[hehfest]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[ChuckyTheGoat]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

Looks like you went to Game 4. But not the Game 5 clincher.

If you like this stuff, try to attend one of the big shows like The National. I've gone 2x, it's fun. You get to see some unique items.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

The grading shit is out of control.

I’m not a fan - at least on “modern” cards. The fact you can buy a pack - pull a card and have it deemed a 6 or 7 consistently is ridiculous.

On the “vintage” stuff - I get it - but I remember when this started in cards and what it did to the coin market. Exactly as it killed coin collecting with people tiring of the BS - it hurt card collecting. Yes - when your dealing with a quarter of a million dollar ‘52 Mantle you need more than 4 or 5 grades of mint, nm, ex, by and fair - but when your talking a 1989 NBA Hoops Jordan - who cares if it’s a 9 or a 10 - it’s a $5-10 card.

And then there’s the grading companies - if it’s not PSA - it’s worthless to most people. But PSA is so damn stupid - many complaints of only “power buyers” gaining 10s - and some certainly questionable grades out there. Would be nice for what they charge if they would explain WHY they graded a card a certain way.

Now it’s the damn chase cards too - I remember when they started these in the early 90s - again - said it would kill the industry as they turned packs into lottery tickets. What was it - 1990 or 91 when upper deck did the Ted Williams autos and Score did Mantle then DiMaggio. Something like 500-1000 across a million cases - yea..great odds there. Then in 1991 Topps did the 40th anniversary 1 of everything hidden in their packs - 1 of every card they ever made was randomly packed - and people went nuts. Worked out to be like 1 vintage card per case roughly. Imagine opening packs to randomly “win” a “vintage 1986 Topps common in 1991 - like seriously - who thought this was a good idea. Again - figure how many cards over 40 years - say 600 per year (792 was the standard for at least a decade - but prior there were less). That 24,000 cases - and I guarantee Topps made more than that…so clearly there had to be more than 1 of everything in the promo to keep up with the 1 per case ratio that suckered people in. Guarantee they used cheap commons to keep that promo going.

I had a bad experience with a tier-two grader called CSG (not SGC). If PSA is #1, I'd argue that Beckett and SGC would be #2/#3 (in some order). Beckett/SGC have some re-sale but my CSG has incredibly bad re-sale value. CSG is big into comic-books...and I (mistakenly) thought they could transition to cards.

My line of demarcation is 1989 vs 1990. I consider the 1989 sets to be legit. There was a lot of buzz in 1989 because of the Griffey Jr rookies. The card companies decided to turn on the printing-press in 1990. Talk about over-production.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Now, Stockton is all-time assists leader and steals leader. I did notice after buying these packs riding my bike 4 miles a day to the party store.....with paper route money - that I got more Stockton RC's than Pippen or Rodman or others. Perhaps, this is why he is of less value? SHOW AND TELL!

[IMG][/IMG]

I don't recall Stockton being Double-Printed, but it's possible. Some cards do show up on TWO SHEETS and therefore get a DP note on the Beckett registry.

I do have some Stockton rookies. You referenced the Steals and Assists. I think he's under-rated.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

My favorite card as a kid even though I hated Jordan because of the Bad Boys..or end of them that is. LOL. This is the All-Star card of that same year along with regular. Bad-ass picture imo!

[IMG][/IMG]

That's a great picture. Jordan has some nice ones.

IMHO, the best Jordan cards show off his aerial ability.

[hehfest]

^ That's a special card there. WOW! Nice Chuck!

[hehfest]

I don't recall Stockton being Double-Printed, but it's possible. Some cards do show up on TWO SHEETS and therefore get a DP note on the Beckett registry.

I do have some Stockton rookies. You referenced the Steals and Assists. I think he's under-rated.

Probably because he was seen as the 2nd best player on his team all those years where Jordan #1, etc. I really don't know but I agree he's underrated. Not sure when or if his records get broken either.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

^ That's a special card there. WOW! Nice Chuck!

Thx. Not mine btw. Jordan rook is one of the few I don't own.

[hehfest]

Thx. Not mine btw. Jordan rook is one of the few I don't own.

Sound like you have a major collection?

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Sound like you have a major collection?

I have a good collection. Starting with 1969 Basketball thru 1989 Sports.

I have most of the Base/Bask/Foot sets from that period. Not much that I'm missing.

Also have a good collection of 1980s hockey. Very much ties to the first ten years of Gretzky's career.

[djefferis]

I had a bad experience with a tier-two grader called CSG (not SGC). If PSA is #1, I'd argue that Beckett and SGC would be #2/#3 (in some order). Beckett/SGC have some re-sale but my CSG has incredibly bad re-sale value. CSG is big into comic-books...and I (mistakenly) thought they could transition to cards.

My line of demarcation is 1989 vs 1990. I consider the 1989 sets to be legit. There was a lot of buzz in 1989 because of the Griffey Jr rookies. The card companies decided to turn on the printing-press in 1990. Talk about over-production.

I hear you - and agree on Beckett and SGC being 2 and 3. If I had something rare/valuable though - I’d only mess with #1. More common 80/90s stuff - I’d probably go Beckett - despite that fact I still think Dr Beckett is responsible for alot of the problems the industry faced in the 2000s. I mean - the man obviously didn’t create them all in his own - greed did. But kinda like Jim Cramer would show up on peoples TVs every night at 6p touting some great stock that had potential to make us all rich - Beckett did it with cards. He built an empire based on nothing more than selling people a price guide that showed up arrows on everything every month. People were dumb enough to keep buying because he told them demand was there - until it wasn’t.

The line of “overproduction” is difficult to say - I mean 1987 Topps for example seemed to be “everywhere” for a long time…1988 Topps and Score wax probably sells for what they did in 1988 these days. Combination of overproduction and lack of “desirable” cards. Like I said - I still pick up ‘87 and ‘89 Fleer wax when the price is right - overproduced at the time - but demand is still there and having star rookies and errors in the ‘89 Fleer wax helps.

I’ve got one card I really want to find to send in for grading - an ‘87-88 Jordan. This one should be a 9 or 10…I’ve held it all these years as it was both the nicest centering I’ve ever seen on one and knowing they are just scarcer than any other Fleer set. Fleer thought basketball would be big in ‘86 - and made a sizable (by ‘86 standards) run…they were about 5 years too early as it turned out. In ‘87 they cut WAY back - and then started again in ‘88 as demand bounced back.

‘86 is another “under-produced” year for baseball - but with the “big” rookie being Canseco (and McGriff in Donruss) - kinda unappreciated. Baseball was hot in 84-85 - but wasn’t the lockout the ‘85 season ? Cut enthusiasm and places slowed production. 1990 Leaf is another gem in the overproduction era - 2 series and the iconic Frank Thomas rookie. I’ve owned literally hundreds of ‘89 Upper Deck Griffey’s (many compliments of a local idiot who managed to swindle people in the early days of the internet - offering to both buy at $100 cash and sell at $25 - he thought he’d get maybe 5 or 10 idiots sending - pay a couple and send a couple until the scheme gave him 20 or 30 and he’d disappear…showed up to me about a week after starting the scheme with a box of 180 - bought them for $20 each and then when the authorities showed up turned over the 40 o had bought in exhange for my $800 back) - but never had a Thomas. It’s like a 1990 Score Emmitt Smith - just scarce in the day and always wanted one.

[Snowball]

I have a good collection. Starting with 1969 Basketball thru 1989 Sports.

I have most of the Base/Bask/Foot sets from that period. Not much that I'm missing.

Also have a good collection of 1980s hockey. Very much ties to the first ten years of Gretzky's career.

Yeah, I have his second year card, 1980 which I got out of the pack
.. and to think I couldn't afford to buy the rookie when it was like 10 dollars.
What you gonna do at 12 years old ? it is what it was. by then I was already spending a lot more on comic books.
the thing is I was not a rich kid at all so I often only had 5-15 dollars to spend when I went to the shops.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Djeff, that's good stuff. I have a good collection of 1986 Fleer Bask and 1987 Fleer Bask.

*For this discussion, we'll call 1986-87 = 1986 and 1987-88 = 1987.

I have every 1986 Fleer bask card except the Jordan. I just never felt like the price was justified. How can JORDAN be worth 20x Olajuwon?

I have the 1987 Fleer bask set at least 2x over. Love your comment about the centering. I actually view the 1987 bask as a better collector's item.

It has to do with the two factors you mentioned:
1) The 1987 Fleer centering is impossible. It's all over the place. I opened a few fresh packs. You have < a 10% chance of finding a centered 1987 card.
2) I read the exact article that you referenced about the 1987 supply. This goes back to a saying from the late-80s. Normally, it was viewed as BASEBALL card collecting because of all the tradition and big-name players. I loved basketball and I'd ask people why there wasn't more interest. The response I got was "Nobody cares about basketball."

You're right, 1986 Fleer was produced in some volume. Remember there was a 5-year gap back to the 1981 Topps set, so more than half of the 1986 set = ROOKIES.

Guys like Isiah Thomas had been in the league a few years. But 1986 was his rookie CARD.

Fleer expected more interest in the 1986 set but it wasn't there. I heard stories of boxes sitting in their warehouse and they couldn't sell it. Yes, I heard that management cut back on the 1987 production.

When I'm scouting out cards, I give a long look to any 1987 Fleer Bask card that is well-centered. There can't be too many of those around.

If you decide you absolutely want that 1987F Jordan graded, let me know. I had a good experience with Beckett. I'll use them for a bulk order of 10+ cards in the near future. If you want me to include your Jordan, I'd do it. I'm reputable, just let me know.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Yeah, I have his second year card, 1980 which I got out of the pack
.. and to think I couldn't afford to buy the rookie when it was like 10 dollars.
What you gonna do at 12 years old ? it is what it was. by then I was already spending a lot more on comic books.
the thing is I was not a rich kid at all so I often only had 5-15 dollars to spend when I went to the shops.

I sold a Gretzky rook for $35 back when that represented a large % of my Net Worth. You just never know.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

On your Beckett comment, I hear you. Back then, the Beckett publication held such weight.

Beckett was viewed so highly that vendors were reluctant to list prices ABOVE Beckett. In other words, you almost had to wait for Beckett to sign off on it b4 you could raise your price (after that month's new Beckett was released).

I'd say that prices are a function of Ebay sales now. There's enough price information out there. Within a small margin, I don't think there are too many surprise prices.

[djefferis]

I can confirm to an extent the stories of 86 Fleer basketball sitting in warehouses - at least ok the distribution side of things.

So in early 90s - had some connections with a large vendor to Convenience type stores - made the connection on a tobacco deal - but when my connection found out I knew about baseball cards - he came to me with a deal - he had the ability to acquire a large amount of product via the candy side of their business. Regularly would have baseball stuff that was in short supply - and made a further connection for me with the guys who delivered product from the manufacturers - who weren’t above being paid off for a couple of boxes that “fell off the truck”.

Anyway - he comes to me one day and says do you know anything about basketball cards - this is just as they were starting up. I said a little - so he says we have 5 or 6 boxes (meaning cases) of ones from a few years ago that just never sell - boss said let them go for whatever I can get for them to get rid of the SKU. Needless to say I said I’ll take it all. SOB realized then that he had to have something - if I was offering to take it all and offering a little extra to him. Runs out and finds a local card shop and sells them all for something like 5 grand (figure 120 boxes at 13 dollars wholesale - sold for 50 cents a pack so 18 retail). Pissed me off at the time as a. I could have sold for 8-10k easily (at the time) and b. I knew the dealer who sold to and guy was an absolute prick of a human being (otherwise I’d had shown up with 6k the next day and bought it all.

Again - at the time it pissed me off - but I was making way more dealing tobacco and running coupons than I ever could have hoped to make selling baseball cards - even in the heyday. Just one of those “I should have kept BTC stories” I guess.

And yes - the whole thing of a Jordan now costing more than a new car is stupid. I mean that is THE card I get it - but used to be Jordan 600-800, Barkley was next at like $100-125 - then Malone, Ewing, Hakeem, Isaiah were all $65-100…now it’s like Jordan 8-10k for an “average” condition and Barkley $125-175 and the rest less than what they were then. It’s stupid - but I said the same thing about guys paying 20k for a ‘52 Mantle in 1992 - saying it’s not even his rookie - should be buying 51 Bowman for 1/4 of that. Now look at the pricing on each - I’d be happy to own either - but a lot happier with a high grade 52 than 4 good 51s.

[djefferis]

Beckett ruled the market -eBay came and changed the dynamic 1000%

In the day - any Clemente (or Mazeroski) card in Pittsburgh was like gold - Rose and Bench in Cincy and Cleveland - well football wasn’t as big then and Feller cards were scarce enough as is - but I made a lot of deals moving between shows in the 3 markets - trade a high dollar Rose for more in Clemente’s in Cincy - go to Pittsburgh and trade a Clemente for a bunch of Griffey or Ryan cards. A lot of trading on the side while selling unopened product I picked up wholesale for cash.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Good stuff, Djeff. Thanks for the confirmation on the stories.

I remember being at a show in the late 80s. Basketball just didn't move the needle. Not sure how much a Jordan rookie would have gone for, but it couldn't have been much.

I loved the Alcindor rook and the Magic/Bird dual-rookie. My friends repeatedly told me "Noboby cares about basketball."

I never collected Mantles but have bought a few mid-grade Mantles. For a long time, Mantle cards were an asset that appeared to be recession-proof as they seemingly never went down in value.

[hehfest]

Wow. That hockey collection is impressive too. Lots of big time RC's in all those years. Did you collect O-pee-chee or Topps? Some of those years there are many valuable cards if I remember correctly.

[hehfest]

Did notice Chuck that with lots of my 88-89 Fleer baskets they are all cut short on the left side on so many of them. I might not grade well with a lot of them but how much do the cuts matter for centering with grading?

[IMG][/IMG]

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Wow. That hockey collection is impressive too. Lots of big time RC's in all those years. Did you collect O-pee-chee or Topps? Some of those years there are many valuable cards if I remember correctly.

My hockey collection is something I worked on in recent years. Not so much back in the 1980s.

Gretzky stats just blew me away, and I was a fan of so many of the 1980 players. 1984-85 OPC was a great year for rooks.

I have the Gretzky Topps rook. I don't have the Gretzky OPC rook, a little out of my Tax Bracket.

The only other 1980s rookie that I don't think I have is the Patrick Roy rookie. Pretty expensive.

For 1980 to 1990, I think I have every set except the Patrick Roy year (1986-87) and the 1985-86 OPC set w/ Mario Lemieux.

I do have a nice 1980-81 OPC set that features the Messier/Bourque rookies and the 2nd-year Gretzky. There's one sidebar factor that I really like about the hockey sets from the 1980s: *All the secondary Gretzky cards.

Topps/OPC had a lot of leader cards back then. There are some sets where Gretzky has as many as nine cards:
*Base card
*Team card, where Wayne also shows up on the Stat leaders
*League leaders, when Wayne was leading the league in Points virtually every year
*Trophy cards, where Wayne was winning hardware on Hart Trophy, Art Ross etc

[ChuckyTheGoat]

The 1980-81 Topps set is pretty nice. 2nd-year Gretzky plus several other Wayne cards (including the Gretzky All Star). That set also includes several members of the 1980 USA Olympic team. Guys like Jim Craig and Craig Ramsay.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Did notice Chuck that with lots of my 88-89 Fleer baskets they are all cut short on the left side on so many of them. I might not grade well with a lot of them but how much do the cuts matter for centering with grading?

[IMG][/IMG]

By 1986 standards, that centering doesn't look too bad. I'd be more concerned with the corner wear.

Always loved that Nance photo. Nance really did jump out of the gym.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

I'll make a few more comments on the 1980s hockey: OPC versus Topps:

1) The OPC set was normally a little bigger than Topps. There's a reason the 1984 OPC is much better than Topps:
*OPC had the rookie cards for Neely, Gilmour, and Chelios. Topps didn't.

2) The story is that the OPC processing plant didn't have the greatest quality control.
*Impact is that MANY of the 1980 OPC cuts came out less than sharp.

3) This never made sense to me.
*Canada population is smaller than USA by a factor of 10x. But hockey is very popular in Canada.
*The Topps cards would have sharper cuts and look better. But Topps would have a higher overall production.
*The OPC cuts were so bad. I used to hear that an OPC card which comes out as a sharp cut is very likely trimmed.

Anyway, there are definite differences on the OPC vs Topps. OPC value often ran 3x versus Topps on the comparable card. Things to consider.

[pavyracer]

I have a friend who does baseball cards. He has about 250,000 but only a few worth the big bucks. He said you have to appraise or certify them to get the best value or something like that. He has no 401k or other savings. Everything he saved the last 30 years went to buy these cards. The wife is not happy.

[hehfest]

By 1986 standards, that centering doesn't look too bad. I'd be more concerned with the corner wear.

Always loved that Nance photo. Nance really did jump out of the gym.

I put that card in plastic probably 30 years ago. LOL. Only because it was "cool" aerial to me back then. I got some 86-87 and 87-88 from a friend 3 years older than me. He had them scattered all over the floor and stepping on them when I went in his house. Now, I wonder what if he had a Jordan and stepped all over it.

[USCPHILLYGUY]

Just started getting back into it as well. Have some really nice cards. Some of my favorites.

[USCPHILLYGUY]

[USCPHILLYGUY]

[USCPHILLYGUY]

[hehfest]

Love it. Dude, I thought about getting into buying storage unit foreclosures just hoping to run into a Jordan RC. LOL.

[hehfest]

Looks like you went to Game 4. But not the Game 5 clincher.

If you like this stuff, try to attend one of the big shows like The National. I've gone 2x, it's fun. You get to see some unique items.

Yes, correct. I was a young kid. What a treat. I have some old souvenirs from that game too. The number 1 foam finger with Tigers WS 1984 on it, etc.

I was also at the Barry Sanders game where he clinched the 2,000 yard season vs. the Jets. Still have the ticket. I think I was about 20-30 rows up near midfield.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Yes, correct. I was a young kid. What a treat. I have some old souvenirs from that game too. The number 1 foam finger with Tigers WS 1984 on it, etc.

I met Howard Johnson at a show. Great guy.

I actually forgot that he was a young player on the '84 Tigers. Then I saw him signing an '83 rookie card in the Tiger jersey.

[JAKEPEAVY21]

Got back into it during the pandemic but have cooled down quite a bit the past year or so...will post a few photos later

[JAKEPEAVY21]

Just started getting back into it as well. Have some really nice cards. Some of my favorites.

phillyguy, my advice is to spend a bit more and go for numbered cards or short prints....the base cards(non rare, non numbered) are a dime a dozen in most cases...supply and demand.

That is one of the main lessons that I learned since getting back into it a few years back.

Love it. Dude, I thought about getting into buying storage unit foreclosures just hoping to run into a Jordan RC. LOL.

Look closer, this is not his rookie card it is a reprint from 1996....