[stevenash]

https://www.mlb.com/news/most-consec...=1685797746949

[str]

https://www.mlb.com/news/most-consec...=1685797746949

Hope he makes it.


He deserves it IMO.

[Goat Milk]

Most overrated player in baseball history. All the baseball "gurus" just look at stats. The guy is not a leader, never goes to the postseason, even when he does he does nothing.

Some ppl say him and Otanhi are the best two players in all of baseball. Has there ever been a team, in any sport, in the world, where the two best players in the entire sport were on one team, and never even sniffed the postseason?

It's hilarious.

Kobe and Shaq won 3 straight.
Lebron and Wade, who were arguably the best two players in the world when they joined up, went to 4 straight finals.
Brady and Moss went to a superbowl.
Grezsky and Messier won titles together.
Trout and Ohtani? Laughable.

[JAKEPEAVY21]

Getting voted in is nothing more than a popularity contest.

[unusialsusp5]

Most overrated player in baseball history. All the baseball "gurus" just look at stats. The guy is not a leader, never goes to the postseason, even when he does he does nothing.

Some ppl say him and Otanhi are the best two players in all of baseball. Has there ever been a team, in any sport, in the world, where the two best players in the entire sport were on one team, and never even sniffed the postseason?

It's hilarious.

Kobe and Shaq won 3 straight.
Lebron and Wade, who were arguably the best two players in the world when they joined up, went to 4 straight finals.
Brady and Moss went to a superbowl.
Grezsky and Messier won titles together.
Trout and Ohtani? Laughable.

It's that ridiculous WAR stat that they love about Trout. Does hit HR's to all fields. Does walk a lot. Does score runs. Does strike out a lot. Doesn't hit doubles. Average solid .300 but no spectacular years. Used to steal bases but no longer. Does not drive in runs. 40 HR 80 RBi last year and has had many similar years. Never wins.

[Goat Milk]

It's that ridiculous WAR stat that they love about Trout. Does hit HR's to all fields. Does walk a lot. Does score runs. Does strike out a lot. Doesn't hit doubles. Average solid .300 but no spectacular years. Used to steal bases but no longer. Does not drive in runs. 40 HR 80 RBi last year and has had many similar years. Never wins.

Exactly. I know nothing about baseball but if the guy is so good, why hasn't he ever got close to a WS ring? And now playing with supposedly the best player in baseball? No. Legendary status doesn't work like that. When you're a great player, you have to elevate the players around you. It doesn't matter if there's no passing in baseball. You have to find a way, as the best player, to get the most out of your team. Trout is just a quiet guy who doesn't know how to lead. And that's part of talent, leadership. Something these baseball nerds don't know how to measure with their precious numbers.

[stevenash]

. I know nothing about baseball but if the guy is so good, why hasn't he ever got close to a WS ring?

Trout isn't what's wrong with the Angels, shitty pitching and owner Arte Moreno is at the root of everything bad about Anaheim, In baseball 80 percent of a teams success is pitching. Those who are a student of the game know this.

. The guy is not a leader, never goes to the postseason, even when he does he does nothing.

Even though I totally disagree 100 percent with your opinions on so many levels, I'm not going to jump ugly on you.
You're a good sports fan, more importantly I believe you have a good heart.

Every man is entitled to am opinion, and within reason deserves their opinion.
The best part about sports is the difference of opinions..
My daddy used to tell me about the barroom fist fights over the argument about who was the better center fielder playing in New York at the same times.

NY Giants and Willie Mays, Yankees and Mickey Mantle, Brooklyn Dodgers and Duke Snyder.
There was, and still is a deep hatred between Brooklyn and NY Yankees, and that carried over after Brooklyn split for LA.
Three epic MLB franchises, all playing in New York City, all three teams featured not just generational great center fielders, but all time great Hall of Fame center fielders.

My two cents, there was no difference between Mays and Mantle, there was nothing the other couldn't do, speed, before Mantle blew out his knee was the fastest man in baseball, which was a fact, defense, they both played the outfield flawlessly day in ,day out.

Power?
Both had legendary power.

Mantle was 1
Mays was 1A

or
Mays was 1
Mantle was 1A

Most overrated player in baseball history. All the baseball "gurus" just look at stats. The guy is not a leader, never goes to the postseason, even when he does he does nothing.

Since the age of eight, until my Junior Year in college I played the game.
14 years I caught, later in HS and college I did some DH'ing, to save wear and tear on the knees.
Then in my mid 20's I umpired scholastic games for a few years, I worked in the production truck for a local sports cable network as a statistician, I was responsible for feeding the in game numbers to the analyst, that worked along side the play by play announcer.

These days i have a blog hosted by WordPress regarding all things baseball, and I cover a lot of fantasy sports related information.

i'm not a baseball guru, I'm a baseball junkie, what I am in reality is a baseball historian, to play NCAA ball, I was not big time, I don't want you to think I was Thurmond Munson, I don't have the size to paly D1, I played ball for a tiny D2 school, point is, a catcher needs to study pitchefs, both pitching and hitting tendencies, if you don't have the passion for the game, the ignorance to get hit in the nut sack with a Louisville slugger, to get mowed down by collisions, like I said, I'm a historian, coaches can teach you well, but you still need to go out there and do it, and pay attention to the little things, "watch and learn" is more than a played out cliche.

Which brings me to the point (s) I'm going to make, I always get there, for reasons unknown I enjoy taking the long winded route.

It is of your opinion that Mike Trout is the most overrated player in baseball history.
The definition of the word 'overrated' is to value to highly.
Riddle me this, how can a player, any player, be the most over valued player in all of history, when said player in his first nine years was voted by members of the media watch Trout play, every day of every week of every month for six consecutive months.
These are Trout's peers saying this, professionals who rate players for a living, if this elite group of MLB media members voted Trout the most valuable player in all of MLB, or the most valuable runner up in his first five years, as a professional, and voted Trout as the top five most valuable in each of his first nine seasons.

With all due respect Goater, I am having a very difficult time here trying to wrap my head around how you can possibly call a most valuable player or runner up to he most valuable player seven times in his first nine seasons.

Seriously, how can the most valuable voted player in the history of MLB be he least valuable player in the history of baseball?
I don't mean disrespect Goatter, but either you're correct, and the entire BBWAOA is wrong or you're wrong and the writers are correct.
I reiterate, I don't mean disrespect, but my money is on the writers opinion being the most accurate.

[Goat Milk]

"members of the media watch Trout play, every day of every week of every month for six consecutive months." -- members of the media? Those guys are all analytics nerds bro. They awarded Kobe Bryant 1 MVP in 20 years. The guy was the best basketball player on the planet for 12 consecutive years. That was voted on by the actual players who play the game, not some guy behind a desk that can't hit a jumper. And why didn't he get more MVPs? Because he was considered selfish, he was not a likeable guy during many years of his career, he was considered a villain. But if you ask any player that era who they would rather go against, kobe bryant or tim duncan, not one person would say Kobe Bryant. Not one.

What does that say about media votes? It means they are worthless.

You didn't really address my points. The two best players in the game, and no playoff wins.

You also didn't make any mention of leadership. Why? Because you can't quanitfy that like you do on your blog. You can't quantify how guys like Brady pick up the phone and call Antonio Brown and Gronk and tell them to come to Tampa, versus a Rodgers who can't recruit anyone for the life of him. It's the small things that win championships and make those around you play higher than their potential.

Sure, Trout can show up to work every day and put up his insane numbers. And he can go about his business like the quiet guy that he is. But that's not what makes legends. Your post was about legends. If you don't advance deep in the postseason, you're not a legend bro, simple as that, in any sport. If Trout were to be a louder voice, get on the phone, call pitchers, call batters, tell them to come to LA with him, he'd have a ring by now. But he doesn't know how to do that because he hasn't evolved as a player. As an athlete. He's the same today as he was 10 yrs ago.

Brady evolved. Kobe evolved. Kobe had to learn to trust his teammates, something he was never good at. He had to learn to lead without cussing guys out. He did that. He had to learn how to turn a soft ass pau gasol into a winner. He did that, through his jedi mind tricks. To compare a guy like Trout to true legends like Kobe or Brady, who do so many things outside the court in order to get perfection on the court from their teams, is a disrespect to the word in your title.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Milk, no offense...but you invalidated yourself on this argument:

1) Yes, WAR is a well-researched baseball stat. It it viewed as a fair measure of comparison.

2) Baseball (more than other sports) is 90% a H2H matchup batter vs pitcher. Baseball lends itself to statistical review much more than boxscore stats in other sports.

3) Trout holds a .413 career On-Base%. OBA is hugely correlated to run-production, so Trout is on the short list of great hitters in the Last 40 years.

4) In baseball, you really don't have much control over skill-level of your teammates. Angels haven't had great teams, can't blame Trout for that.

5) Admittedly, doesn't look like he's having a banner year. Maybe reputation is carrying him this year.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...routmi01.shtml

[TommieGunshot]

Some ppl say him and Otanhi are the best two players in all of baseball. Has there ever been a team, in any sport, in the world, where the two best players in the entire sport were on one team, and never even sniffed the postseason?

This is there sixth year together as teammates. First threee years Ohtani was not one of the best players in baseball. Past two years Trout was injured kept him from being among the very best. Now this year, with Trout over 30 it looks like he is now longer among the top two players in baseball. Trout had a nine year run where he was truly the best player in baseball. Ohtani looks to be doing the same. But the years where they were both the best do not overlap.

McCovey was clearly the best hitter in baseball from 68 to 70. By that time Mays was no longer one of the best players, despite being the very best player in the 10+ years before that. So there definitely is a very similar comparison.

[TommieGunshot]

If Trout were to be a louder voice, get on the phone, call pitchers, call batters, tell them to come to LA with him, he'd have a ring by now.

If these players will not do their job to their full capabilities simply because a teammate doesn't call them, that is entirely on them. This is very strong strong evidence that Mike Trout has not won because of the failures of his teammates, not him.

[JAKEPEAVY21]

Milk, no offense...but you invalidated yourself on this argument:

1) Yes, WAR is a well-researched baseball stat. It it viewed as a fair measure of comparison.

2) Baseball (more than other sports) is 90% a H2H matchup batter vs pitcher. Baseball lends itself to statistical review much more than boxscore stats in other sports.

3) Trout holds a .413 career On-Base%. OBA is hugely correlated to run-production, so Trout is on the short list of great hitters in the Last 40 years.

4) In baseball, you really don't have much control over skill-level of your teammates. Angels haven't had great teams, can't blame Trout for that.

5) Admittedly, doesn't look like he's having a banner year. Maybe reputation is carrying him this year.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...routmi01.shtml

That is why getting voted in by fans doesn't hold much water. It is either a popularity contest, reputation based or players from teams with high attendance(fans blindly voting in their team's players).

In summary, this "legendary list" is very flawed.

[Otters27]

Trout had some amazing catches last night. Made them look easy

[stevenash]

"members of the media watch Trout play, every day of every week of every month for six consecutive months." -- members of the media? Those guys are all analytics nerds bro. \

I'll address your points one by one.

Starting with this one.

I played baseball, organized team baseball, starting at age eight and ending at age 21.
I played at every organized level of ball, from Little League, to Pony League (also known as Babe Ruth League) traveling leagues, Varsity HS ball in NJ, and on the NCAA D2 level.

I've played the game on at every level for twelve years.
I'm also a student of the game, I read the baseball historians too, I have coached some Little League, and for two years I umpired HS ball.
There is no aspect of the game I haven't played, studied, umpired, coached, and written about.

I'm also an IT Operations Analyst in real life and a big time subscriber in Bill James and Billy Beane's money ball analytics theories.

So what am I?
A baseball jock, or an analytics nerd?
I can provide you with the correct answer to that question, but I'd rather you answer that first for me.

You don't have to like my opinions, and quite frankly I'd rather be disliked for who i am than like me for who I am not.

First off, a MLB centerfielder can not elevate a teammates playing level the same way an NBA PG can elevate his courtmate.
Why?

Because the PG needs to, besides scoring is to be the play maker too, he needs to distribute the ball as well.
How exactly does a baseball center fielder get involved during the course of a game like a point guard does in the NBA?

To claim Trout doesn't elevate his teammates level of play is both invalid and ludicrous.

To claim Trout isn't a leader is also both invalid and ludicrous.
How many Mike Trout's Angel games have you watched and paid attention in the first decade of his career?
I have though my content provider the MLB package, every out of market game to every team for every game I get right here in my entertainment media roo,

A fair estimate would be I have seen on the average 14 Angels game a season, I have watch Trout play at least 140 times across ten years.
He used to crash outfield walls not only tracking fly balls down, but making the catch as well.
And he made such plays about twice a month, every month too.

You know what us jocks call that, a player that makes a catch without fear of the consequences of broken limbs?
We call that leading by example.

Get out of my face with your Trout is an overacted ball player that isn't a leader.

I don't want everybody to agree with my opinions all the time, the same way I don't everybody to like me all the time.
You don't have to agree with my baseball opinions or even like them, but I'm more than qualitied to say you should at least respect them.

I'll revisit this thread later, I need to attend to real life issues too.
Sports chit chat is fun, I love it and all, but affairs that pay the bills and put good food on the table supersedes chit chat.

Not for nothing, and it shouldn't matter anyway, all this is nothing but spirited sports talk, don't take me personally, it is what is, two rather intelligent sports fans having differences of opinions, and that's not a bad thing.

[Goat Milk]

I respect your bases knowledge Nash. You know 1000x more than I'll ever know. But I know people and I know the intangibles that never show up on the stat sheet that help teams win. It won't show up in the WAR or the OBP or any of that. Those small things that Pujols and Molina did to build a championship culture. The vocalization. The reason the heat are in the finals now. Bums like Struss and Vincent playing way above their level because of how vocal Butler is in the huddle. And yeah it's not the exact same because you share the court with your 4 other nba teammates. But when is the last time Trout called a players only meeting? When? When is the last time he got on the phone and said "Verlander, come to the Angels, we need you, I need you, and we can win a championship here together." What's the comeback there? That's the job of the GM? Well when you're getting paid 300 million dollars, that's your job too. Is to elevate the franchise. I ding Damien LIllard for the same thing. The guy is a top 2 pg of this generation, but he hasn't won a ring because he fails in recruiting, he fails in leadership, his need for loyalty in his weakness -- all that stuff cannot be put in an excel file. And this is one of my favorite players ever and I'm not afraid to say this.

Anyway that's how I look at it and how I will always look at sports. Outside of the stats and metrics there are always things you cannot measure about a person. Metrics will never be able to see inside the soul and head of a player. Metrics cannot measure Kobe's mamba mentality. Again, Kobe was not only the best offensive player in the world for 12 straight years, he was the best defensive player in the world for 12 straight years. He could shut down any player 1 on 1, they couldn't even cross the 3 pt line again him. But 1 MVP? That's why I don't care what a lot of these sports writers/analysts say or look at with their little metrics. How a guy who wins mvp 1 time can win 5 championships is absurd. And yet, all the while the league was giving mvps to lebron james because of his statistical greatness. But those stats didn't mean anything when he was going to the playoffs year after year, for 10 years, and getting his ass kicked.

[Goat Milk]

Milk, no offense...but you invalidated yourself on this argument:

1) Yes, WAR is a well-researched baseball stat. It it viewed as a fair measure of comparison.

2) Baseball (more than other sports) is 90% a H2H matchup batter vs pitcher. Baseball lends itself to statistical review much more than boxscore stats in other sports.

3) Trout holds a .413 career On-Base%. OBA is hugely correlated to run-production, so Trout is on the short list of great hitters in the Last 40 years.

4) In baseball, you really don't have much control over skill-level of your teammates. Angels haven't had great teams, can't blame Trout for that.

5) Admittedly, doesn't look like he's having a banner year. Maybe reputation is carrying him this year.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...routmi01.shtml

I don't disagree with any of that. And no one is arguing Trout isn't a great player. He is. But he's just not a legendary athlete in my book without any meaningful postseason run.

You have control of skill of your teammates in every single sport. Sometimes you can teach skill by doing small things. Kobe's lakers teams after shaq were not tough at all, they were not physical. So Kobe used to push guys around, literally, in practice. He used to play mind games with them. Call them out. Tell them they were going to get cut. He would hang his gold medal in Pau Gasol's locker to infuriate him. Those things cannot be measured by stats. That's a matter of teaching, of being a philosopher, of being a great mind as well as a great athlete. This is what makes the legends. You're telling me Trout doesn't have the opportunity to do that?

Answer me this. If you were a baseball player on Trout's team, and you were really struggling to tap into your potential, and Trout decided to take you out to dinner every tuesday and grill you, give you tough love, show you how its done, how you have to think, what you have to do, you don't think you would elevate your play?

[ChuckyTheGoat]

That is why getting voted in by fans doesn't hold much water. It is either a popularity contest, reputation based or players from teams with high attendance(fans blindly voting in their team's players).

In summary, this "legendary list" is very flawed.

True, Jake. One that sticks out = Garvey being a 10x All Star.

Popular player, the women liked him. Free swinger, wasn't a GREAT player. Versus his contemporaries, Keith Hernandez was CLEARLY the more accomplished player...but Keith was only a 5x All Star.

[USCPHILLYGUY]

Trout building a golf course about 20 minutes from my home. Trout National The Reserve designed by Tiger Woods. Opening in 2025

[JAKEPEAVY21]

True, Jake. One that sticks out = Garvey being a 10x All Star.

Popular player, the women liked him. Free swinger, wasn't a GREAT player. Versus his contemporaries, Keith Hernandez was CLEARLY the more accomplished player...but Keith was only a 5x All Star.

Chucky, I'm going to have to delve into both of their career stats.

I never viewed Hernandez as leaps and bounds better than garvey but you've forced me to do a bit of research now.

[JAKEPEAVY21]

Hernandez finished with a career 60.3 WAR and Garvey 38.0.

After review, it looks like they had very similar careers in most statistical categories.

The big difference that i see is Hernandez had a big gold glove edge(11 to 4) and his career OBP(.384 to .329).

Garvey did have more home run pop(272 homers to 162 for Keith) but other than the categories mentioned, their careers were quite similar.

It does seem like Hernandez was snubbed from numerous All star games, might have had something to do with his drug use?