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I think you nailed it with it used to being the Flamingo.I think the 7f race was the Bahamas. One thing to also consider when these horses eventually try 2 turns for the first time ( the horses from the Juvenile obviously have already been 2 turns) is teaching them to change leads those extra amount of times during the race for the added turn. STR can discuss what's involved with that far better than I can.
Without the help of the replay( it did come on but for me, it was too jumpy to see anything until well after the break) Hansen lost the race at the gate. What I mean by that is that he stumbled and veered in at the break . That caused Ramon to get him back underneath himself and get back to moving forward. Hansen took that opportunity to basically "run off" from there. Ramon tried to get him to relax from the 3/4 pole and down the backside but Hansen had no interest in that. The fractions of 23.64, 22.03 and 24.54 tell the story well. The 22.03 killed his chance today.
Question for Jake: Is there not much run up for a flat mile out of the chute at Gulfstream? I looked at a few mile chute charts and I even saw a 25 flat first 1/4. I never saw the pole from the head on angle prior to the race starting and my replay was no help early.
Had the race been two turns, the first turn might have helped the horse to relax a bit as he settled in down the backside. Maybe, and maybe not. But it quickly turned into a running off sprint and I am actually somewhat surprised that he finished as well as he did. At the 3/8s pole I thought he might be last. All in all, he did not do that bad.
As to the winner, and not wanting to take anything away from him, he had the box out of the chute. The race came up as perfect as it possibly could have for him. And the sloppy track with Crypto and Bernardini in his breeding was a gift. Let's see what happens next race . But he did run well today.
I just realized that this thread has me watching all these races again.
OH MY !
Too Funny.
I have the runup at 5 feet
Originally Posted by JakeLc
That makes perfect sense.
When I saw a :25 first 1/4 out of a straightaway chute, it had too be.
Thanks Jake!
Sorry make it 10 feet but that's still not much at all
In his first three races Hansen didn't run such a fast second fraction. The inability or ability to relax of young horses has come up before in this thread. Would you say it was mostly inexperience?
What a difference a year makes. Mucho Macho Man absolutely delivered for Ramon the day before:
“It was the absolute perfect trip," Dominguez noted. "We were right on the outside of the speed. He handled himself so well. He gave me the feeling every step of the way that whenever I was ready to ask he was ready to go. He gave me so much confidence. I was just a passenger today. You can really tell how much he’s grown up since I rode him in the Belmont. Back then, he was just a big skinny horse that had a lot of maturing to do. Now he looks like he’s grown up and has everything figured out.”
Interesting... So the race was set up like a sprint, which should have favored Hansen, but it didn't because he didn't relax (after a bad start). This seems quite a complex learning experience for a horse. How does he process this? Or is it just a better energy distribution that comes with experience? It's almost as if he battled adversity in two stages in this race. First he went all out after a bad start, then he ran out of gas, but then he showed a lot of spirit at the end. What a deal. So when the jockey asked him for more, he responded. But when the jockey had asked him to go slower, he didn't respond. lol
Dominguez took Hansen right up to Algorithms after the race. They walked side by side (not too close) for a while. It seemed a little odd to me, so I was wondering if that would have been by design. Would it make sense that he wanted Hansen to get a good look at the other horse (now that both are pretty much in the Derby)?
And, as a trainer, are you happy with his development so far, aside from raw talent? Do you like him as a speed horse, or would you prefer him just off the pace?
Last edited by Dark Horse; 01-30-12 at 09:58 AM.
I just realized that this thread has me watching all these races again.
OH MY !
Too Funny.
Is the ability to relax or not inexperience?
Yes. Although just like with humans, you will have your laid back easy to teach to relax horses as well as your keyed up types that need plenty of practice to be able to really understand it.
Mucho Macho Man: Ramon is hopeful that he has taken it to a new level with maturity. Having read my previous posts about outside position , the box, etc., you all know and so does Ramon, that the acid test will be when he is down inside and pinned or in between and pinned. If he can deal with that, he has indeed matured and moved his game way up.
Interesting... So the race was set up like a sprint, which should have favored Hansen, but it didn't because he didn't relax (after a bad start). This seems quite a complex learning experience for a horse. How does he process this?
The race would not have set up like a sprint had it not been for Hansen's refusal to rate. That almost certainly came from him simply getting shook up leaving the gate. His previous 3 races had all been clean of any problems. He got 23 and change, 47 and change in the B.C. race and was relaxed. Yesterday was a messed up break and a run off. The 23 and change yesterday was actually much faster than that with the timer starting after 10 feet. For comparison sake to the B.C. race, it would be like he went 22.8/ 45 . Had he done that in the B.C. he would have gotten smoked. But he relaxed and had 2 turns to help him relax that much more.
Hansen is taught and probably has been since day one to relax as he gallops around. If you watched Luck last night you saw the horse blow out through the lane. They are not taught to blow out down the backside. Most horses will naturally go easier until they hit the stretch and then want to pull the rider to go faster through the lane.
Hansen understands this as much as he can but never having had to overcome anything before, the race yesterday was his inexperience and ultimately a self destruction. Simply put, he had a meltdown mentally when faced with adversity.
He will be better prepared next time. He will hopefully learn from this and be more prepared next time. How well the horse processes the experience will be revealed when he is put in a similar situation again. Can he learn from it and become better for it or not? No way of knowing from our view until he is asked to deal with it next time. If he is one dimensional, he will not. That's what separates the pretty good ones from the real good ones.
It's almost as if he battled adversity in two stages in this race. First he went all out after a bad start, then he ran out of gas, but then he showed a lot of spirit at the end. What a deal. So when the jockey asked him for more, he responded. But when the jockey had asked him to go slower, he didn't respond. lol
That's right. Welcome to pulling your hair out from training a young horse.
Dominguez took Hansen right up to Algorithms after the race. They walked side by side (not too close) for a while. It seemed a little odd to me, so I was wondering if that would have been by design. Would it make sense that he wanted Hansen to get a good look at the other horse (now that both are pretty much in the Derby)?
Ramon was probably talking to the other jock. It is not by design but if it works out that they pull up together, the jocks usually talk in big races. Ramon might have been talking to Hansen as well, trying to get the horse to think about what he did. Might sound goofy but maybe he was trying to get a point across to the horse. Riders talk to the horses all the time in the morning, trying to get them to stay calm and relax if that is an issue. Sometimes,in the afternoon as well.
When a horse gets tired like that and again, they are really nice horses, the jockeys will give them a minute to catch there breath before having them come back.
This should be done for all tired horses but races become ho hum to jocks unless the trainer has mentioned it to the rider in the past.
And, as a trainer, are you happy with his development so far, aside from raw talent? Do you like him as a speed horse, or would you prefer him just off the pace?[/quote]
Without knowing the horse at all, it is hard to say. There is so much more that those close to the horse know than I possibly can.
From what I see, he wants the front end. While experience may change that somewhat, chances are, it will not. Just an educated guess though without being around him. If he would learn to relax, it would be a tremendous accomplishment to get him to do this before the Triple Crown. The risk would be rating him in an upcoming prep race and risk him getting blown out. The reward is if he can lay second and reserve some energy, he will be much better for it.
The trainer already knows the answer to this. He knows if there is a good chance he will settle a bit or not. However we do not. So when he runs back, we will get the answer. Others that observe him daily will have an idea as well. With all the press coverage, the question will be asked. Is he one dimensional or not?
If it was me, I would definitely want him just off the pace. Sometimes though, it's not for us too decide.
So far, the trainer has done a great job with him. I mean, he won the B.C. race and was 2 year old of the year. The next race will very interesting.
Thanks again, str. Great to watch these races and have every related question answered like this.
Quick question about loading time. I just watched a race at Santa Anita where all horses were loaded into the gate, except one. That last horse took 3 1/2 minutes to load. He just didn't want to go in. At what point does that become unfair to the other horses that are waiting in the gate? Is there a time limit? Sure enough, the horse went on to win the race in a photo finish. lol
Here is how it works. The horse was terrible loading today. He will (should) go on a "starters" list. The starter will inform the trainer that he has made the list. Any horse on that list cannot be entered in any race in the U.S.A. until he gets off the list. The list follows the horse to protect the public. The horse will be required to go to the gate in the morning multiple times (solely at the discretion of the head starter) and practice walking in and backing out or "standing" as we call it. It will probably take 5-6 trips spending 10-15 minutes each time to get the horse able to load ,then back out and load again without a problem. Once the horse can do this and the problem is hopefully solved, the horse will be removed from the list and will allowed to be entered.
At what point does that become unfair to the other horses that are waiting in the gate?
Probably after about 30 seconds. The horses are primed to go, are fully aware of the race getting ready to start and are all geared up.
While a situation like this can happen to any trainer, and I do not know who trains this one, it does not happen very often to the better trainers. By better, I mean the trainers that REALLY do things right. If the horse has a history of this, I might take that back. Again, it can happen to any trainer at any time but because the best of the best know that, and if you are really trying to do things as perfect as you can, you occasionally stand a horse BEFORE there is a problem, maybe once or twice a month and well between races, just to make sure.
Nothing pissed me off more than a half assed trainer making my horse stand in the gate because the trainer of another horse is an idiot. More times than not, it can be prevented and there are warning signs along the way. This might sound unfair or harsh towards the trainer involved . I am not saying that this is what happened. All I know is the odds, and odds are it could have been prevented. Maybe not, anything can set a horse off, but odds are, it had warning signs attached to it.
Is there a time limit?
No. When they are at the gate, the boss is the head starter. He trumps the Stewards at the time. It is the head starters call as to run or scratch.
Little things like that can get you beat after weeks and months of work. If it was nobody's fault, you chalk it up to the fact that it is a tough game. But when it was incompetence of others that gets you beat, that is tough to take. It was those types of trainers that if I spotted something like that, and there horse had any ability at all, chances are, I would be claiming it or others in there barn in the near future.
Typically, the very inside horses take the worst of it as far as breaking goes once the race finally starts. That is another reason that you stand your horse for several minutes between races even though your horse is fine.That might be you in the one hole next time, so you try to be better able to handle it. The best offense is a good defense in that case. If you prepare for the things that you can't control, like that, it hopefully won't affect your horse as much as it affects the other horses. That's an edge.
I was watching the process and about two minutes into the horse going back and forth I thought he would be taken out of the race for sure out of fairness to the other horses. Then I started to admire the patience of the loading crew. I guess it goes with the territory, but it didn't seem quite right that this horse would end up winning the race; by a nose. Here is link to race and info, which goes off about 5 minutes after post time (3 1/2 minutes to load the last horse). http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...2/2/2/4/race-4
Thanks for the link.You can see the head starter wearing the white hat, walking back to his spot about 25 feet in front of and on the inside of the gate. He picks up the button used to open the gates and then the race starts. It is a rare occasion when the head starter will leave his post and go back behind the gate but that time lapse warranted it. I am sure that he made the right call. After all, the damage was already done as to the timing of the start. The guys really try and be fair and don't take scratching lightly. Neither does management and they employ the starter. That is a tough call. He probably handled everything the way it should have been .
The guys at the gate are probably as important a group of truly unsung heroes that get no attention as there can be .They are great! l could write a thousand words and it would not be enough credit given to those guys. I have nothing but respect for what they do . An awesome group of guys that truly care about the horses.
Blinkers on/blinkers off...
What type of information do you take from blinkers on? I used to think the trainer didn't want the horse to be distracted, but you mentioned recently that a certain horse with blinkers on (change), and stretching out after two sprints, was likely to go to the front (even though that horse was more of a closer). So obviously you took a lot more info from the blinkers, which makes me wonder how much more can be read from that information, when it is combined with other information on the form.
Blinkers on is a big piece of info. You are correct that it is to help keep the horse's focus "forward" and not be distracted. The distraction is a mental distraction like a mind wandering. That type of distraction leads to a deceleration. It should always be carefully considered.
If for instance, I had made up my mind that I was going to try and beat a odds on favorite in any given maiden race and I was going to box three horses in an exacta, if there was a blks. on horse that showed any ability within it's previous races at all and I mean any, especially a Z pattern, something like 4th by 4, 6th by 6, 8th by 8, 5th by 5, I would be hard pressed to not use that horse as one of my three. The horse would probably be 10-1 or more and that is a classic type of horse that will pay 20-40 dollars or more to win. Just try and make sure that the forward movement in the latter part of the race was not due to a front runner who was 5 in front and totally quit, thus creating an accordion effect that bunched all of the horses together while none of them actually made up any ground on there own.( hope that's not too confusing)
When you combine blks. on with a stretch out , it is almost assured that the horse will show much more speed than it normally would. That was the case last Saturday. When I looked at that race , I thought that the eventual winner would not be able to show as much early speed on dirt, especially having never raced on it before, as he did. Figuring him to lay 3rd at best, I also assumed that the 4-5 shot would not be as sharp for that race as he was for his previous race. When I saw the 2 sprints and blks. on the horse that I talked about, I could only imagine that he was going to show more speed than he had shown in previous races and the instructions would have been to outrun and park the favorite early on the 1st turn or make him kill himself to outrun you. As it turned out, he did show plenty of speed and outran the favorite to the first turn which was the premise for suggesting him , but when the grass horse showed as much speed as he did, the jockey on the blks on horse took a hold of him so as not to be in the middle of a 3 horse duel. He sat 3rd and made a small challenge at best but he was done by the 1/2 mile pole. Had he been on the lead and only the favorite outside of him as I planned he would have run better but the way he gave it up on the far turn, he would not have won anyway IMO. Once the favorite quit, which was an easy prediction, nobody else was much of a challenge and the speed horse drew out.
Prayer For Relief ran a horrible 3rd and he looked out of sync running that same type of Z pattern that I spoke to earlier. I would expect him to improve dramatically in his next race as long as it is at a different race track. He did not seem to be handling that surface very well. If he ships for his next race, he is probably a decent play if the price is right.
Back to blinkers, many trainers will run a young horse without them even if they are fairly certain that they might need them. I did that often times. They do this to allow the horse to gain experience. If winning first out is not a trainers priority, and those stats are provided, that is something to watch for. Checking each trainers stats for 1st time blks. is also important for reasons that I just mentioned.
Blinkers off, at least for me, is not much to pay attention too. It's almost like a failed experiment . You can usually see how the horse did prior to wearing them so you be the judge but for me, blinkers on always catches my eye. It is at least as important as 1st lasix IMO.
Bottom line, if you are playing pick 3s,4s,exactas or whatever, and you can afford to toss in a blinkers on horse , especially one that fits the above criteria, do it ! It might not work every time but when they pay 30.00 , not all of them need too.
A quick note on 1st time Lasix:
I saw where someone wrote that 2nd lasix is more important than 1st lasix "because the horse has never had the drug before and the trainer might not know how much to give" or something too that effect. I guess that has happened to some trainer out there but if a horse is receiving lasix because he actually bled last time, you can rest assured that the horse worked with lasix since bleeding.( I can't speak for a bad trainer, those people are liable to do anything). At least that is how most trainers play it. What you are trying to do is to give the horse the confidence to finish strong in a workout and not feel that flu like feeling that horses feel when they run and bleed during the race. Once the horse has worked, you get a vet to scope the horse and see if there are any signs of blood in the lungs or wind passage. If not, you are good to go. If so, you might consider giving the horse 4-6 weeks off before working it again so the body can fully recuperate. Typically you will give them 3-5cc's for a workout. You might up that to 5-7cc's for a race but rarely more than that to start off. So giving them too much is really not something that will make 2nd time lasix better than 1st. Many times 2nd time lasix improvement is due to the horse willing to fully exert itself again after realizing that it will no longer bleed.
If a horse is receiving 1st lasix but bleeding in it's last race is not the sole reason, a trainer will start the horse off with a small dose (3 cc's probably). Either way, over dosing 1st out is not likely a factor. Honestly, as a trainer, you would have to be an idiot to let something like that happen.
Thanks. More food for thought. Much appreciated.
I was a little puzzled by Mike Smith's ride on Utopian yesterday at Santa Anita. This was a 13-1 longshot, who finished second behind a 11-1 longshot Slim Shadey. Usually, when a horse falls back as Utopian did (jockey's hands suggest he wasn't asking much of the horse yet), he's done. But in the stretch Utopian came all the way back and just ran out of track. That left me wondering why Smith let the horse fall back. He did have a lot of horse, but didn't act like it earlier on. The link below has a link to the video.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...-in-san-marcos
2 Questions before I answer,
Can you show me her PP's?
If not:
Has Smith ridden this horse before?
Smith had ridden Utopian once, in first race back in May 2010. After that Chantal Sutherland got the ride for eight races until yesterday.
Sorry, I don't have the PP's for this race. Just this info: http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbH...069®istry=T
Last edited by Dark Horse; 02-12-12 at 01:57 PM.
You are spot on with where is hands were and the fact that he had not yet asked the horse to run. It is hard to see but I think that he was torn between moving a bit earlier than he wanted to and waiting when he started to get swallowed up around the turn. It is hard to see but when he goes behind the tent top he was still sitting but I think that he might have been asking somewhat as he came out of the tent top. That is at 1:44 on the tape. It just seems as though his seat and posture have changed a bit but you can't see his hands because of the inside horse. Then almost immediately he is back sitting on the horse again, waiting for the inside horse to clear so he can make an inside run.
So , I think that he might have tried to move once the outside horse got a neck on him and just before the inside horse got in front of him, but the horse did not respond instantly. That is why I asked if he had ridden him before. It seems as though he was fooled a bit by the horse not responding to his command right away, if indeed that is what took place when I was unable to see.. Some horses don't. They need several strides to get themselves together. Others are almost push button.
So, it is hard to tell for sure but once the horse found it's stride, it ran very well. If he did ask the horse while behind that tent top and that is correct, he was fooled by not being as familiar with the horse as he could have been. If he just chose too wait, he could take some heat for that. I did see the horses ears go way forward just as soon as it made the lead galloping out and if you watch, as soon as the horse has the winner go back in front, just keep watching them gallop out,, the ears go back again, almost to say, ok let's go some more.
Without seeing the form, I am wondering if this horse hangs when it makes the lead and that played into him wanting to wait as long as he did.
Hope that helps but I am not quite sure .
Is the horse a hanger ?
That helps a lot, str. I had both horses as closers, but the Slim Shadey jockey said the decision was made to go to the front because there was no early speed in the race.
My impression was that Smith could have won this race, based on the lapse followed by the burst of speed at the end. There seemed to be a moment of confusion, and your explanation would explain that well.
With the help of the guidelines you have given here for watching races I've learned a lot. It's often possible to tell the winner of the race as they enter the final turn.
I didn't know that. That's good to know. So basically this was a communication error, something that didn't click as it could/should have. I thought jockeys knew when they have a lot of horse, but unfortunately they only interview the winner afterwards. I hope Smith gets another shot with this horse. Utopian gave him a lot at the end there. (and, like you said, was even ready to go for more. lol)
Thanks.
Jockey colonies. Where you aware of different cultures at different tracks? Are all tracks equally above water, or are some more prone to behind the scenes wheeling and dealing? I'm looking at tracks like Aqueduct and Santa Anita and feel that they're clean as a whistle, but I'm less sure about Fair Grounds. Not sure if this has to do with the book I read on Cajun Racing, which seems to reflect a culture where some form of creative cheating is almost expected or accepted as 'part of the game'. I don't mean to focus on the dark side of racing, and intend this question more as a look into possible cultural differences. What is accepted in one culture is frowned upon in another; that kind of thing.
Last edited by Dark Horse; 02-21-12 at 08:00 AM.
Are some tracks more prone to wheeling and dealing?
If the purses are too small, and what I mean is a purse that can't possibly spread enough money around for people to be able to make a living, I would say that corruption of some sort is almost inevitable. Not all the time. Not all that often. But let's do some math. Purse is 3,000. Winner gets 1,800. Jock grosses 180.00. Now he pays his agent probably 10-20% and his valet( the guys that come out and saddle the horses but in the jocks room and behind the scenes, clean the riders tack, clean his boots, help him get dressed when it's freezing or sloppy outside,make sure he has the right silks, etc.) also gets a piece , say 5- 10 % so the winner makes 125-130 bucks. How are they going too survive? So I have no physical proof but common sense tells me all I need to know.
I should share a story about a horse that I sent to Charles Town some time back when the pots where weak. And for that story, I did have proof.
Fairgrounds?
At Delta Downs in 1990 Sylvester Carmouche was the jockey on a horse that ran in a race with dense fog. It was a mile race that started out of the chute where the head of the stretch is located. It is a 6 furlong track. The field broke, he pulled his horse up just after breaking, waited in the thick fog, heard the field coming as they rounded the far turn, and started running. He won the race by 24 lengths being eased up. He had lost by 8 lengths in his previous start. He was DQed and ultimately thrown off the track.
I know that Delta Downs is not the Fairgrounds but it's close enough. I have too admit that if I was going to run a horse down there I would not trust those guys as far as I could throw them. Maybe that's not fair, it probably isn't, but too me, you gotta live with your rep.
Of all the places around, I would tend to think that it is a pretty "cliquey" place. Again, unfair, but that is how I feel. Might not be the worst, but probably close, at least it is in my book.
Part of the game?
I would say no to that. I am sure that there are many very up and up people there that try very hard to make sure that things are right.
My answers might sound like they contradict one another but I am talking more in terms of being able to trust a jockey that I have never met before, as well as getting A+ treatment from any vets or blacksmiths, etc. that I might need . This is along the lines of, if I was not right there for every minute to oversee what was taking place. Where, for instance, I sent horses up to Monmouth or Phila. Park, even Penn. Nat. or Delaware, it never crossed my mind that anything of any kind might not be 100% in my horses, my owners, and my best interest. It always was. But if it was the Fairgrounds, well, it would have been a pretty important horse and race, and I would have factored in how I felt about the place, and either made it a point to be there, or would have chosen another venue.
Excepted in one or frowned upon in another?
That thought process existed in the 70s and 80s to some degree IMO. I don't think it did much past that though. That goes for almost everywhere. Simulcasting has brought sophisticated audiences to very unsophisticated places. As a result, it is no longer tolerated. Players won't stand for it, and track owners won't either. Most of it has been rooted out I think.
Hope that helps.
Thanks str. That fog anecdote is also mentioned in the Cajun Racing book. I didn't want to 'see' things that weren't there, so good to know that you would be somewhat suspicious as well, coming from your background.
My study is now getting into the part of recognizing fatigue factors. All horses tire, but the rate at which they tire is crucial. This area seems to have some elements that are just as surprising as factors that define 'a lot of horse'. One positive, the other negative. So instead of studying winners and horses that ran big, I'm now scanning my records and race footnotes for horses that 'were done at the half, didn't have the necessary kick, weakened or faltered, etc.' I wouldn't have thought that any study of any sport could be so engaging and interesting. The only downside? A race can have a heart attack type of intensity. lol A whole football or basketball game squeezed into a minute or two. Anyway, that fatigue stuff is strong. I don't know how long this part of the research process will take, but may have some related questions down the line.
Last edited by Dark Horse; 02-23-12 at 02:03 AM.
Grace Hall starts her 3 year old campaign today in the G.2 Davona Dale Stakes at Gulfstream.
Go get em Grace !!
I just saw where Algorithms has a broken splint bone and will have surgery. This almost certainly was not something that came up overnight. However, in Todd's defense, the Derby trail is a three month stretch where horses need to be able to hold together. By no means is a broken splint bone a life threatening injury. If things go as planned he will be fine and race again, probably late this year or very early as a four year old. Typically, splint bones can become irritated and cause a short choppy stride. They are painful to the touch and on harder surfaces, similar to shin splints you might get playing basketball or tennis outside on pavement. They can be treated successfully in about 1/2 the cases with laser treatments or electromagnetic' s but once they get to the point where they fracture, surgery is the only viable option.
From a bettors perspective, it is a shame that he won't run soon because he was a solid play against with all the praise and hype thrown on him by the media after winning a race on an off track with a dream trip, around one turn and catching a horse that was not 100% ready to go.
Last edited by str; 02-29-12 at 08:18 AM.
Consortium just shelved as well. http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...ith-ankle-chip
For Algorithms it throws such a wrench in what could have been to miss all three TC races.
Loved Union Rags in that race though. And check out Sky Blazer(#8) a couple races earlier at Gulfstream. Huge burst of speed early on, and then jockey quickly dropped him back... lol http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci.../2/26/9/race-9
Sky Blazer moves up after the first 1/4 because the jock on the lead tried to walk the dog( slow the pace to a crawl). After an opening 1/4 in 23 and change, the 2nd split was just under 25 and Edgar , realizing what the lead jock was doing, would not allow it. Had he not done that, the 2nd split would have been at least 25 if not more and would have changed the complexion of the race. That is what is meant by "having a clock in your head". Edgar changed the shape of that race to suit his horse and that is why it worked out so well for him.
An excellent ride by Edgar.
That's interesting. I thought he was testing how much horse he had and backed off when he got that burst of speed. That's a new dimension to the 'clock in the head'. Until now I had thought that was about the distance to the horse up front and the finish line. I was watching that race live and could hardly believe my eyes when he came up that fast only to drop back just as fast again. Smart rider.
It is rarely if ever that a jock tests out how much horse he has with a burst of speed. If they did, many horses would run off at that point and not come back to the rider( settle down).
Things like this that I try and point out all lead to the same specific key element within a race. It is the pace. That is why it is vitally important to try and get a feel for the race setup prior too it's running.
I have talked about those 2 guys that I knew that were professional gamblers several times. I remember a race that I was in at Pimlico once that had two pure speeds horses in it. They were going into the gate and my horse loaded ( was one of the speeds) and as the other speed horse loaded, it did something dumb and had to be backed out and examined. Then it was announced that it was a late scratch. That was going to delay the race a couple of minutes. I looked back from my box near the front, and up into their box that was several rows higher and down some. Both of them were scrambling out of there chairs and running to the machines to cancel there tickets and bet on my horse . The complexion of the race had taken a whole new shape. I was now the lone speed, at Pimlico, going long , with a great speed rider aboard. Those two guys looked like they were running for there lives. I started laughing so hard , I had to explain it to my owner. Very funny and yes , my horse walked the dog and could have gone around again if it needed too.
Pace makes the race, plain and simple. I can't say it often enough.
Last edited by str; 03-03-12 at 09:10 AM.
Originally Posted by TrickFinger
Good stuff so far,
Str you raise an interesting point. I am newer to the site and not sure how to look up post number #5. In a situation where you are having trouble deciding between two horses would you compare workouts to decide?
Str, also what do you consider the most important couple of things when picking races?
1. Str you raise an interesting point. I am newer to the site and not sure how to look up post number #5.
I have a questions and answers thread in the horse racing forum. I have answered many questions within it. Post # 5 within that thread will shed some more light on workouts.
2. In a situation where you are having trouble deciding between two horses would you compare workouts to decide?
I would not consider workouts in trying to decide between 2 horses unless they had worked together and I had seen it or had clocker's notes that Mike mentioned.
3. Str, also what do you consider the most important couple of things when picking races?
In no order they would be:
1. Race shape (pace)
2. Competition between each other and why the previous result occurred.
3. Any changes( equipment, drugs, trainer, jockey, surface condition( fast, muddy, etc.) and I would consider if a particular horse or horses had an obvious liking for the particular track (horses for courses angle)
4. Layoffs
5. Bias (if any)
6. odds
7. Appearance on the track if you were able to see them and you had previously seen them warm up so you had something to compare to.
I wrote this in another thread but thought it was a great question and copied it to this thread.
I hope it helps.
how do i insert a picture....
In case you don't think that it is a small world, I have had a poster PM me and after trading a few notes back and forth, it seems as though I trained some horses for a guy that his aunt was married to for a while.The guy had a breeding farm.
A long story short, he had bred a horse that was claimed away from him after a start or two and he asked me to claim it back for him. I did and she went on to be a pretty nice horse. Here is her winning the Caesars wish Stakes at Pimlico.
this is so weird...how can post like thatIn case you don't think that it is a small world, I have had a poster PM me and after trading a few notes back and forth, it seems as though I trained some horses for a guy that his aunt was married to for a while.The guy had a breeding farm.
A long story short, he had bred a horse that was claimed away from him after a start or two and he asked me to claim it back for him. I did and she went on to be a pretty nice horse. Here is her winning the Caesars wish Stakes at Pimlico.
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