[str]

re: wind

I look at a weather report and I try to see flags during post parade, running of the race etc.
It's surprising how few people factor in wind . At Hawthorne, especially during the spring meeting, it can have a huge effect.

Jake, I was thinking about you while writing that last post. The run ups are a must in calculating pure speed off of the form. Is there a place where all that is posted for all the tracks or is it like the old school where you do the leg work on your own?

Also, I remember sitting with a pro gambler early on in my career ( always enjoyed learning from the old guys no matter there job description) and an hour before the 1st post the National Anthem would come on. He said that the anthem was a great time to show respect to the flag, take note if it's standing straight out or not, and if it is, play accordingly. LOl but really true.

Thanks for checking in.

[JakeLc]

I think it's available in the Equibase charts they have on their website.
I get the runup in the data for the software that I use.
As an example of runup affecting times at the first call ,in Trinniberg's most recent start at Calder his time to the 1/4 is 2 tenths faster when adjusted for runup.
Another example is the time to the 1/4 for his most recent start at Parx is 3 tenths faster when adjusted for runup.

[Dark Horse]

Thanks for outlining all that. I will be playing the California tracks, so this is an important part. Strangely, the information I'm looking for, from a first glance, seems to be already present in my model, but the way I have to read that information differs per bias. I hadn't realized that until the BC hammered it into me. For instance, on a normal track a bad start can sometimes even be an advantage if the horse has a strong stretch run (the energy saved at the start will work in his favor later on; the bad start merely forced him to race like a closer). Conversely, if the start was good at Santa Anita, the quality of the stretch run needed to be only marginally good to hold on. So it's combining the same pieces of the puzzle in different ways. Of course the question remains if the maintenance crew also made the track faster for the Breeder's Cup; as mentioned before in this thread for special races. Anyway, speed bias doesn't seem so annoying anymore. If a better understanding of speed bias can help reduce the field to a few horses that's worth a little extra effort.

On a sidenote. After widespread annoyance about the added sand and deeper surface at Santa Anita for the first two or so weeks of the fall meet, the first good rain changed the surface into something that someone like Baffert considered extremely good; fast with a nice bounce. (then again, he was 0 for 9 in this BC on his home track).

[str]

Thanks for outlining all that. I will be playing the California tracks, so this is an important part. Strangely, the information I'm looking for, from a first glance, seems to be already present in my model, but the way I have to read that information differs per bias. I hadn't realized that until the BC hammered it into me. For instance, on a normal track a bad start can sometimes even be an advantage if the horse has a strong stretch run (the energy saved at the start will work in his favor later on; the bad start merely forced him to race like a closer). Conversely, if the start was good at Santa Anita, the quality of the stretch run needed to be only marginally good to hold on. So it's combining the same pieces of the puzzle in different ways. Of course the question remains if the maintenance crew also made the track faster for the Breeder's Cup; as mentioned before in this thread for special races. Anyway, speed bias doesn't seem so annoying anymore. If a better understanding of speed bias can help reduce the field to a few horses that's worth a little extra effort.

On a sidenote. After widespread annoyance about the surface at Santa Anita for the first two or so weeks of the fall meet, the first good rain changed the surface into something that someone like Baffert considered extremely good; fast with a nice bounce. (then again, he was 0 for 9 in this BC on his home track).

Only Baffert could say that the track had a nice bounce to it when they run 1/2s in 43 and change.

Lol.

• 
  

[str]

Thanks for outlining all that. I will be playing the California tracks, so this is an important part. Strangely, the information I'm looking for, from a first glance, seems to be already present in my model, but the way I have to read that information differs per bias. I hadn't realized that until the BC hammered it into me. For instance, on a normal track a bad start can sometimes even be an advantage if the horse has a strong stretch run (the energy saved at the start will work in his favor later on; the bad start merely forced him to race like a closer). Conversely, if the start was good at Santa Anita, the quality of the stretch run needed to be only marginally good to hold on. So it's combining the same pieces of the puzzle in different ways. Of course the question remains if the maintenance crew also made the track faster for the Breeder's Cup; as mentioned before in this thread for special races. Anyway, speed bias doesn't seem so annoying anymore. If a better understanding of speed bias can help reduce the field to a few horses that's worth a little extra effort.

On a sidenote. After widespread annoyance about the added sand and deeper surface at Santa Anita for the first two or so weeks of the fall meet, the first good rain changed the surface into something that someone like Baffert considered extremely good; fast with a nice bounce. (then again, he was 0 for 9 in this BC on his home track).

I don't think the maintenance crews in Cal. did much out of the norm. Other venues have weather issues and such to deal with. That place is smokin fast on Tuesdays.

[harthebar]

Str ..hey .its double bounctious...lol ..about 3-4 weeks ago. I was asking you about a horse that just won his maiden race. At. Calif. He is a 2 year old ....I mentioned I had high hopes on him from watching his first time race.......he came into his second race 3-4 weeks ago and got second....I asked your opinion...and you said he ran ....I forgot the word....all out ..he never settled down....anyway ...he ran yesterday at delta. In a million dollar race ..and i thought won easy ..after he was pushed really hard the first half.....his name is goldendencents ...he was in the 7th race post 9 ..if you can watch replay ..I would like your thoughts....thanks.......my house house got hammered up here in Atlantic.city.......4-5 feet of water in my living area ..need a good co.struction guy ..no any....its a mess...and thanks for being on this site......you really explain things well.

[str]

Str ..hey .its double bounctious...lol ..about 3-4 weeks ago. I was asking you about a horse that just won his maiden race. At. Calif. He is a 2 year old ....I mentioned I had high hopes on him from watching his first time race.......he came into his second race 3-4 weeks ago and got second....I asked your opinion...and you said he ran ....I forgot the word....all out ..he never settled down....anyway ...he ran yesterday at delta. In a million dollar race ..and i thought won easy ..after he was pushed really hard the first half.....his name is goldendencents ...he was in the 7th race post 9 ..if you can watch replay ..I would like your thoughts....thanks.......my house house got hammered up here in Atlantic.city.......4-5 feet of water in my living area ..need a good co.struction guy ..no any....its a mess...and thanks for being on this site......you really explain things well.

The term was " running off" or "ran off'. What is meant by that is the horse runs like it's tail is on fire, and no matter what the jock is doing, the horse is running at full energy output the entire time. That is exactly what he did in the race he was 2nd in.

Yesterday, after watching the replay, he actually was not pushed hard early. He was allowed to run on his own and his thought process is to just run fast and catch anything he can see at this point. As a result, yes, he did push himself somewhat through the lane the first time, but seemed much more fluid in his running this time vs. the last time once he was clear and they went down the backside. A lot of what you saw yesterday had to do with running at a bull ring(3/4 mile track). The 1/8th of a mile stretch had a lot to do with what looked to be staying power. Belmont can expose horses running off like no other place. He did run a little better than last time, as far as relaxing was concerned but he has a long way to go. Effort wise, he might have actually been more impressive in his last race than he was yesterday. At best IMO they were equal efforts. Too finish up 2nd at Belmont the way he ran showed he has a lot of talent. And, the horse that beat him won the B.C. Juvenile in his next out.
The horse has a lot of talent which is evident. He will need to learn to relax if he wants to go farther and against better into next year. There is no doubt that this is the plan. Not that he needs to learn to lay 2nd or third overnight, although that would be optimum, but he needs to learn to relax when he has the chance too. They will try to make this happen, so we will see.

Sorry to hear about your house. I do not know any construction people there. Probably best to ask your insurance company or better still, word of mouth . Careful with putting a 1/3rd down for work to anyone. No reason that the 1/3rd down can't go directly to materials and permits that need to be ordered 1st anyway. They can order them but you pay for them, thus, they get the 1/3rd down and you have something to fall back on . Whatever you do, be sure and get permits through the county or state before doing any work with those guys. That will allow you to fall back on there licensing bonding and pretty much make them accountable throughout. Yes, it costs a little more but think of it as insurance against anyone possibly scamming you . It also will be needed for resale purposes. Being a custom home builder after retiring from the track, I now realize that that is the best way to go. I would not have known that 15 years ago.
Say hello to your aunt Nancy next time you talk to her. She was always classy but I can't say the same for the other half of her entry(Dan). Lol.

Hope that helps.

[harthebar]

i will say hello to her,i think don passed...maybe liver problems...not sure....she left him a whils ago....ive been doing pretty much all my own work in the house ...what i can ..to cut the cost,like insulation ,sheet rock...cleaning and and the demo work.......but i also have my own job.....yea i alsi did electric....now comes the time consuming stuff,tile ...plumming.....no need to spwnd it ..if i can do some......but i hate sanding sheet rock....ill put it up...thanks for all ...

[Dark Horse]

I don't think the maintenance crews in Cal. did much out of the norm. Other venues have weather issues and such to deal with. That place is smokin fast on Tuesdays.

I believe you. But the speed bias seemed a little out of the norm for the BC.

Here's Baffert two weeks later:

Baffert, a three-time winner of the Cigar Mile, said Coil had no chance in the Breeders’ Cup Sprint given how Santa Anita’s main track favored speed and his horse comes from off the pace in sprints.

“You had to come back completely clean,” said Baffert, referring to the fact that speed horses don’t get dirt kicked at them. “If I had known the track would have been like that, we would have gone in the [Dirt] Mile.”

This is his home track, and he didn't have a good read on it for the BC. For two turn races on the dirt, you had to be within a length and half at the quarter mile. Nobody beat that. Horses did beat it for one turn races.

I wouldn't mind seeing the same in the next Breeders Cup. But if Santa Anita was always this dependent on the start, wouldn't everybody have known?

[str]

I believe you. But the speed bias seemed a little out of the norm for the BC.

Here's Baffert two weeks later:


This is his home track, and he didn't have a good read on it for the BC. For two turn races on the dirt, you had to be within a length and half at the quarter mile. Nobody beat that. Horses did beat it for one turn races.

I wouldn't mind seeing the same in the next Breeders Cup. But if Santa Anita was always this dependent on the start, wouldn't everybody have known?

Understanding what causes a speed bias is really tricky. I completely agree that it was ridiculous that the break was such a key and that horses could not make up ground. I was speaking more in terms of the fractions and how they are always so much faster than most places.


While he said that he was unaware it would be THAT speed favoring, it has always been speed favoring. That day just took it up a couple of notches.
As I said before, I don't pay attention to Cal. racing much and never really did all that much, being from the east coast, even when I was training. Too me, it was a bit of a turnoff that speed always had such an edge. Unfortunately, this years B.C. races were quite affected by a speed bias at a speed bias track. A double dose of it.

I would be surprised if it was that bad next year. Typically, when a track gets blasted in the media about something like this, it goes to great lengths to make sure it does not happen again. But... I just can't imagine Santa Anita not favoring speed to some extent and I think that most would except a normal S.A. type surface, especially after this years B.C. addition, so we will have to see how it works out.

[Dark Horse]

I wasn't aware the media had blasted the BC speed bias this year. So the reason for the different accent (of speed bias) is not really identifiable? Oh well, it's another year away. Bias is a big topic, that I'm just scratching the surface of. Looking forward to the muddy season...

Happy Thanksgiving str, and thanks for another year of great advice.

[str]

I wasn't aware the media had blasted the BC speed bias this year. So the reason for the different accent (of speed bias) is not really identifiable? Oh well, it's another year away. Bias is a big topic, that I'm just scratching the surface of. Looking forward to the muddy season...

Happy Thanksgiving str, and thanks for another year of great advice.

It is my pleasure. I hope it helps you and others.

As for today, when you take pause and think about it, we all have much to be thankful for.

I know I do.

Happy Thanksgiving everybody.

[harthebar]

str happy thanksgiving to you

[str]

Most might not have 11 minutes in which to watch this, but if you do, I recommend it. I watch this every year and it never gets old.

Unfortunately, this dreaded disease affects us all in one way or another. I thought I would post it to honor those close to me that have fought this battle.

Sometimes it is good to stop our busy lives for a bit and simply remember.

[Dark Horse]

Str, what are some of the thoughts that a history as the one below would bring to your mind? It's for No Hesitation, a 5 year old who races at Hollywood Park this Thursday. The horse was never worse than 3rd in his first eight starts, but never better than 3rd in his 7 starts since. Did he lose his competitive edge?

Northlands Park	8/25/2012	11	 Westerner Handicap	        9		
Northlands Park	8/11/2012	8	 Allowance Optional Claiming	7		
Woodbine	5/6/2012	8	 Vigil Stakes - Gr. 3	        6		
Northlands Park	6/17/2011	7	 Allowance Optional Claiming	3		
Northlands Park	5/22/2011	5	 Allowance Optional Claiming	3		
Fonner Park	5/1/2011	8	 Allowance	                7		
Remington Park	10/10/2010	10	 Oklahoma Derby	                4		
Northlands Park	8/21/2010	10	 Canadian Derby - Gr. 3	        1		
Northlands Park	7/31/2010	7	 Count Lathum Handicap	        1		
Northlands Park	7/10/2010	7	 Ky Alta Handicap	        1		
Northlands Park	6/19/2010	8	 Western Canada Handicap	1		
Northlands Park	5/29/2010	8	 Allowance Optional Claiming    1		
Fonner Park	4/17/2010	10	 Baxter Stakes	                2		
Northlands Park	8/19/2009	3	 Maiden Special Weight	        1		
Northlands Park	7/3/2009	3	 Maiden Special Weight	        3

[str]

Str, what are some of the thoughts that a history as the one below would bring to your mind? It's for No Hesitation, a 5 year old who races at Hollywood Park this Thursday. The horse was never worse than 3rd in his first eight starts, but never better than 3rd in his 7 starts since. Did he lose his competitive edge?

Northlands Park    8/25/2012    11     Westerner Handicap            9        
Northlands Park    8/11/2012    8     Allowance Optional Claiming    7        
Woodbine    5/6/2012    8     Vigil Stakes - Gr. 3            6        
Northlands Park    6/17/2011    7     Allowance Optional Claiming    3        
Northlands Park    5/22/2011    5     Allowance Optional Claiming    3        
Fonner Park    5/1/2011    8     Allowance                    7        
Remington Park    10/10/2010    10     Oklahoma Derby                    4        
Northlands Park    8/21/2010    10     Canadian Derby - Gr. 3            1        
Northlands Park    7/31/2010    7     Count Lathum Handicap            1        
Northlands Park    7/10/2010    7     Ky Alta Handicap            1        
Northlands Park    6/19/2010    8     Western Canada Handicap    1        
Northlands Park    5/29/2010    8     Allowance Optional Claiming    1        
Fonner Park    4/17/2010    10     Baxter Stakes                    2        
Northlands Park    8/19/2009    3     Maiden Special Weight            1        
Northlands Park    7/3/2009    3     Maiden Special Weight            3

He raced twice as a 2 year old. Put away for 8 months, ( my guess is shins but it could have been a knee or something like that, but either way, should have and did come back fine). He ran fine as a 3 year old including the 4th in the Okla. Derby. Was given 7 months but that very well could have been just the end of the year and giving him the winter off in hopes of coming back for a productive 4 year old year. He needed to train for 3 of those months at least so if he was injured he only got 4 months for it. That could have been to clean up a knee but again, either way, the races chosen suggests that the connections felt he was just fine.Then he gets 11 months after only 3 races. This is where I get lost. It makes no sense to run back in a grade 3 off of 11 months when he got beat in 2 optional claimers last year. I don't get it. So, a couple of questions. Did he change trainers? The careful well thought out plan to slowly increase competition went out the window in 2012.
I am not so sure that his competitive edge left because the horse did not want to compete . It very well could be that the horse was put in impossible spots and has lost his confidence, therefore his edge to compete at his highest level. Typically, those types, if dropped down far enough , quick enough, can win only running a so so effort and that win revitalizes there willingness to compete, which he once had.
However, if infirmities have made him not as good and the trainer is a low % person that does not spot their horses well, that could well be the biggest problem the horse has.
If that is the case, something like a drop and blinkers on, or a change in distance that gets the horse near the lead ( Kindest Cut) will wake the horse up and get the horse happy with himself and allow him to find the courage he once had ( Wizard of Oz). I lol but that really does work.
Hope that helps.

[mrginandtonic]

The M/L on No Hesitation is 20-1, and when I looked at the form, these are the questions that I have and I would like to get your input.

This race is optional claimer for $65000 going 6.5f. This horse is one of the two that are trained by Doug O'Neill. The other one is Mensa Heat (M/L 6-1). Mensa Heat is up for claims while No Hesitation is not. Mensa Heat is still an ok horse IMO, but he is not what he used to be. He ran 50 races so far as a 6 yo, and he hasn't won at all this year in 9 races ( placed twice and show 4 times). No Hesitation on the other hand is off of a six months layoff and the last time he raced, he lost by 36 lengths going 1 mile 1/16. The race before that was 6.5f and he lost by 7 lengths. His highest Beyer figure for last two years was 72, while in 2010, he ran a high of 94. Looking at his past performances, he has had multiple long layoffs and the trainers had tried various distances. So to me, I think that there is something physically wrong with the horse. Yet, this horse is not for claims. So, why?? This race is not an easy race for this horse to come back IMO, unless the trainer knows something that is not obvious on the form. Also, when horses have multiple long layoffs, what do you make of that?? Thanks in advance. (sorry if these questions have been asked before).

[str]

The M/L on No Hesitation is 20-1, and when I looked at the form, these are the questions that I have and I would like to get your input.

This race is optional claimer for $65000 going 6.5f. This horse is one of the two that are trained by Doug O'Neill. The other one is Mensa Heat (M/L 6-1). Mensa Heat is up for claims while No Hesitation is not. Mensa Heat is still an ok horse IMO, but he is not what he used to be. He ran 50 races so far as a 6 yo, and he hasn't won at all this year in 9 races ( placed twice and show 4 times). No Hesitation on the other hand is off of a six months layoff and the last time he raced, he lost by 36 lengths going 1 mile 1/16. The race before that was 6.5f and he lost by 7 lengths. His highest Beyer figure for last two years was 72, while in 2010, he ran a high of 94. Looking at his past performances, he has had multiple long layoffs and the trainers had tried various distances. So to me, I think that there is something physically wrong with the horse. Yet, this horse is not for claims. So, why?? This race is not an easy race for this horse to come back IMO, unless the trainer knows something that is not obvious on the form. Also, when horses have multiple long layoffs, what do you make of that?? Thanks in advance. (sorry if these questions have been asked before).

Could you scan his PPs so I could see them?

Something is just not adding up. Has he had multiple trainers? Is the owner the original owner?

I will be happy to answer all of those questions but a form would be oh so helpful.

[mrginandtonic]

His trainers were related. Now is being trained by O'Neill. I don't think the owner has changed. Also, how do I upload the PP?

[mrginandtonic]

....

[mrginandtonic]

ff.jpg

[mrginandtonic]

sorry STR, don't know how to do this. this is the best i can do.

[Dark Horse]

Thanks for the great answer, str. I can't believe you got all that from just that list.

mrginandtonic, when you click 'go advanced' at the bottom of the page (when you post a reply), you'll see a section where you can attach files on the next page. From there you can select it from your computer.

[JakeLc]

I'll comment on a couple of things. As for not being in for a tag,some owners just don't want to risk losing their horse.
This horse won some stakes for this owner and maybe for some sentimental reasons she doesn't want to risk losing him.
As far as bringing him back in a tough spot, this is probably about as easy as it can get for a horse who is a multiple race winner and not going to be entered for a tag.
One of the conditions is for horses who haven't won a race in over a year which he qualifies for.

[mrginandtonic]

thanks dark horse. here is the form.

[str]

I'll comment on a couple of things. As for not being in for a tag,some owners just don't want to risk losing their horse.
This horse won some stakes for this owner and maybe for some sentimental reasons she doesn't want to risk losing him.
As far as bringing him back in a tough spot, this is probably about as easy as it can get for a horse who is a multiple race winner and not going to be entered for a tag.
One of the conditions is for horses who haven't won a race in over a year which he qualifies for.

The print is real small but do I see that he is a H or horse, not a gelding? If so, and if the owner has owned it( did not seem to be the breeder but you never know) since the early stages, the owner probably has plans to breed this guy when he is done racing. Owners like that usually bounce around with a few trainers towards the end of the horses career because they think it's the trainer not the horse. I would think that the owner gave this horse to Doug along with another horse or horses that Doug would really want to train. He will give this guy a try and , what the hell, you never know if you radically change the horses surroundings, training pattern , etc. things happen, but in this case, not very often. Jake is right about the condition book. N/W of a in a year sounds easy but think about it, many monsters that have been off a while are eligible. That type of condition is a bear trap more often than not. An optional claimer is probably as easy as they will find, like a 2 other than, but Hollywood is not the place to look for easy . In Md. , this horse would have a chance, and certainly other places, but he probably needs 30K to 35K types at least if not more to be able to win with the effort he currently has in him. With his confidence way down, his real effort is only a % of what he probably has in him but without being happy, and maybe a change of scenery will allow that, you won't get his best effort at this time. He might think he's giving his best effort, but he is not.

[str]

thanks dark horse. here is the form.

Thats great.

Still assuming, which is all I can do, my guess is what I stated about giving the horse to Doug. He is the flavor of the month and if the owner wants to breed this guy, and I' ve seen alot of those types back in the day, the dreams of rekindling greatness are still present in the owners mind. Doug will give it a shot but I have to think that the owner brings more to Doug than just this horse. Otherwise, I would think he would politely decline and try and point the owner in a direction that gives the horse a shot.

I totally get the wanting to sprint him, probably twice and then go 2 turns, blks. on drop him in against lesser and give him a shot to win. At least that's what I would do, so we will see. Might need to ship out of Hollywood to find that easier spot without a tag. Is there such a place?

[JakeLc]

I took a quick look in the book and didn't see any optionals for less than 62K running short etc so if you want to avoid being in for a tag I guess all you can do is enter and hope you avoid some dropper. I don't know what they put up as extras.

[mrginandtonic]

Thats great.

Still assuming, which is all I can do, my guess is what I stated about giving the horse to Doug. He is the flavor of the month and if the owner wants to breed this guy, and I' ve seen alot of those types back in the day, the dreams of rekindling greatness are still present in the owners mind. Doug will give it a shot but I have to think that the owner brings more to Doug than just this horse. Otherwise, I would think he would politely decline and try and point the owner in a direction that gives the horse a shot.

I totally get the wanting to sprint him, probably twice and then go 2 turns, blks. on drop him in against lesser and give him a shot to win. At least that's what I would do, so we will see. Might need to ship out of Hollywood to find that easier spot without a tag. Is there such a place?

thanks for your answer. Maybe Golden Gate would be an easier spot. Anyway, while we are that race, which horse would you pick as the most likely winner??

[str]

I took a quick look in the book and didn't see any optional s for less than 62K running short etc so if you want to avoid being in for a tag I guess all you can do is enter and hope you avoid some dropper. I don't know what they put up as extras.

Mr. Gin suggested Golden Gate. That makes sense. One more time in this one and stretch out in an optional ( as cheap as you can find) claimer. Still would go Blks. On, but I have always been solid with that.

Here I go training again.

[str]

thanks for your answer. Maybe Golden Gate would be an easier spot. Anyway, while we are that race, which horse would you pick as the most likely winner??

I only gave it a glance but how do you get past Fast Bullet? Will he really be 3-1 in here. Again, just glancing but could any of these others run that close in a Grade 1?

Seems like the race was written just for Bob. Do they typically right the race with nw/2 of 10,000 or a in a year(he misses by 2 weeks there), etc. all the time? If so, all good, if not, then it was structured for this horse. That happens often enough to accommodate those types of horses but as a trainer you must be aware of subtle changes in the terms of conditions. I learned that early on when I filled a race with a big purse with a 3 other than. The overnight comes out and Debby's Turn is there( real nice filly in the late 70s). Hahaha. We did run 3rd and I owned the horse so at least I got paid as well as schooled. Never walked into that again though.

[JakeLc]

Digging around a little I found out he was the Alberta Horse of the Year and the owner is a woman who is very attached to her horses. Given that I wouldn't expect to see him in for a tag.

According to the trainer, in his last race of 2011 " he tore his back end up a little bit"

[mrginandtonic]

Digging around a little I found out he was the Alberta Horse of the Year and the owner is a woman who is very attached to her horses. Given that I wouldn't expect to see him in for a tag.

According to the trainer, in his last race of 2011 " he tore his back end up a little bit"

Interesting, so may be that explains why this horse is not for a tag.

[mrginandtonic]

I only gave it a glance but how do you get past Fast Bullet? Will he really be 3-1 in here. Again, just glancing but could any of these others run that close in a Grade 1?

Seems like the race was written just for Bob. Do they typically right the race with nw/2 of 10,000 or a in a year(he misses by 2 weeks there), etc. all the time? If so, all good, if not, then it was structured for this horse. That happens often enough to accommodate those types of horses but as a trainer you must be aware of subtle changes in the terms of conditions. I learned that early on when I filled a race with a big purse with a 3 other than. The overnight comes out and Debby's Turn is there( real nice filly in the late 70s). Hahaha. We did run 3rd and I owned the horse so at least I got paid as well as schooled. Never walked into that again though.

I agree, Fast Bullet is the horse to beat in this race. Thanks.

[Dark Horse]

About that back end. Any added thought about that, str? I read that Dutrow liked to claim horses that ran poorly because of back end stuff, because he knew he could improve them. I also remember O'Neill gave I'll Have Another some type of electric (shock?) therapy to the back end before the Derby.