Pinnacle for stateside players

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  • vyomguy
    SBR Hall of Famer
    • 12-08-09
    • 5794

    #211
    Originally posted by durito
    You are cheating players by giving them a price on a bet that they didn't ask for. That is not acceptable.
    I dont think its cheating. This will affect you in less than 5% of your bets unless you are chasing steam. They state their policy before hand. Take it or leave it. Case closed.
    Comment
    • Hareeba!
      BARRELED IN @ SBR!
      • 07-01-06
      • 37212

      #212
      Originally posted by vyomguy
      I dont think its cheating. This will affect you in less than 5% of your bets unless you are chasing steam. They state their policy before hand. Take it or leave it. Case closed.
      you're right

      don't go walking through dangerous neighbourhoods
      when you get mugged once in every 20 days you haven't really been mugged
      Comment
      • Hareeba!
        BARRELED IN @ SBR!
        • 07-01-06
        • 37212

        #213
        Originally posted by vyomguy
        This will affect you in less than 5% of your bets unless you are chasing steam.
        I'm tired of this crap about "chasing steam" and only those practising it will be affected.

        I've told Max how I (and I suspect most other serious punters) operate and asked him at least twice to say whether that is "steam chasing" by his definition. He hasn't even attempted to respond to the question.

        I do not chase "steam" if by that you mean my method is to bet when I detect a price or line movement is underway.
        Comment
        • durito
          SBR Posting Legend
          • 07-03-06
          • 13173

          #214
          Originally posted by vyomguy
          I dont think its cheating. This will affect you in less than 5% of your bets unless you are chasing steam. They state their policy before hand. Take it or leave it. Case closed.
          5% of your bets is the difference between being a huge winner and a loser.
          Comment
          • Hareeba!
            BARRELED IN @ SBR!
            • 07-01-06
            • 37212

            #215
            Originally posted by Max009
            We agree that players having more control over their bankroll is a great idea.

            Another thing I wanted to mention to you Hareeba is that for people concerned about your issue you can always use the Parlaymakers exchange to make your own offers. Here are the reasons that the Parlaymakers exchange is better than Matchbook:

            1. Much greater variety of events to wager on. At Parlaymakers you can put an offer on any event that Parlaymakers currently lists which means, early lines, a lot more soccer, cycling, nascar, golf, tennis, wnba, props, live wagering, all the major sports and then some. Parlaymakers probably has 5 times as many wagering opportunities as Matchbook. For a trader more events means more +EV opportunities.

            2. The Parlaymakers Exchange allows you to place multiple offers up to your total available balance. For example you have $500 then you can place a $500 offer on every event that Parlaymakers offers. Your offer amounts are automatically reduced as your offers are matched. If you try to do that on MB you would need $50,000. For a trader, more leverage equals more opportunity to get offers matched with less capital so you can take advantage of more +EV opportunities.

            3. The Dynamic offer function on the Parlaymakers Exchange allows your offer to automatically adjust with the base Parlaymakers line. Say you want your offer 1 cent lower than the Parlaymakers line which is at -105 so your offer is currently at -104. If the Parlaymakers line moves to -107 your offer automatically adjusts to -106. You can also set your offer to move or not move with spread changes. You could set your offer on an early line and it would constantly adjust all the way to game time. Set it and forget it. You can also make firm offers that don't adjust.

            4. For front end clients who only want to place wagers there is never a lack of liquidity. Parlaymakers will always take your action whether there are exchange offers or not. If there are exchange offers then you always get those first because they will always be better than the base Parlaymakers line. Any amount that is over the amount offered will be placed at the Parlaymakers(Pinnacle) line. That is why we say lines as good as Pinnacle or better guaranteed. Also, front end users have all the features of a normal book like parlays, teasers, and pleasers. At Parlaymakers we don't limit your wagering opportunities.

            Every serious trader on Matchbook or anyone who wants to make offers should at least be an active exchange member on the Parlaymakers exchange as well so you can maximize your +EV opportunities.
            Yeah good luck with that Max
            If there's anything that 10 years of online exchange betting has taught us it is that LIQUIDITY is everything
            How many have attempted to cut into Betfair's market with lower commissions etc and have fallen by the wayside?
            You may do it but imho it's a massive longshot to suggest you can challenge Matchbook on that front
            At least you have the current advantage of offering more markets than them so it's not like you having a Betfair to compete with
            Comment
            • durito
              SBR Posting Legend
              • 07-03-06
              • 13173

              #216
              I see you are taking $40,000 on NFL games. Surely you can handle bets like that.
              Comment
              • BigDaddy
                SBR Hall of Famer
                • 02-01-06
                • 8378

                #217
                Originally posted by durito
                I see you are taking $40,000 on NFL games. Surely you can handle bets like that.
                max how do we know that are funds are safe to play NFL or NCAAF sides for large amounts?

                how can you be booking this action?
                Comment
                • vyomguy
                  SBR Hall of Famer
                  • 12-08-09
                  • 5794

                  #218
                  Originally posted by durito
                  I see you are taking $40,000 on NFL games. Surely you can handle bets like that.
                  I dont understand how they can offer upto 40k in straight bets...but cannot offer decent limits for teasers and parlays...after all their site was created based on teasers and parlays off matchbook. They have $250 limits on teasers and parlays, whereas their limits for straight bets is $40,000. What a joke.
                  Comment
                  • durito
                    SBR Posting Legend
                    • 07-03-06
                    • 13173

                    #219
                    They can't. They can get unlimited max bets on one side without the line moving unless someone is hitting pinny too.
                    Comment
                    • vyomguy
                      SBR Hall of Famer
                      • 12-08-09
                      • 5794

                      #220
                      One month back their limits for straight bets was $250....now its $40,000....this is very suspicious. I wouldn't trust Parlaymakers for this sole reason. Even Bookmaker and Greek doesn't have such high limits.
                      Comment
                      • BigDaddy
                        SBR Hall of Famer
                        • 02-01-06
                        • 8378

                        #221
                        Originally posted by vyomguy
                        One month back their limits for straight bets was $250....now its $40,000....this is very suspicious. I wouldn't trust Parlaymakers for this sole reason. Even Bookmaker and Greek doesn't have such high limits.
                        that is a huge red flag


                        they upped their limits 160x

                        all they need is one player placing a big bet and winning and they are gone.
                        Comment
                        • vyomguy
                          SBR Hall of Famer
                          • 12-08-09
                          • 5794

                          #222
                          They have even stopped posting wager history now. There was a very low volume earlier....I wonder how is it now.
                          Comment
                          • BigDaddy
                            SBR Hall of Famer
                            • 02-01-06
                            • 8378

                            #223
                            Originally posted by vyomguy
                            They have even stopped posting wager history now. There was a very low volume earlier....I wonder how is it now.

                            yeah i mentioned that i saw about maybe 40 wagers for 5 days total when they were showing them and now they are not



                            who is this GP

                            who are they really?

                            i think they are the same as PM to be honest but i'm not 100% sure but it would not surprise me.
                            Comment
                            • noyb
                              SBR Wise Guy
                              • 09-13-05
                              • 971

                              #224
                              well, with regards to the limits: as i think durito already pointed out: any volume they can't handle they can just lay off. no profit in that obv, but no risk either. this does get a problem when someone first hits PM, and then hits Pinny a second later, but to make that worthwhile someone would first need to deposit a whole lot of k's at PM.

                              anyway, i get the point made about the business model and getting uneven action. on the other hand, not a whole lot of us are LT winners at Pinnacle anyway and we're not exactly betting the whole board either. why would it be any different over a large sample of customers over a large sample of bets at PM.
                              also, i'm speculating here, but if you've got the right software in place to track your customers: if you're PM, just hijack the bets of your clearly winning customers (the lines are there at pinny, with higher limits even), and don't lay off the bets of your losing customers, and you might actually make some money i would think.
                              Last edited by noyb; 09-07-10, 07:06 PM.
                              Comment
                              • Max009
                                SBR Sharp
                                • 10-13-09
                                • 439

                                #225
                                Originally posted by durito
                                You are copying pinnacle lines not their business model. It took them years to get the volume to be able to offer such low juice.





                                You are cheating players by giving them a price on a bet that they didn't ask for. That is not acceptable.
                                A market order style of ordering is not cheating. There is a lot more money traded everyday on world stock markets using market orders than there ever will be in sports betting.

                                I would guess you don't have much experience with that but that is the reality.

                                We are having a 7 page thread discussing it. It is clearly stated on the wagering menu.

                                Maybe we need to redefine what cheating is.... anything you don't like.
                                Comment
                                • Max009
                                  SBR Sharp
                                  • 10-13-09
                                  • 439

                                  #226
                                  Originally posted by Hareeba!
                                  No, it's okay mate .... before you enter the shop there's a sign saying BEWARE ... you may be CHEATED ... so because you've been warned it isn't cheating
                                  Your shameful lies only reflect badly on yourself.

                                  You just need to have a little more exposure to other things in the world besides sportsbetting.

                                  There is always more than one way to do things.
                                  Comment
                                  • BigDaddy
                                    SBR Hall of Famer
                                    • 02-01-06
                                    • 8378

                                    #227
                                    Max you are to my knowledge the only book in the world that does not allow the customer to decline the new line

                                    why is that?
                                    Comment
                                    • Max009
                                      SBR Sharp
                                      • 10-13-09
                                      • 439

                                      #228
                                      Originally posted by vyomguy
                                      What's the update regarding teaser limits?
                                      We increased them per your suggestion. I mentioned it earlier to $1000 with a max payout of $7500.
                                      Comment
                                      • Max009
                                        SBR Sharp
                                        • 10-13-09
                                        • 439

                                        #229
                                        Originally posted by vyomguy
                                        I dont think its cheating. This will affect you in less than 5% of your bets unless you are chasing steam. They state their policy before hand. Take it or leave it. Case closed.
                                        Well said.
                                        Comment
                                        • Max009
                                          SBR Sharp
                                          • 10-13-09
                                          • 439

                                          #230
                                          Originally posted by Hareeba!
                                          I'm tired of this crap about "chasing steam" and only those practising it will be affected.

                                          I've told Max how I (and I suspect most other serious punters) operate and asked him at least twice to say whether that is "steam chasing" by his definition. He hasn't even attempted to respond to the question.

                                          I do not chase "steam" if by that you mean my method is to bet when I detect a price or line movement is underway.
                                          Yes, you have stated you don't chase steam just that you always beat the line changes.....ok. You did say that the line almost always moves against you...so if your not watching line movement I think that is a very unlikely statement. So either you are making your plays based on line movement or you are not always ahead of every line movement naturally.

                                          In the case you are always ahead of the original line move it would have no affect on you anyway since you are placing your wagers before the line is moving.
                                          Comment
                                          • Max009
                                            SBR Sharp
                                            • 10-13-09
                                            • 439

                                            #231
                                            Originally posted by durito
                                            5% of your bets is the difference between being a huge winner and a loser.
                                            Why don't you tell us where you play so we can make a value comparison?
                                            Comment
                                            • Max009
                                              SBR Sharp
                                              • 10-13-09
                                              • 439

                                              #232
                                              Originally posted by vyomguy
                                              One month back their limits for straight bets was $250....now its $40,000....this is very suspicious. I wouldn't trust Parlaymakers for this sole reason. Even Bookmaker and Greek doesn't have such high limits.
                                              It's a big world out there. Greek and Bookmaker aren't the only people who have money.

                                              We asked our investors a simple question...do you think Pinnacle is making money....they said yes. We said if we copy them will we make money....a simple yes again. It is not nearly as complicated as you might think.

                                              This is a simple business, with essentially a solved equation. As long as there exists a proven mathematical edge it is the same thing as running a roulette table. It is only about getting a sufficient amount of iterations to cover the variance.
                                              Comment
                                              • Max009
                                                SBR Sharp
                                                • 10-13-09
                                                • 439

                                                #233
                                                Originally posted by BigDaddy
                                                max how do we know that are funds are safe to play NFL or NCAAF sides for large amounts?

                                                how can you be booking this action?
                                                Would you like the list of investors alphabetized with passport photos and home phone numbers....lol.

                                                You are funny BigDaddy. No one says you have to bet $40,000 to try us out.

                                                We take our customers one at a time. That is how we plan to build the business....we don't have crazy bonuses just solid great place to play with good value.
                                                Comment
                                                • Max009
                                                  SBR Sharp
                                                  • 10-13-09
                                                  • 439

                                                  #234
                                                  Originally posted by vyomguy
                                                  They have even stopped posting wager history now. There was a very low volume earlier....I wonder how is it now.
                                                  We are in the process of revising that so it will show total dollar amount accepted by sport type. We think that will be better for exchange users so they can see where the action is. Our overall volume is growing slowly.
                                                  Comment
                                                  • Hareeba!
                                                    BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                    • 07-01-06
                                                    • 37212

                                                    #235
                                                    Originally posted by Max009
                                                    Your shameful lies only reflect badly on yourself.

                                                    You just need to have a little more exposure to other things in the world besides sportsbetting.

                                                    There is always more than one way to do things.

                                                    Where have I lied Max?
                                                    Comment
                                                    • Hareeba!
                                                      BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                      • 07-01-06
                                                      • 37212

                                                      #236
                                                      Originally posted by Max009
                                                      Yes, you have stated you don't chase steam just that you always beat the line changes.....ok. You did say that the line almost always moves against you...so if your not watching line movement I think that is a very unlikely statement. So either you are making your plays based on line movement or you are not always ahead of every line movement naturally.
                                                      Max you have accused me of lying but not shown where.
                                                      Now you are putting words which I've never uttered into my mouth.

                                                      I have never said that I "always beat the line changes"
                                                      If you were to read more carefully what I have said you might actually understand my position.
                                                      And you may even favour me with a response to my question as to whether my mode of operation makes me a steam chaser by your definition.
                                                      I shop for the best price.
                                                      Now tell me if the price I elect to take is top of the market and it moves, which way is it more likely to move?
                                                      In my favour or against me?
                                                      If you fail to comprehend that you've obviously never been a punter.

                                                      Originally posted by Max009
                                                      In the case you are always ahead of the original line move it would have no affect on you anyway since you are placing your wagers before the line is moving.
                                                      huh?
                                                      Last edited by Hareeba!; 09-07-10, 07:50 PM.
                                                      Comment
                                                      • durito
                                                        SBR Posting Legend
                                                        • 07-03-06
                                                        • 13173

                                                        #237
                                                        Originally posted by Max009
                                                        Why don't you tell us where you play so we can make a value comparison?
                                                        I play at every book there is. At none of them am I assigned a price for my wagers after accepting that is worse than the price I selected.

                                                        The 5% number here is just some random guess. As Kats said, pinny moves a lot. I bet a lot of halves/live wagers where the market is volatile. I may want -105 but not -110. If I know this someone else surely does and they bet at pinny while I'm waiting for pm to accept and I get -110. No, that isn't gonna work for anyone that does this seriously.

                                                        Your steam chasing theory is complete crap as well. Pinnacle doesn't have any issue with steam chasing now do they? Pinny's model is predicated on them having access to sharp bettors who shape their line. Your policy assures you will receive zero action from sharp bettors (which I suppose is the only thing that might save you). That's not really copying their business model now is it?
                                                        Comment
                                                        • Max009
                                                          SBR Sharp
                                                          • 10-13-09
                                                          • 439

                                                          #238
                                                          Originally posted by Hareeba!
                                                          Max you have accused me of lying but not shown where.
                                                          Now you are putting words which I've never uttered into my mouth.

                                                          I have never said that I "always beat the line changes"
                                                          If you were to read more carefully what I have said you might actually understand my position.
                                                          And you may even favour me with a response to my question as to whether my mode of operation makes me a steam chaser by your definition.
                                                          I shop for the best price.
                                                          Now tell me if the price I elect to take is top of the market and it moves, which way is it more likely to move?
                                                          In my favour or against me?
                                                          If you fail to comprehend that you've obviously never been a punter.



                                                          huh?
                                                          Don't tell people we are cheating...that is not accurate.

                                                          You say if you elect to take the price at the top of the market.......presumes you always know where the top of the market is and are always making that play. If your plays are more evenly distributed, that is someties your right and sometimes your wrong, like what we would expect for the normal player....even a very good player might only be 55/45 then any the current policy actually might only affect 10% of your play at best and if on average only 4% (using the other posters number) having a line change within the XML versus the actual then we are talking for a very good player at most maybe .004 of your overall plays might be affected. Note a 50/50 player is not impacted at all. Which is not to say that the player would be worse off playing at Parlayakers even on these plays since the overall juice is lower than perhaps the play he would be getting somewhere else. Keeping in mind we are discussing strictly US players.

                                                          Your underlying assumption that the line is always going to move against you is what I disagree with if you are basing your wagering on handicapping versus line movement.
                                                          Comment
                                                          • Max009
                                                            SBR Sharp
                                                            • 10-13-09
                                                            • 439

                                                            #239
                                                            Originally posted by Hareeba!
                                                            Yeah good luck with that Max
                                                            If there's anything that 10 years of online exchange betting has taught us it is that LIQUIDITY is everything
                                                            How many have attempted to cut into Betfair's market with lower commissions etc and have fallen by the wayside?
                                                            You may do it but imho it's a massive longshot to suggest you can challenge Matchbook on that front
                                                            At least you have the current advantage of offering more markets than them so it's not like you having a Betfair to compete with
                                                            The difference is that we are building our exchange so that we eventually are the largest market maker in the exchange, so we are not dependent on the exchange. The exchange can grow organically as the front end volume grows so will the exchange and we won't have to look for market makers they will come all by themselves because they will see the opportunity to make money.

                                                            I am never of the opinion that everything that can be done has been done. No one is invincible.....you talk like Betfair which basically didn't exist ten years ago or Matchbook which is less than like 5 years old are unstoppable.
                                                            Comment
                                                            • increasedodds
                                                              SBR Wise Guy
                                                              • 01-20-06
                                                              • 819

                                                              #240
                                                              Do you guys have at least $50 million in capital? That's about the amount I'd think a book would want on hand to book $40,000 bets.

                                                              If you don't this is unlikely to end well.
                                                              Comment
                                                              • Hareeba!
                                                                BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                                • 07-01-06
                                                                • 37212

                                                                #241
                                                                Originally posted by Max009
                                                                Don't tell people we are cheating...that is not accurate.
                                                                you may recall that I did concede that "cheating" was probably a little harsh but that I was struggling to find another word to describe what you do. So I don't accept that it is a lie on my part.

                                                                Perhaps "mugging" is a better description.

                                                                Originally posted by Max009
                                                                You say if you elect to take the price at the top of the market.......presumes you always know where the top of the market is and are always making that play. If your plays are more evenly distributed, that is someties your right and sometimes your wrong, like what we would expect for the normal player....even a very good player might only be 55/45 then any the current policy actually might only affect 10% of your play at best and if on average only 4% (using the other posters number) having a line change within the XML versus the actual then we are talking for a very good player at most maybe .004 of your overall plays might be affected. Note a 50/50 player is not impacted at all. Which is not to say that the player would be worse off playing at Parlayakers even on these plays since the overall juice is lower than perhaps the play he would be getting somewhere else. Keeping in mind we are discussing strictly US players.

                                                                Your underlying assumption that the line is always going to move against you is what I disagree with if you are basing your wagering on handicapping versus line movement.
                                                                Once again you are attributing to me words which I've never used ("the line is always going to move against you")

                                                                I seem to be having trouble getting it through to you that it is far more likely that the best price in the marketplace is more likely to move downwards than upwards.

                                                                It is simply a matter of supply and demand.

                                                                If Pinnacle has +100, Matchbook -102, Greek and the rest have -105 and the Pinnacle price moves are you seriously saying it is at least as likely to go to +102 than -102 ?

                                                                Logic and my experience has proven that any move will be against me almost every time. Maybe 95%/5% at best.

                                                                Now if a player is asking for that +100 and it moves to -102 the player is worse off at PM than having hit Matchbook at -102 because your commission is greater than Matchbook's but unlike everywhere else you don't give him the opportunity to bet at Matchbook when the price has moved at Pinnacle.

                                                                Am I a "steam player"?
                                                                Last edited by Hareeba!; 09-07-10, 08:40 PM.
                                                                Comment
                                                                • Max009
                                                                  SBR Sharp
                                                                  • 10-13-09
                                                                  • 439

                                                                  #242
                                                                  Originally posted by durito
                                                                  I play at every book there is. At none of them am I assigned a price for my wagers after accepting that is worse than the price I selected.

                                                                  The 5% number here is just some random guess. As Kats said, pinny moves a lot. I bet a lot of halves/live wagers where the market is volatile. I may want -105 but not -110. If I know this someone else surely does and they bet at pinny while I'm waiting for pm to accept and I get -110. No, that isn't gonna work for anyone that does this seriously.

                                                                  Your steam chasing theory is complete crap as well. Pinnacle doesn't have any issue with steam chasing now do they? Pinny's model is predicated on them having access to sharp bettors who shape their line. Your policy assures you will receive zero action from sharp bettors (which I suppose is the only thing that might save you). That's not really copying their business model now is it?
                                                                  You have a great argument...you would rather pay -110 on most of your wagers rather than -104 for example in the NFL because less than 1% of the time you might not get exactly the wager you wanted.....you might get -106 instead of -104 so clearly always using -110 is superior. I have got it.

                                                                  Also, keep in mind the line can move in your favor in which case on these less than 1% cases we are discussing you would actually get a better price than what you thought.

                                                                  Bottom line.....you get the same line as Pinnacle at Parlaymakers. Obviously, some of you would rather pay more and play some where else. Ok, it is not really logical but that is your right.

                                                                  We have stated very clearly the great value at Parlaymakers and how it works. You can listen to the customers in the thread who actually play at Parlaymakers and enjoy the site or you can play somewhere else.
                                                                  Comment
                                                                  • durito
                                                                    SBR Posting Legend
                                                                    • 07-03-06
                                                                    • 13173

                                                                    #243
                                                                    Originally posted by Max009
                                                                    You have a great argument...you would rather pay -110 on most of your wagers rather than -104 for example in the NFL because less than 1% of the time you might not get exactly the wager you wanted.....you might get -106 instead of -104 so clearly always using -110 is superior. I have got it.

                                                                    Also, keep in mind the line can move in your favor in which case on these less than 1% cases we are discussing you would actually get a better price than what you thought.

                                                                    Bottom line.....you get the same line as Pinnacle at Parlaymakers. Obviously, some of you would rather pay more and play some where else. Ok, it is not really logical but that is your right.

                                                                    We have stated very clearly the great value at Parlaymakers and how it works. You can listen to the customers in the thread who actually play at Parlaymakers and enjoy the site or you can play somewhere else.
                                                                    Yes you've got it all figured out. I can play at pinnacle now, so I don't really see what it is you want to offer. Someone sharper than me could certainly abuse you though.

                                                                    How many max NFL bets are you expecting this week?
                                                                    Comment
                                                                    • Max009
                                                                      SBR Sharp
                                                                      • 10-13-09
                                                                      • 439

                                                                      #244
                                                                      Originally posted by Hareeba!
                                                                      you may recall that I did concede that "cheating" was probably a little harsh but that I was struggling to find another word to describe what you do. So I don't accept that it is a lie on my part.

                                                                      Perhaps "mugging" is a better description.



                                                                      Once again you are attributing to me words which I've never used ("the line is always going to move against you")

                                                                      I seem to be having trouble getting it through to you that it is far more likely that the best price in the marketplace is more likely to move downwards than upwards.

                                                                      It is simply a matter of supply and demand.

                                                                      If Pinnacle has +100, Matchbook -102, Greek and the rest have -105 and the Pinnacle price moves are you seriously saying it is at least as likely to go to +102 than -102 ?

                                                                      Logic and my experience has proven that any move will be against me almost every time. Maybe 95%/5% at best.

                                                                      Now if a player is asking for that +100 and it moves to -102 the player is worse off at BP than having hit Matchbook at -102 because your commission is greater than Matchbook's but unlike everywhere else you don't give him the opportunity to bet at Matchbook when the price has moved at Pinnacle.

                                                                      Am I a "steam player"?
                                                                      Yes, that is the whole point of steam betting to try and find a book that hasn't moved its line with the market yet. I didn't say it was immoral. Nothing wrong with trying to get the best price and nothing wrong with a book banning it.

                                                                      Do you think most books will consistently let you bet their line right before they change it in the direction of the market every time? This is how people get put on delays and what they complain about all the time.

                                                                      You are too used to betting at Pinnacle where they are the ones normally moving the line so they don't worry about steam chasers.

                                                                      You must be nuts to think we are going to be slightly delayed behind Pinnacle and offering their lines and let people just take shots at us every time the Pinnacle line moves. It is comical you would suggest it.
                                                                      Comment
                                                                      • durito
                                                                        SBR Posting Legend
                                                                        • 07-03-06
                                                                        • 13173

                                                                        #245
                                                                        It's comical that you think you are copying pinnacle's business model and thus should be successful. There is a reason established shops like 5dimes etc can't deal pinny for more than $500 (or $50 really). It took pinny years to be able to take those limits at that juice. You really think you can succeed with $40k nfl limits? That's quite the jump, from $250 to $40,000.
                                                                        Comment
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