1. #911
    fitguy67
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    Re: Line movement--its importance (or lack thereof)...

    here's a little discussion i was involved in a few days ago in the MMA sub-forum...i feel it equally applicable to all sports-betting markets...including baseball

    seems identical in essence to the point made above by banker, but we're talking about a fight rather than a stick&ball game

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumdeal View Post
    Andrew Craig vs Camozzi really sticks out here for me. I believe Andrew rebounds after his loss to Barnatt. Waiting to see if the line moves in my favor and will be taking Craig.
    Quote Originally Posted by fitguy67 View Post

    early substantial softening on Craig price...from -130 opener to +105 in less than 3 hours at 5d

    my inclination is that if your original analysis is sound, you shouldn't AUTOMATICALLY turn your nose up at a cheaper-price/larger-payout...perhaps the best course is to not change course and thankfully risk 36% less for a crack at the same target amount OR risk the same amount as originally planned for a crack at a 36% bigger prize

    if you liked it at the opener...you should love it 36% more now...unless you have reason to believe that the early wave of $ chasing camozzi knows something you didn't factor into your original analysis

    the error that many make in this game that leads to much ...is to AUTOMATICALLY assume that money...whether early, middle, or late...is somehow "smarter" (aka. "less stupid") than we are

    it IS however, a good idea to see if there is anything "off" with whatever made Craig stand out for you...early money not agreeing with you should make you re-view but NOT automatically abandon (or--even more drastically--reverse) your original view...if nothing appears to be off, you'd be stupid to not accept the bargain that's presented itself (and may very-well swing back before the event...leading to another source of )
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilbo86 View Post


    I will say that late money, especially in high profile fights, is usually a little on the dumb side and running with the herd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilbo86 View Post

    Conversely, early money especially close to line opening is usually smart money. Thats the way i see it anyway

  2. #912
    Big Bear
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    Quote Originally Posted by No coincidences View Post
    Talk about bizarro world -- Pads getting blanked by Jordan Lyles the day after hammering Max Scherzer. Go figure.
    Jordan Lyles has some good stuff.

  3. #913
    fitguy67
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    similarly, here's something i posted just a few days ago about consensus-% numbers and the RLM concept that emerges when they're combined with line-movement observations...again, it was precipitated in another sports-betting context (a women's tennis match, of all things)...but I feel the issues raised are applicable to any bettable event

    again, i come down firmly on the side that focuses on the boring "ignore all the patterns in the tea-leave scum and smoke trails...and pay exclusive attention to the percentage likelihood of the event cashing for you vs. the percentage buried in the best book-price available to you on that event"...

    Quote Originally Posted by fitguy67 View Post

    the main thing wrong with most of these sorts of "consensus %" figures is that they're generally based on % of the number of total bets in a market...not on % of the total $-value bet in that market...

    the latter would be FAR more useful than the former (as markets are clearly not "one bettor/one vote" nor even "one bet/one vote"...they are a much different animal: "one dollar/one vote")...but the books of course do NOT release hard data on this, on purpose...but seem to be happy to release figures of questionable/self-serving "accuracy" on the far less useful/far more misleading former

    noting "reverse line movement" (RLM) when price changes are going counter to changes in PUBLICIZED bet% is a feeble attempt to know when the BIG (assumedly smart) money bet by the handful of well-informed/well-capitalized goats is going on the opposite side of the majority of poorly-informed/low-capitalized sheep...

    i suspect many such cases of obvious (to those who like to think of themselves as "sharp") RLM are "manufactured" or at least magnified to attract/"trap" RLM-chasers on the side desired by the books...whether to simply balance their books=reduce their risk or in keeping with their own profit-seeking risk-accepting "opinion" on the market...

    compared to the books who actually HAVE the $-figures...even the sharpest of cats who try to ESTIMATE them based on information released by their enemy, the books...are, well...square as fukk...

    perhaps even squarer than those of us who just ignore/suspect as manipulated bullshit all published consensus-% figures (and massagings thereof)...and choose instead to rely on the fundamentals of the matchup in relation to the market prices available
    taken together my last two posts can be summarized/intelligently extended as follows:
    1. money that moves prices may or may NOT be smarter than you
    2. consensus numbers ain't worth a bucket o' warm spit...
    3. BTCL is not important...
    4. developing accuracy in determining your likelihood of winning a bet (aka. capping) is important
    5. line-shopping is important (the greater is the mismatch between your capped win% and that locked into the price="your edge"...the better)
    6. once you've locked in what your capping and shopping skills say is a good deal...u've done your job...let money (smart and stupid) move the price around till it closes...and let the game be played...
    7. how smart you are is NOT determined by where the price closed versus the price you got...or by the result of tonight's game...but over your entire betting career...your long-term yield will tell you just what overall "edge" your perception/shopping skills has generated...think in terms of seasons of sports (not games) as the building blocks of your record
    Last edited by fitguy67; 04-15-14 at 12:38 AM.

  4. #914
    Big Bear
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  5. #915
    fitguy67
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    hey NC, i'll gladly replace both #911 and #913 above with "nm" if it's distracting/cluttering...

    i thought it might be apropos the earlier RLM-nattering aimed at TommyK...banker explaining how he value-shops for STL games (intentionally ignoring line-movement, other than how it affects his edge), and the groundless flak he got over it...and your increasing dismay over BTCL...

    but now that i look at it...may be a bit much for a primarily "picks" thread

    say the word and i'll clear it out

  6. #916
    JBC33
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    New York Yankees -1.5 RL. +100, risking .5u, YTD (1-0) +1U

  7. #917
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitguy67 View Post
    similarly, here's something i posted just a few days ago about consensus-% numbers and the RLM concept that emerges when they're combined with line-movement observations...again, it was precipitated in another sports-betting context (a women's tennis match, of all things)...but I feel the issues raised are applicable to any bettable event

    again, i come down firmly on the side that focuses on the boring "ignore all the patterns in the tea-leave scum and smoke trails...and pay exclusive attention to the percentage likelihood of the event cashing for you vs. the percentage buried in the best book-price available to you on that event"...



    taken together my last two posts can be summarized/intelligently extended as follows:
    1. money that moves prices may or may NOT be smarter than you
    2. consensus numbers ain't worth a bucket o' warm spit...
    3. BTCL is not important...
    4. developing accuracy in determining your likelihood of winning a bet (aka. capping) is important
    5. line-shopping is important (the greater is the mismatch between your capped win% and that locked into the price="your edge"...the better)
    6. once you've locked in what your capping and shopping skills say is a good deal...u've done your job...let money (smart and stupid) move the price around till it closes...and let the game be played...
    7. how smart you are is NOT determined by where the price closed versus the price you got...or by the result of tonight's game...but over your entire betting career...your long-term yield will tell you just what overall "edge" your perception/shopping skills has generated...think in terms of seasons of sports (not games) as the building blocks of your record
    Looks very accurate. I will have more time to eyeball this later. Thanks for posting it.

  8. #918
    No coincidences
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitguy67 View Post
    hey NC, i'll gladly replace both #911 and #913 above with "nm" if it's distracting/cluttering...

    i thought it might be apropos the earlier RLM-nattering aimed at TommyK...banker explaining how he value-shops for STL games (intentionally ignoring line-movement, other than how it affects his edge), and the groundless flak he got over it...and your increasing dismay over BTCL...

    but now that i look at it...may be a bit much for a primarily "picks" thread

    say the word and i'll clear it out
    No -- I'm glad you did. I'm always up for both discussion and reflection here. And if you aren't adjusting, you're dying in this game.

  9. #919
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    MIN +115 (1U to win 1.15)
    CLE +143 (1U to win 1.43)
    TB -104 (1.04U to win 1)
    PIT -108 (1.08U to win 1)

  10. #920
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    2-0, +3.07U last night
    37-30, +4.18U thread


    Nice to wake up to that Pads' comeback victory from last night.

  11. #921
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    Im on two of those already, yeah! BOL to us tonight!

  12. #922
    mikmik
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    Any love for Philly, stl , fish +1.5,Rangers and angels?
    Last edited by mikmik; 04-15-14 at 11:36 AM.

  13. #923
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    Quote Originally Posted by No coincidences View Post
    MIN +115 (1U to win 1.15)
    CLE +143 (1U to win 1.43)
    TB -104 (1.04U to win 1)
    PIT -108 (1.08U to win 1)
    Betting again on Hughes hehe...

  14. #924
    bababooey13
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    Quote Originally Posted by No coincidences View Post
    Fvcking Phil Hughes.

    Last time. Never again.

    What a piece of shit.

  15. #925
    jihadvillager
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    Cleveland Cancelled Due to rain, no makeup date yet.
    Last edited by jihadvillager; 04-15-14 at 01:34 PM.

  16. #926
    JBC33
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    Doubleheader for Wed. Cubs @ NYY

  17. #927
    Jesus33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jihadvillager View Post
    Cleveland Cancelled Due to rain, no makeup date yet.
    thats some BS its sunny outside

  18. #928
    CappinTerp
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2daBank View Post
    Can't fukkin believe that I got -110 before lineups and I didn't get best price.. Mf'ers love betting against teams on streaks for some reason, I prefer winning w them till it ends. I guess if ya got the means to just keep firing against a team till they lose be my guest but that gotta get expensive sometimes!!
    Yea Bank I agree 100 %, one of my capping strategies : never bet on a hot team to loose and never bet on a cold team to win.!......................BOL

  19. #929
    PAULYPOKER
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    Bank's the type that'll show up when the dance is over and the girls are gone,Lol.............

  20. #930
    Sixla
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    Hey Coin, Brandon Gomes is now pitching tonight for Tampa, what do ya think?

  21. #931
    jihadvillager
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    my TB bet got autocancelled cause of the change- Tampa seems to be postponed because of rain. Unreal 2 plays both cancelled cause of game postponement. lol

  22. #932
    Sixla
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    don't matter TB game is postponed, along with 3 other games including Cleveland. Bummer.

  23. #933
    DALLASROB
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    Quote Originally Posted by No coincidences View Post
    SD -116 (2.32U to win 2)
    PIT +118 (2U to win 2.36)
    BAL +107 (1U to win 1.07)
    PIT looking like a W but 5Dimes has it as a cancel. Anything be done in these situations?

  24. #934
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    Quote Originally Posted by leetreaper View Post
    Betting again on Hughes hehe...
    Quote Originally Posted by bababooey13 View Post
    More like betting against Morrow, and the Twins are hot right now.

  25. #935
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    Quote Originally Posted by No coincidences View Post
    MIN +115 (1U to win 1.15)
    PIT -108 (1.08U to win 1)
    PIT -105 (1.05U to win 1)
    MIA +1.5 +100 (1U to win 1)
    Updated card so far.

  26. #936
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    Also lean Brewers and Dodgers, but passing on both.

  27. #937
    burmaldo
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    Giancarlo just sent that to the moon

  28. #938
    DALLASROB
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    Missed the MIA play

  29. #939
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    Mike Leake sticking me again.

    f\*\*k that guy.

  30. #940
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    Uhh come on Pit!!

  31. #941
    RavensFan2k3
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    Omg mike leake with a triple and now a homer!!!

  32. #942
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    Son of a bitch.

    Cole, you bum.

  33. #943
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    Quote Originally Posted by RavensFan2k3 View Post
    Omg mike leake with a triple and now a homer!!!
    Unbelievable.

    Seriously, this guy has just fvcked me over his whole career.

  34. #944
    pettifogger
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    Leakey bomb
    Quote Originally Posted by No coincidences View Post
    Mike Leake sticking me again.

    f\*\*k that guy.

  35. #945
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    And then of course, the Pirates strand runners at first and third.

    f\*\*k this.

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