[str]

I'm sure most all here know this site. I go here occassionally. Just under the chance anyone doesn't know, it's a quick take on upcoming stakes race entries.

Stakes (horseracingnation.com)

Thanks Madison.

I’m sure that will be very helpful.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hey STR: Going to ask you a question about something Andy Serling stated today on FOX Sports about a horse in R5(SPA) the #3 Crazy Mason. First let me say I like Serling and he is fun to listen to. But he said today that the #3 was a slow horse based on his run at first asking. Therefore he was looking elsewhere. The shades went on and the horse cruised to an open Lengths score in MSW 83K. Also Maggie said in the paddock report that the horse was further along in his physical development than most of the other ponies in the race. I was just surprised to hear Serling say that based on 1 race. Your thoughts? THX.

[Easy-Rider 66]

BTW the #3 ran 5F on the dirt at MTH MSW 58K and now running 5.5F on the dirt at the SPA.

[Easy-Rider 66]

The Brisnet Par for the race was an 88 and the #3 ran a 66 his only race. So maybe Serling thought no way he could improve enough to win this MSW.

[Madison]

Hey Str,

I understand if you don't have the time and acknowledge that I'm green with the ponies, but would appreciate if you would comment on this 2yr olds last 2 races.

Likefunsize, in R1 was kind of left and lost early in her first start but seemingly had a nice run out and closed ok. Her next start she broke and was involved in the early pace and kind of faded.

She was 7/2 or so and thought I was about to cash but seemingly a kind of lame effort for what I expected with the nice start?

Thanks for everything you contribute.

[str]

Hey Str,

I understand if you don't have the time and acknowledge that I'm green with the ponies, but would appreciate if you would comment on this 2yr olds last 2 races.

Likefunsize, in R1 was kind of left and lost early in her first start but seemingly had a nice run out and closed ok. Her next start she broke and was involved in the early pace and kind of faded.

She was 7/2 or so and thought I was about to cash but seemingly a kind of lame effort for what I expected with the nice start?

Thanks for everything you contribute.

Sure will Madison.

Can you tell me the track where she ran ? I can see her chart at least but won't be able to see her 1st race.

Also, put her in a stable watch and when she is entered again, let me know. I will be able to see her PP's of both races prior to her next start and we can talk about it.

Thanks Madison.

[Madison]

Hi Str,

LikeFunSize

6/18 BEL MSW 5F 90K J Ortiz
7/19 SAR MSW 5.5F 83K Jevian Toledo

[str]

Hey STR: Going to ask you a question about something Andy Serling stated today on FOX Sports about a horse in R5(SPA) the #3 Crazy Mason. First let me say I like Serling and he is fun to listen to. But he said today that the #3 was a slow horse based on his run at first asking. Therefore he was looking elsewhere. The shades went on and the horse cruised to an open Lengths score in MSW 83K. Also Maggie said in the paddock report that the horse was further along in his physical development than most of the other ponies in the race. I was just surprised to hear Serling say that based on 1 race. Your thoughts? THX.

Wished I had had more of a chance to see all the horses in this race in the pp's, but missed it.

I assume, but you tell me if I'm wrong, that this race came up pretty easy in terms of quality?

Just glancing, this horse went off 4-1 as a firster at Monmouth, broke poorly, and advanced to be 2nd, then goes to the Spa with Blks. on and no workouts that really jump off the page, and goes off 7-2 ? That is my main reason for asking about the quality of the field.

I saw the 66 number and I see the 88 par. So did this race run an 88? I have no idea.

Glad to see you do like Andy Sterling. My opinion of him is that there quite a bit that be learned from listening to him explain what he sees in the form. But he is a true numbers guy, Beyer guy, not that there is anything wrong with that. But that is exactly how he will approach each race, especially if he has not been able to watch the horse he is commenting on live or on tape. Maybe he did, but that is a ton of work to prep for a show where he doesn't care that much for a horse. A big "hats off" to him if he did.
That said, I looked at the pp's last night once I saw your question and while yes, horses with his style of running pattern as a firster are ripe to improve next out with a better break and certainly require a 2nd look with blks. ON, I cannot see me liking this horse either going from Monmouth to the Spa. Not that I am Sterling but simply a guy looking at the race.
As a rule it is hard to win at the Spa as you know. Baby races can be brutally tough. I am left at a 9.00 mutual to assume this was not that. But you tell me.
Sure wish I had really seen the form of the field yesterday but just didn't have time to look at all the horses.

Maggie's comments were, as usual with her, spot on and she saw a tell as to if this horse could improve. Right again Maggie! I love her to death. So happy for her.

So I think that Andy's comments based on just one race was probably justified as much as just one race can be a telling story, which isn't always much. And you can bet, he knows that. But he had to say something and I am not sure, if it was me commenting on that horse, how much if any I might have said. The trainer I know, and he wins and has had some very nice horses, but, I personally would not gravitate towards his horse without more than I could see on paper. 27k yearling ? The Spa? And don't get me wrong, he obviously did a real nice job having the horse prepared. But when I looked at the form, the time, and everything all together, I would in all probability, not have been enough for me to start to get exited about her. Of course, she won by 9 lengths. I guess everyone is all pumped up now.

I am only somewhat helpful at best this time EZ because I did not get to spend 10 minutes or more on the entire field to get a true feel for the race. All I did was see her form and take a phone pic of her pp's.
If you have them, that would help me a bunch but no problem if you don't.

Lastly, most of you know I am not a figures player mainly because I was doing this for a long time before they even came out. I do see them and I am sure that they can point to many a winner or point to who cannot compete in a particular race. But I would have to think that if one was relying on those figures, a 2nd time starter, if they are ripe to improve, would be the most vulnerable area in that they are not considering any of those thousand little things that can bother a firster more so than any other category of starter. Whereas you have Maggie making a statement that is pretty eye opening as to the physical condition of one horse over the others in the field. That probably carry's the day with me more than a figure off a horses 1st race . Not because it worked out but because as you know, a baby can improve drastically basically overnight sometimes.

Had I heard what both said, I would have understood Andy's points for sure. But if no other horse in the field was a play for me in particular, what Maggie said probably would have really peaked my interest. But have to admit, 7-2 probably would have dialed that interest back pretty quickly.

Great to hear you are listening to Andy and Maggie. Both are extremely solid IMO. You can add Mig's to that as well. Not so much the handicapping angles he might provide but the visuals and the circumstantial angle for sure.

I mean, who better to have than Andy on the figs, Maggie in the paddock and Mig's on a circumstance a horse might have been in in it's previous race.

Keep listening EZ. IMO, you are definitely on the right track !

[Easy-Rider 66]

THX STR for the detailed take. I see your point about the horse moving from MTH to the SPA and only being 7/2. And yeah I am also under the Impression that Andy Is a numbers guy with the Beyer speed figures. I was just surprised that he would state that a horse is slow based on first asking. OK THX again sent you a pm with info on the PP's for the race.

[str]

THX STR for the detailed take. I see your point about the horse moving from MTH to the SPA and only being 7/2. And yeah I am also under the Impression that Andy Is a numbers guy with the Beyer speed figures. I was just surprised that he would state that a horse is slow based on first asking. OK THX again sent you a pm with info on the PP's for the race.

OK. Thanks EZ. I do see things better now.

First of all and probably most importantly. Here are the conditions for this MSW race. The reason it was not loaded with expensive babies is in the conditions below.

MAIDEN SPECIAL WEIGHT. 5 1/2 Furlongs Dirt. Purse $83,000. (UP TO $14,442 NYSBFOA) FOR MAIDENS, TWO YEARS OLD. Weight, 119 lbs. (For Horses That Sold or RNA for $50,000 Or Less In Their Most Recent Sale).


THIS IS HUGE : (For Horses That Sold or RNA for $50,000 Or Less In Their Most Recent Sale).

So I assume the par for a MSW race would be an 88. But how about for THIS condition restricted race? It has to be less doesn't it? I have no idea.
I kept saying to myself, how in the hell did this horse pay 7-2. Now I see why.

So no Pletcher, etc. with the monsters.

It was a watered down MSW.

So I get how it won. I get why the race came up light.

This was not the step up in class height I expected going from Monmouth to the Spa.

[Easy-Rider 66]

OK. Thanks EZ. I do see things better now.

First of all and probably most importantly. Here are the conditions for this MSW race. The reason it was not loaded with expensive babies is in the conditions below.

MAIDEN SPECIAL WEIGHT. 5 1/2 Furlongs Dirt. Purse $83,000. (UP TO $14,442 NYSBFOA) FOR MAIDENS, TWO YEARS OLD. Weight, 119 lbs. (For Horses That Sold or RNA for $50,000 Or Less In Their Most Recent Sale).


THIS IS HUGE : (For Horses That Sold or RNA for $50,000 Or Less In Their Most Recent Sale).

So I assume the par for a MSW race would be an 88. But how about for THIS condition restricted race? It has to be less doesn't it? I have no idea.
I kept saying to myself, how in the hell did this horse pay 7-2. Now I see why.

So no Pletcher, etc. with the monsters.

It was a watered down MSW.

So I get how it won. I get why the race came up light.

This was not the step up in class height I expected going from Monmouth to the Spa.

OK STR thx for the clarification. Yeah no loaded pedigrees that I remember.

[str]

Hi Str,

LikeFunSize

6/18 BEL MSW 5F 90K J Ortiz
7/19 SAR MSW 5.5F 83K Jevian Toledo

We are left to have to try and guess what might have happened in that 2nd race. So a couple of things come to mind.

Saratoga is always going to be a harder place to win a race than Belmont. It's just the nature of the beast.

This horse was bumped in both starts. That is unlucky but not all that uncommon.


In her 1st start, she was soundly bumped leaving the gate. A bump like that can be of little consequence or a lot of consequence. Because it took her into the turn to start to concentrate on the race again, it could have knocked the wind out of her somewhat which took 20-30 seconds to fully recover from. That does happen, probably more than you might think. Why else was she still dropping back after an 1/8th of a mile? It could have been the dirt kickback but I did not see the race. So, that bump would be my guess. Late in the race it looked like she ran very well so I see what you saw and agree.

In her 2nd race, at Saratoga, she did much better early as you know and was bothered again, this time into the turn. Not terrible but it allowed her to stop thinking about the race for a second or two. You don't really want your horse to be thinking of something, other than competing while racing and you never know if when she was bumped into the turn, what went on in her head. The jockey probably felt it but we have no idea if it was nothing or something.
I can see where you must have thought she was a winner for the 1st half of the race. So what do you do now?

I would not give up on her yet. What she needs is a fairly uneventful trip. If that happens, I think you get to see who she is. She CAN run. And she is being bet like it. In her next race, I assume people will start to get away from her. Me, I think I would play her one more time assuming she is not in a real tough race with some monsters. Hopefully an outside post where she can sit where she wants , with a clean right eye, left alone for a change and focus on winning instead of surviving.
I think that is how I would approach her next race.
That's my take.
Keep us posted Madison.

GL and all the best.

[Madison]

STR, you are truly the man! I can't thank you enough for helping me to transition from hounds to ponies. So much I just don't know about ponies.

Be well, and thanks again!!

[str]

STR, you are truly the man! I can't thank you enough for helping me to transition from hounds to ponies. So much I just don't know about ponies.

Be well, and thanks again!!

It's my pleasure Madison.

Thanks.

[str]

Jason Servis officially received 4 years in jail today for his crimes.

He deserved more IMO and the judge agreed.

He cried at the sentencing for putting his family through "all of this". That, I understand. And getting wrapped up in a moment with his cheating, well, maybe I can begin to understand that as well. Not really though.
But what he did was a lot more than a moment. And it ruined or changed many many lives along the way. Not just his and his families.
The horses that went to work each morning for him and gave him all they had, not knowing they were not being cared for properly. The honest people he raced against and their families and what his cheating cost and ultimately did to them.
I hope he thinks about that with his idle time. I will not hold my breath though. People like that can rarely see past themselves.

Nothing is perfect and these new horse integrity act rules are far from it. However, they are a lot more than allowing a terrible status quo to remain. You have to start somewhere. At least they have, finally. Too late for some, but just in time for others.

The game was out of control 30+ years ago. Everywhere I assume but Maryland for sure. Much of the public was not aware of that. Many people got away with quite a bit. For those that did, and you know who you are, screw you.

Thanks for putting up with the rant.

Twenty three years later and more like thirty three years including those years I had to compete against that stench, there is finally at least the glimmer of the sun rising again on the backside.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Tough words on the take STR. But I can understand your frustration. Hopefully a wake up call to those who may consider a cheating regimen. THX.

[JBEX]

Jason Servis officially received 4 years in jail today for his crimes.

He deserved more IMO and the judge agreed.

He cried at the sentencing for putting his family through "all of this". That, I understand. And getting wrapped up in a moment with his cheating, well, maybe I can begin to understand that as well. Not really though.
But what he did was a lot more than a moment. And it ruined or changed many many lives along the way. Not just his and his families.
The horses that went to work each morning for him and gave him all they had, not knowing they were not being cared for properly. The honest people he raced against and their families and what his cheating cost and ultimately did to them.
I hope he thinks about that with his idle time. I will not hold my breath though. People like that can rarely see past themselves.

Nothing is perfect and these new horse integrity act rules are far from it. However, they are a lot more than allowing a terrible status quo to remain. You have to start somewhere. At least they have, finally. Too late for some, but just in time for others.

The game was out of control 30+ years ago. Everywhere I assume but Maryland for sure. Much of the public was not aware of that. Many people got away with quite a bit. For those that did, and you know who you are, screw you.

Thanks for putting up with the rant.

Twenty three years later and more like thirty three years including those years I had to compete against that stench, there is finally at least the glimmer of the sun rising again on the backside.

well said str..glad he'll be doing time for his unscrupulous acts ..absolutely deserves it !

[lesterdymond]

Words of passion STR..
Can you tell me about the cocaine use going at Finger Lakes back in the day. Or overall widespread use between the jockeys in the hay day

[str]

Tough words on the take STR. But I can understand your frustration. Hopefully a wake up call to those who may consider a cheating regimen. THX.

I know EZ. They were tough words. But it did feel good typing it, especially the part to those that "know who they are". And I suppose I should have included the owners that fired honest trainers to run to the cheaters. They too, are a special group. I did not realize how low in the mud "business" could be when I was young. It took several of these type of moves to understand the difference between decent people and those that are anything but.

And yes, this new integrity act has the trainers attention. That is a good thing for the game and the fans.

All the best my friend.

[str]

well said str..glad he'll be doing time for his unscrupulous acts ..absolutely deserves it !

Thanks JBEX !

[str]

Words of passion STR..
Can you tell me about the cocaine use going at Finger Lakes back in the day. Or overall widespread use between the jockeys in the hay day

Q. "Words of passion STR.."

A. Yes. No question about it Lester.

Q. Can you tell me about the cocaine use going at Finger Lakes back in the day.

A. Finger Lakes was such a small blip on the radar in the 70's for us in Md., we barely heard anything about it. I did not know it was a story to be honest. As small and bad a product as NY breds were back then, I don't recall ever talking or hearing about Finger Lakes. Nobody shipped from Md. to run there that I can recall. Most races were too cheap to spend the money or lose eligibility by running for too low a claiming price. We had Charlestown and later that decade, Penn. Nat. to run those that couldn't get it done in Md.


Q. Or overall widespread use between the jockeys in the hay day

A. In the early and mid 70's , in Maryland, I don't think any riders were doing that other than recreationally ,here and there, type of thing. That colony of riders was an older one for the most part. Family guys mostly. But I didn't start training until mid 1976 so I could be mistaken.

From 76-79, when I got to know many of them well, coke was , in my mind and experience, just creeping into my social scene. Again, the older riders did not to my knowledge do that stuff but the young kids were probably doing it I guess, again, recreationally, like a Saturday night thing.
In the Spectacular Bid book that came out I think about a year ago, " The Fast Ride", shown below, it details a lot of stuff related to your question.



I was not a part of that social group at all. Quite to the contrary, the book speaks to an incident I had with Bud Delp that would make that very clear. Lol. If interested, it is worth the read. Probably get it used on Ebay or somewhere for about 15-20 bucks.

The one thing I will say about that book is, I did not know all that went on with Bud, his owners, etc. But the parts I knew about, which were a good portion of the book, are absolutely true. When I read it, it was dead on in many instances. Heck, I even remember the girl selling the ice cream at Bowie and that rider Canino. I think I spotted three mistakes. Not big ones, but they were indeed inaccurate. Small stuff, but they were incorrect and not IMO. They were incorrect period. I can clear those up if your interested.

Bud, Ronnie and that crowd got hung up in it pretty badly. The book talks a lot about that. My crowd did hear rumblings about it at the time, and sometimes a story or two, but were never into that. And in hind sight, thank God. There were a few crossover friends that knew both crowds well. Just a few though.
And I'm not saying we were alter boys but we did not take it nearly that far. That said, it was the 70's, so it needs to be in that context IMO.

As we got into the 80's and forward, I was married and having kids and by the mid 80's a new generation of riders were coming in as the older riders had mostly retired.

I did know of one rider in particular that was actually very good, and a leading rider or close often, who fell hard from the coke scene. I'm sure there were a few more but they were years younger and me and my rowdy friends were rowdied on down, as Hank Jr. put it.

Diet pills were big back then and the weight assignments were lower in many races which made it real tough of some of the riders but that apparently did not make you high, just screwed up you body from what I was told. When riders got hurt several fell prey to the painkillers and that ruined most if not all of them. We still see that everywhere today. What an awful mess that was and still is. I totally avoided it, thankfully. It ruined some genuinely nice, kind, people that I knew or worked with. Talking about it makes me kind of sick so I'll pull up on that subject for now.

Hope that helps Lester.

Get the book ! You will like it. Easy read.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hey STR: got a race I want your opinion on from DMR Today. Race #1 the horse in question is the #2 Granitiansevensix. I will pm you the PP info. Take a look at his PP when you can. The thing I found surprising is only 8/1 on the ML coming into a MSW 82K from a MOC30K at Turf Paradise. First on turf and off a 3.5 month lay off. 2nd career race, The thing that jumps off the page is the works. Extremely Fast works lately and I assume with the shades on as the trainer was adding them today. Anyway I seriously considered playing the #2 but got scared off by the jump in class and the BRIS Prime power rating in which they had assigned him one of the lowest I have seen. Considering he had run only 1 race prior I should not have paid much attention to that. Overall I think it's a good example of works that do not lie as the horse scored at 10/1. Your thoughts. THX STR.

[Easy-Rider 66]

One more thing about works STR. I am much more likely to upgrade a horse based on really fast moves than downgrade a horse based on slow moves. If I see a lot of things I like and a horse is working kind of slow I may still use that pony. I remember you talked about a horse in this thread that was a slow mover in the mornings but won quite a few races for you. But it has been my experience over a 10 year time frame of studying the form that really fast moves in the morning can translate into success in the afternoons.

[str]

For some reason it would not let me attach your quotes because I was missing a security token???

Whatever. Here are my comments EZ.





Let's break down everything that went through your mind in the decision making:

Q. The thing I found surprising is only 8/1 on the ML coming into a MSW 82K from a MOC30K at Turf Paradise.

A. You would think the horse would be 30-1 or more in the program. I get that. But of all the odds that the lines makers put up, there is one line that tells you they have no idea what to do with that particular horse. That number is 8-1. Not 6-1 or 10-1 or anything else. Every other number has a bit of a statement within it. 8-1 is waving the red flag or No opinion. That is really important to remember. That is why you see it on many a firster.
This is not an opinion. I was originally told this by Clem Florio who did the morning lines for years in Md. in the late 70's and 80's. It was backed up for decades by all the different lines makers in Md. after Clem. I asked all of them. Why? Because I love this kind of stuff and wanted to know.

I know you have seen 8-1 on many a firster over the years. What that is saying from the odds maker is, I am not aware of any heavy steam on the horse. The clockers are not lining up to play the horse. It is a firster and here, 8-1. Now YOU figure it out. And from there most people will watch the tote board and see what's going on and check the will pays to see if there are any clues, and then just keep the horse in or throw it out. All the other odds presented make some sort of statement except 8-1. In this case, anything but 30-1 or higher was a big compliment IMO.
Hope that makes sense as it is totally not an opinion. Straight from the horses mouth, no pun intended.

Q. First on turf and off a 3.5 month lay off. 2nd career race, The thing that jumps off the page is the works. Extremely Fast works lately and I assume with the shades on as the trainer was adding them today.

A. Let's face it. The horse should have been 50-1 or more if that last race was anything close to it's ability. So in this case, you have to put together what you think is happening. And you were on the right track. Those works were a night and day difference. The horse was doing great in the morning as you noted.

Q. Anyway I seriously considered playing the #2 but got scared off by the jump in class and the BRIS Prime power rating in which they had assigned him one of the lowest I have seen.

A. The jump in class was potentially crazy high. Can't beat yourself up for that. But I think the big flaw in your thinking was the BRIS prime power rating being one of the lowest you has seen. I say that because you knew full well that the horse ran a terrible first race. And it sounds like the bad effort on paper as we see the running lines were not really applicable yesterday due to your correct ( in hind sight) observation that the California workouts were great, including or maybe I should say capped off with, a real fine gate work that the horse had with blinkers to get it's gate card to be able to start with those blinkers "ON".
So it seems like you dismissed everything except the low prime power. And please EZ, don't get me wrong. We are all great cappers when we have the results. What I am doing is reading what you wrote and seeing that you might have been ok with taking a flyer on this horse even with the chart showing him 33 lengths back after a 1/4 mile and 23 at the finish. But the low prime power got you off of him.
We have probably all been there a thousand times before. When that happens to me, in hindsight I usually conclude the same type of thing. That being, as the race got close to running you weren't convinced enough to play the horse so you let the low prime number talk you off the horse. And, THAT is the essence of handicapping and decision making.
I would say if you take anything away from this , see that the terrible running line and the prime number were both terrible. If you are dismissing one, you MUST dismiss both. They are essentially one in the same. You can't split those IMO. Especially off of a bad race. I suppose you CAN split those if the prime number is showing that what looks like a decent effort might be masked by a slower than usual par for that class and distance or something like that.

I hope I am saying that correctly because it is really important. Please let me know if I need to try and say it differently.

Q. Considering he had run only 1 race prior I should not have paid much attention to that.

A. Exactly ! And the best news about this is you are well aware of that.

Q. Overall I think it's a good example of works that do not lie as the horse scored at 10/1.

A. Absolutely. And to add to that, some horses can work really fast all the time and not actually be much in the afternoon. Morning glory's we called them. And some as you know can work very slow in the AM and come out smokin in the PM. We have talked about that as well.

But when you see one that worked not badly but not great, then ran a terrible race, has a change of trainer and venue as well as some time to regroup and is working lights out every race, especially that last gate move, AND moves UP in class, And adds blinkers ON, that stuff should carry the day over anything that happened before the new life. But again EZ, real easy for me to point out when I can see the chart. We all sound so smart the next day.

So I say great job with coming as close as you did to playing this horse. Very well done. And if you can find another one like that someday, and it cashes and you are on it, yesterday was money well spent. Educations cost money. Not learning from what you can learn from is a waste of money. Big difference. And it's great that you realized it right away.

Such a tough game but that's why it is so much fun IMO.


Q. One more thing about works STR. I am much more likely to upgrade a horse based on really fast moves than downgrade a horse based on slow moves. If I see a lot of things I like and a horse is working kind of slow I may still use that pony. I remember you talked about a horse in this thread that was a slow mover in the mornings but won quite a few races for you. But it has been my experience over a 10 year time frame of studying the form that really fast moves in the morning can translate into success in the afternoons.


A. I agree with this.

It's all about HOW the horse did what it did. And if you think Blks. ON might have something to do with it, all the better.

All the best my friend. So close with that one. If the icons worked here , you would be getting a thumbs up.

[Easy-Rider 66]

As usual STR thx for the detailed response. And I never knew that an 8/1 designation was a sort of red flag for an oddsmaker of horses. THX.

[str]

Forte goes with Blinkers ON today in the Jim Dandy. That should be interesting to see if he gets away from that "lose ground from down the backside to the 3/8ths pole stuff. I used to call it a Z pattern but I have to think people call it something else. Pretty much looks like he is wasting time from entering the far turn until he leaves the far turn while others are getting a better position.
Certainly makes perfect sense that now is the time to try and fix that with blinkers and get him into the bit as they hit the far turn.

I would expect him to kick at least somewhat on his own when asked lightly before being fully asked around the 1/4 pole. That is kind of the key. We shall see.

Problem with this race though is it looks like a solo speed will get a nice pace early. Saudi Crown will , I assume, try and make the lead early without much effort and walk the dog down the backside and get a 48 half mile. If he does, he really has a nice chance to steal this one.

Good luck if you play it everyone.

[str]

As usual STR thx for the detailed response. And I never knew that an 8/1 designation was a sort of red flag for an oddsmaker of horses. THX.

No problem EZ. And let me know if you see the 8-1 stuff moving forward. Firsters and question mark types like I said. Not always, but often enough.

[Easy-Rider 66]

No problem EZ. And let me know if you see the 8-1 stuff moving forward. Firsters and question mark types like I said. Not always, but often enough.

OK STR will be on notice for that.

[Easy-Rider 66]

No problem EZ. And let me know if you see the 8-1 stuff moving forward. Firsters and question mark types like I said. Not always, but often enough.

DMR R1 today. : 8/1 on the #5 horse. All FTS. placed.

[ConleyPicks]

Hi STR

As you probably saw today there was a lot of drama with the running of the Jim Dandy Stakes with Forte staying up for the win.

You can clearly see that Irad makes a move where there is 0 room to make and bumps around with the #5 and #4.

The question is for you: Would you take Forte down or leave him up? Thanks

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hi STR

As you probably saw today there was a lot of drama with the running of the Jim Dandy Stakes with Forte staying up for the win.

You can clearly see that Irad makes a move where there is 0 room to make and bumps around with the #5 and #4.

The question is for you: Would you take Forte down or leave him up? Thanks

Yeah interested to get your take STR. On the head shot you can see Angel of Empire knocking out Forte's hind leg. Wonder if that played into the Stewards decision?

[Madison]

Hi Str,

SAR R9 7/29. I had a playback on Tough Street 1A. Was a pretty full field of 16. Due to rain they took it off the turf and ended up with a field of 6. They loaded the 6 remaining horses backward. In other words, facing the 16 stall gate, the #1 was way out to the left versus what you expect to be the first stall on your right.

I bet the race counting on the #1 to be in the traditional stall. He ended up on the way outside of that awkward quick approaching first turn. I almost canceled $10 wps but was doing ok for the day so stuck with it. As I expected he ended up 4th or 5th about 3 or 4 lenghts back. I got lucky as he closed and ended up winning.

My question is ... Why the change of gate positioning. I'm not sure I've ever seen this before.

Thanks , and be well!!

[str]

Hi STR

As you probably saw today there was a lot of drama with the running of the Jim Dandy Stakes with Forte staying up for the win.

You can clearly see that Irad makes a move where there is 0 room to make and bumps around with the #5 and #4.
The question is for you: Would you take Forte down or leave him up? Thanks

It is a question that many are asking.
But before we get to what I would have done, let me say this.

The stewards must set the tone with the riding colony at each track as to what they will allow and what they won’t. I learned this, from the Stewards in Md. about 50 years ago. This was backed up by Mr. John Rotz, a great rider in his day, and a fine Steward at Delaware Park in the late 70's
Once that is established, the most important part is consistency and communication. The riders must know what they can and cannot do.
Things that are allowed today were absolutely not permitted back then. There was no “ free first step out of the gate “. There was no “yes he fouled the other horse but the horse would have won anyway.” and that list goes on and on.
That said, as much as I might disagree with some of the changes that Stewards have made since I left, others are probably for the good of the patrons. So what needs to be asked is, “ should Forte have come down or not in the eyes of the NY Stewards.

I watched the race and heard what the different talking heads said. But honestly, it should not be what anyone thinks but the 3 stewards. But, it better be consistent. That must happen. From all the rough riding Irad gets away with , was this all that much different? Honestly, I don't think it was. He does this often enough that this didn't really surprise many I don't think other than for them to say, he just did it again.

Personally, I cannot believe the things they allow in New York. It’s a darn good thing those riders are as great as they are or they might kill one another. And by far the biggest culprit is Irad. He is elite on a horses back but he did not learn to ride like that from day one. He is so talented and in such complete control that he has adapted to what is allowed and takes full advantage of it.
It’s like the blessing and the curse. He’s as good as it gets but if anyone lives on the edge that much, someone is bound to be severely injured or killed eventually IMO.
That cannot be on Irad though IMO, but instead on the policy makers that decides what is right and what is wrong on a daily basis.
Irad rides to win. And being on the best horse helps him be able to do the things he does as often as we see it.
I hope with all I have that nothing terrible comes from all the bulling, floating, bumping, etc. that takes place way too often from what little I see but it will be a miracle if it doesn’t.

I have to ask CJ about this and get his opinion. He would know better than I.

Lastly, if the riders at just about any other circuit tried this , regardless of the Stewards decisions on the matter , somebody would be hurt or worse within a month. Most riders just do not have the total control of a horse the way Irad and those riders up there have. But again, Irad is usually on one of the best horses in the race which makes all that easier.

Now that I said all that, if I was a steward there, the answer would be yes, I would have taken him down but it probably wouldn’t have happened because Irad would not have ever been allowed to do that from whenever I started and I would have made that clear when I met with the riders on day 1 of my employment.

Bottom line on this conversation is: He is taking everything the Stewards allow him to.

Hope that helps Conley. Nice to hear from you.
Feel free to follow up if necessary.

[ConleyPicks]

STR

Thank you for the greeting and the detailed analysis on this situation I really do appreciate it seeing in someones eyes like yours lol.

I too would be taking Forte down as it was truly unfair for Irad to be riding like that. Like what you said he is on the best horses since he is the "better" rider vs the rest of the field 99.99% of the time. But that doesn't mean he cannot follow the rules like the 0.01%. The rules are there for a reason and he like everyone else should follow it. I get it that the stewards luckily gave Irad a slap on the wrist for this one but like really? What is this proving to all the horseplayers who watch where Irad goes? You cannot expect to get away with this forever lol.

Just my 2 cents. I am no expert but I am a young horseplayer who wants to continue watch the sport he loves grow and not die because of stupid crap like Irad and everything else in the mix right now (Baffert/Small Fields/High Win % Favourites etc).

[str]

Yeah interested to get your take STR. On the head shot you can see Angel of Empire knocking out Forte's hind leg. Wonder if that played into the Stewards decision?

If it did, that seems to me to be a case of the Stewards letting themselves off the hook. What was Angel of Empires jock supposed to do?

At this point all this is the Stewards mess. And only they, or their superiors, can clean it up.

Like I said yesterday, I really hope it can settle down somewhat before something bad happens to a jockey or a horse.

It's just gone a little too far IMO. Others too, apparently.