[5 star bomb]

rjt721: Nathan better than Mo
rjt721: joe nathan's a better closer than mariano rivera. fact.

[ryanXL977]

rjt721: Nathan better than Mo
rjt721: joe nathan's a better closer than mariano rivera. fact.

he is right
and its not even close

[sallysnax8]

mariano in his prime hell no......mariano now yes nathan is def. better

[SlickFazzer]

rivera slipping last couple years. stats from last 3 years
are very comparable.

[5 star bomb]

rjt pass me whatever u are smoking pal

[5 star bomb]

Last 3 years Team G GS W L SV BS HLD CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB K ERA WHIP BAA 2006 NYY 63 0 5 5 34 3 0 0 0 75.0 61 16 15 3 11 55 1.80 0.96 .223 2007 NYY 67 0 3 4 30 4 0 0 0 71.1 68 25 25 4 12 74 3.15 1.12 .248 2008 NYY 64 0 6 5 39 1 0 0 0 70.2 41 11 11 4 6 77 1.40 0.67 .165

Last 3 years Team G GS W L SV BS HLD CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB K ERA WHIP BAA 2006 MIN 64 0 7 0 36 2 0 0 0 68.1 38 12 12 3 16 95 1.58 0.79 .158 2007 MIN 68 0 4 2 37 4 0 0 0 71.2 54 15 15 4 19 77 1.88 1.02 .209 2008 MIN 68 0 1 2 39 6 0 0 0 67.2 43 13 10 5 18 74 1.33 0.90 .179

intersting... hwfhkvbfieygfwhbvkhbwfdhweuhwfbhdbcdugvv beugvcchdhgwehfwhhbhiwebifvhiwefvifvf?

[SlickFazzer]

intersting... hwfhkvbfieygfwhbvkhbwfdhweuhwfbhdbcdugvv beugvcchdhgwehfwhhbhiwebifvhiwefvifvf?

fukkin thing wouldnt display right, trying to compare stats from
last 3 years.

[5 star bomb]

haha yea i figured that... who do u think is better slick?

[MonkeyF0cker]

God. And you consider yourself a good handicapper? It's no contest right now.

Rivera is nowhere near what he once was.

[Fischnasty]

mods, please move this bickering to the YGG zone

[rjt721]

What a silly thread. Guess all things said in SBR Chat are now to be taken seriously. And I believe I prefaced the above statement by comparing the two right now, not for their careers, where Rivera's clearly the choice not only over Nathan, but every other closer in the history of baseball. Pretty convenient to leave that aspect out of your post. The "fact" comment was merely used to get a reaction out of the SBR Chat audience. Looks like I succeeded.

rjt pass me whatever u are smoking pal

$300 weed. Pineapple Express. Got it from Patsfan.

[Timely Hitting]

God. And you consider yourself a good handicapper? It's no contest right now.

Rivera is nowhere near what he once was.

Second lowest ERA of his career last year and he's no where near where he once was?

1.4 ERA last year and didn't give up a run in a save situation until late June.

[rjt721]

mariano in his prime hell no......mariano now yes nathan is def. better

Pretty much what I said. Funny to have my words twisted by 5 star stiff. God forbid someone points out a pitcher that's superior to the great Mariano Rivera.

[5 star bomb]

Timely ERA is overrated stat but I agree you cant ignore just how good MO was last year


MO > Nathan

[Timely Hitting]

How is ERA an overrated statistic for a closer? They start nearly every inning they come in, so the inherited runners they give up is practically non-existent. What is possibly overrated about the ERA stat?

[5 star bomb]

RJT stop crying... you are wrong. NOT 1 GM outside of Twins orginization in MLB would take Nathan over MO for a save

[Timely Hitting]

For a single save? No, but if I was picking a closer right now I'd pick Nathan. He has a lot of good years left in him.

[5 star bomb]

Nathan over Pap?

[rjt721]

Timely ERA is overrated stat but I agree you cant ignore just how good MO was last year

Why? Because I told you that 10 min ago?

Your main argument as to why Rivera's superior was his ERA (of course you're oblivious to the fact Nathan's ERA was lower last season).

But yes, ERA's basically a meaningless stat.

[Jshap1515]

I think Mo is better for a fantasy value in the fact that the Yankees will give him more save opps then the Twins

[5 star bomb]

this isnt fantasy baseball Jshap.... Hey RJT, World Series is on the line who do you want MO or Nathan?

[Timely Hitting]

Why? Because I told you that 10 min ago?

Your main argument as to why Rivera's superior was his ERA (of course you're oblivious to the fact Nathan's ERA was lower last season).

But yes, ERA's basically a meaningless stat.

ERA is not meaningless at all. Look at the guys with the lowest ERA's, of the modern era, and tell me they weren't the best pitchers. WHIP is a good stat, but some pitchers get out of a lot of jams, despite having higher whips.

What stat would you look at when evaluating a pitcher over a 10 year period?

[5 star bomb]

ERA is NOT meaningless but it IS overrated

[rjt721]

this isnt fantasy baseball Jshap.... Hey RJT, World Series is on the line who do you want MO or Nathan?

I'd want the better pitcher. Rivera's past success in October is irrelevant.

[rjt721]

ERA is not meaningless at all. Look at the guys with the lowest ERA's, of the modern era, and tell me they weren't the best pitchers. WHIP is a good stat, but some pitchers get out of a lot of jams, despite having higher whips.

What stat would you look at when evaluating a pitcher over a 10 year period?

dERA
ERC

[5 star bomb]

rjt why u have to google that? You already knew those didnt you?

[Jshap1515]

ERA is NOT meaningless but it IS overrated

Absolutely not. ERA is incredibly important. It might be a little overrated for a reliever but ERA as a whole, underrated.

[MonkeyF0cker]

Second lowest ERA of his career last year and he's no where near where he once was?

1.4 ERA last year and didn't give up a run in a save situation until late June.

Yeah. Take away the months of April and May and he had a bad season. Not quite as bad as his 2007 season, granted, but certainly not that impressive down the stretch of the season.

[rjt721]

rjt why u have to google that? You already knew those didnt you?

What?

[Timely Hitting]

dERA
ERC

Baseball is a game played by Humans. When signing a player I want to know how a player reacts with good defenses, or bad. Baseball can not be simplified to numbers (as Sabermetrics suggests), because the human element is what makes and breaks some players.

ERA has been a solid indicator of greatness for 100 years.... Wins, on the other hand, are very overrated and pointless statistic.

Once again though, in all likelihood, wins, just like ERA, will usually reflect on how successful you were throughout your career.

[MonkeyF0cker]

rjt why u have to google that? You already knew those didnt you?

Uhh. Those are pretty standard sabremetrics.

[Timely Hitting]

http://www.whatifsports.com/mlb-l/pr...r.asp?pid=1778

This is a prime example of why ERC can work for some, but not all players. Every season, nearly, it has Buehrle's ERC higher than his ERA because he has a history of pitching out of jams. Guys that pitch towards contact, but are still successful, don't fair very well with dERA and ERC.

[MonkeyF0cker]

Baseball is a game played by Humans. When signing a player I want to know how a player reacts with good defenses, or bad. Baseball can not be simplified to numbers (as Sabermetrics suggests), because the human element is what makes and breaks some players.

ERA has been a solid indicator of greatness for 100 years.... Wins, on the other hand, are very overrated and pointless statistic.

Once again though, in all likelihood, wins, just like ERA, will usually reflect on how successful you were throughout your career.

I don't even know where to begin on such a ridiculous statement...

Baseball is ALL numbers. End of story. In fact, there is a great deal of math to support the idea that clutch hitting and pitching are simply random. Your concept of the "human element" is completely flawed.

[Timely Hitting]

I don't even know where to begin on such a ridiculous statement...

Baseball is ALL numbers. End of story. In fact, there is a great deal of math to support the idea that clutch hitting and pitching are simply random. Your concept of the "human element" is completely flawed.

Actually people at baseball prospectus think that clutch hitting is overrated, but they agree it exists.

I've watched the game, and played it, with my own eyes for 20 years. To say that it's all numbers is retarded. Some guys come up in big spots and come through more than others. They have a history of doing it. There's a reason that wherever guys like Manny go, the teams get better, and wherever certain other players go (with similar numbers), the teams get worse.

To simplify a game to just numbers, is retarded. If it was JUST numbers then handicapping would be the easiest thing in the world.

[MonkeyF0cker]

The point is that Manny isn't a clutch hitter. He's just a great hitter so he will be "clutch" more often than many others. Please give me one example of a player with similar numbers to Manny that had a negative impact on the performance of their team upon their arrival. Just one. You have no idea what you're talking about. It's not just having the numbers, it's knowing how to use them.