the next shooter gets the dice. Some people toss dice better than others. Preferably I like to see each person at the table roll at least once before betting. I don't lay odds on the dark side because its more exposure. Bottom line craps is a fun game but I would never bet serious $ on the game.

  19. #19
    Erock87
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    Alot of good advice, Flight provides a great (yet expensive) scenario.

    You definitely need more than $200 to play at a table and hope to make some money/stay a while. I typically go with $500, and play with that.

    A rookie mistake that drives me nuts is people placing on the 4/10. Buy it for $25, and pay the $1 commission IF it hits. Lowers the house edge even more...

    Another great point someone made was to eventually pull down your bets. Pressing your 6/8 and playing with house money is great, but LoA says that 7 is due. Typically I will press my 6/8 1-3 times, depending on how much I initially laid on them, but then I will begin to take them down, dropping them from $60-$78 each to $12ish each.

    Never bet Big 6 or Big 8. Don't be a tard.

    Stay away from the middle of the table - there are no good bets there for you. Only one I would ever play would be the craps bet for $1 just to cover my pass on the come out roll, and even that's rare.

    The final point I will make is the whole key to craps is finding the highest odds. If you're in Vegas, Casino Royale (across from Caesars) offers 100x odds with either a $3 or $5 min depending on time of day, which is the best on the strip that I've seen. Good bet here is to place the min on the pass line, and then either max out, or get as close to maxing out those odds as you can. The odds bet sports "True Odds", which is your best bet in the entire casino.

    Craps is the fastest way to win and lose money, but offers the lowest house edge. The EV may be slightly negative, but every game is. Play it expecting to lose money and have fun. If you come out with something, it's a bonus.
    Last edited by Erock87; 01-09-11 at 09:49 PM.

  20. #20
    VegasAddict
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotStreak View Post
    You also need a bigger bankroll to handle the swings associated with the fast action of the craps table.
    This is the only answer to your question you need. That said, you are catching some cold tables, and that will happen. You have to think "session bankroll" as well as total bankroll.

    Dave

  21. #21
    easywinner
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Pujols View Post
    Don't listen to anyone that says you can win. Every bet is -EV. No way to beat craps.
    There aren't any casino games that aren't -EV except poker and video poker with perfect strategy. An old guy once told me that the only way you can beat the casino longterm is poker and sports betting and even then it's difficult cause you have to know what you are doing and execute perfectly. Or those random people that get away with counting cards in BJ for 6 months and quit or the lucky person that hits the slot jackpot their first day and never goes back. Other than that you can't expect to beat the casino longterm. But if you want to play a traditional table game in a casino craps don't pass with odds offers you the best shot since it offers the lowest house edge of the table games unless you can get away with counting cards in BJ somewhere. Casinos are there to take money not give it away.

  22. #22
    CK
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    Good advice here - I live in LA and go to Vegas around once a month mostly to party, but love the drunk craps at 3am and have played for many years. As many have said, dice is such a high vol game, you need to be able to put up with the numerous "set-the-point-then-7-out-after-one-or-two-rolls" players and make it during the long rolls. You'll be shocked how often the former happens, and honestly, even just betting max odds on your pass line bet can drain your bankroll quickly after 3 or 4 of these bad rolls.

    I generally will only play min pass line and 1/1 odds for a few shooters to get a feel for the table (this is illogical, but psychologically I feel better about it when table starts cold), and wait around for a hot shooter, or until I start rolling (I bet hard on myself usually). Again, the "logical" thing is to bet min pass, max odds, each time, but I think a limited bankroll means you need to supplement normal "maximize your ev" strategy and manage my volatility too. This also means when a hot shooter comes along, you gotta be willing to press it a little.

    Otherwise, what ppl have said is all good here. Placing 6/8 have lowest edge on place bets, generally stay away from bets in the middle, even hard ways (altho I admittedly will throw some on there sometimes for fun). If you're not going to max your pass line odds, only bet the minimum on the pass line - I can't tell you how many nubs I see who bet like $25pass line (with $15min) and then only back their odds 1:1 (this goes without saying for ppl here I'm sure but you could just re-allocate your bet to $15 pass / $35 odds and get more money on a win... )

    At the end of the day, I only play craps for fun (hence drunken craps at 3am), not to make serious money, and so going in with that mindset, I generally stay away from the darkside (prefer to be social), and leave fast when tables get "cold" (I've found it's even harder to "force" a cold dice table than blackjack)

  23. #23
    andywend
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    The first thing I'd do is look at your money management.
    If you ever see the words "money management" in a reply, then its best to ignore the entire post and any advice that might be offered.

    Money management is code for "I don't have a clue".

  24. #24
    Lockitup1x
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    Obviously no way to beat it, you will last longest just betting the passline with full odds.

  25. #25
    chipper
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    Stick to the lowest percentage bets: pass, don't pass, come, don't come, place the 6 & 8, buy the 4/10 ONLY if you can find a place that only takes the vig on a winning bet or play the field ONLY when the 12 pays triple. Stay away from the prop box (everything in the center of the table).

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